You Don't Get Your Moral Sense from Jesus or Allah.

[MSizer]

To illustrate that our moral judgments don't come from scripture, I'd like for anyone to state how Jesus or Muhamed instructed us to act in the following 2 dilemma:

1. You are driving your new car and you pass a young girl with a bleeding wound in her leg. You don't think she is at risk of dying within a short time. Her bloody leg would stain the upholstry and would cost you $200 to clean. Do you have an obligation to pick her up and bring her to a hospital? Why?

2. When you get home, you have a letter from OXFAM stating that a $25 donation will save 50 children from fatal dehydration in Sudan. Now you can save 50 lives for $25. Are you obligated to donate? Why?

Why the altruistic pull in the first scenario with only one victim who will not die and cost you $200, while a lesser altruistic pull in the second scenario where 50 children can be saved for only $25?

What does your scripture tell you about this?

 

[sandandfoam]

What does your scripture tell you about this?

Why would you presume a God you don't believe in can be trapped in a book?

 

[skydivephil]

Indeed those that claim that shomehow theism leeds to "objective morality" and I hve heard so many Muslim and Xtinas claim this; need to expalin why neithe rMuslims nor Xtians agree on moral issues. There are Muslim that think suicide bombing is haram and otehrs that it is a duty. There were Xtians that passionatley defended slavery and others that opposed it. People of the same religion clearly have different moral outlooks. Clearly then morality doesnt come from religion.

 

[MSizer]

Why would you presume a God you don't believe in can be trapped in a book?

The same way a geenie can be trapped in a bottle. It doesn't make any sense. The reason I specified "text" is becuase once you allow people to theologize, the boundaries and rules go right out of the window and the special pleading always makes its way in. So, I figure by asking specifically about scripture, at least we have some boundaries around our debate.

 

[sandandfoam]

The same way a geenie can be trapped in a bottle. It doesn't make any sense. The reason I specified "text" is becuase once you allow people to theologize, the boundaries and rules go right out of the window and the special pleading always makes its way in. So, I figure by asking specifically about scripture, at least we have some boundaries around our debate.

So the boundaries have more to do with you than the religious believers who think morality comes from God?
Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

 

[MSizer]

So the boundaries have more to do with you than the religious believers who think morality comes from God?
Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

How so? I think I'm missing your point. The boundaries I'm talking about are logic and epistomolgy. In my experience theology has often taken the liberty of trying to use them to argue a claim, then in the next breath expect to be permitted to defy them.

 

[cardero]

What does your scripture tell you about this?

I know exactly what you mean MSizer, I must have searched that whole book for comic inking techniques, a well designed workout program for a guy my size, my weight and my age and how to effectively remove cat throw-up from carpet.

 

[sandandfoam]

How so? I think I'm missing your point. The boundaries I'm talking about are logic and epistomolgy. In my experience theology has often taken the liberty of trying to use them to argue a claim, then in the next breath.

You Don't Get Your Moral Sense from Jesus or Allah. To illustrate that our moral judgments don't come from scripture...

See the tension?

One can believe in Allah and believe that morality comes from Him, illustrating that moral judgments don't come from scripture is irrelevant. You might as well illustrate that moral judgments don't come from Sports illustrated

 

[IndigoStorm]

There is no doubt we don't get our moral sense from Jesus or Allah, as this would mean that all earthlings who do not believe in these fictional characters (to me anyway), would automatically be without morals.

We do not walk around with a sign attached to us proclaiming our religion ... well some people wear wristbands and have bumper stickers on their automobiles.

I have no less than three rosaries hanging on my computer desk and I am an atheist. Why? Well I think they are very pretty, that's why!

 

[MSizer]

See the tension?

One can believe in Allah and believe that morality comes from Him, illustrating that moral judgments don't come from scripture is irrelevant. You might as well illustrate that moral judgments don't come from Sports illustrated

OK, I see the discrepancy now, but it's etymilogical for my purpose in this case. In general, if you believe in Allah, you also believe that the Koran is his word, which is perfect. Also the bible is supposed to be the authoritative text on God's will. Yes I admit there are believers who don't think this way, but those types of believers are probabably going to the the ones that agree, at least in part with the OP anyway.

 

[sandandfoam]

There is no doubt we don't get our moral sense from Jesus or Allah, as this would mean that all earthlings who do not believe in these fictional characters (to me anyway), would automatically be without morals.

You and msizer both seem to have solid views about the God you don't believe in. What about Christians who believe, for example, in universal salvation? Such a Christian might well believe that their morals come from their God. Given that you don't believe in, and so don't know their God - how can you state definitively what does or does not emanate from said God?

 

[MSizer]

You and msizer both seem to have solid views about the God you don't believe in. What about Christians who believe, for example, in universal salvation? Such a Christian might well believe that their morals come from their God. Given that you don't believe in, and so don't know their God - how can you state definitively what does or does not emanate from said God?

Ahh, but that's one of the problems in the first place. Nobody can seem to even agree what god is or wants in the first place, yet many claim to follow his command.

 

[sandandfoam]

Ahh, but that's one of the problems in the first place. Nobody can seem to even agree what god is or wants in the first place, yet many claim to follow his command.

Do you think all atheists disbelieve in the same God?

 

[IndigoStorm]

There are over six billion people in this world and each person has his or her own thoughts about God. How can a person know for sure what He is really like?

Because "atheist" sometimes appears on forms asking for a religious preference, people sometimes mistake atheism for a religion. Even people who know that atheists do not believe in a god will sometimes still assume they share a common set of beliefs or principles. This is not the case.
Atheism is not an organized belief system (or "lack-of-belief system", as some may joke), but rather a word that can be associated with anyone who does not believe in any god. Because these individuals come from all walks of life, there is no reason to assume that one atheist is like another in any way, except in his or her disbelief in any god.

In some parts of the world, particularly the United States, atheists are often assumed to be scientifically minded or politically liberal. While a scientific viewpoint may lead some people to abandon supernatural belief systems, many more atheists were never religious to begin with. As to the political claim, one should keep in mind that individuals who feel underrepresented are often more liberal on average than those who do not. But, as with all blanket statements about people sharing a single characteristic, these assumptions about atheists are only stereotypes, and will very frequently be incorrect.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

OK, I see the discrepancy now, but it's etymilogical for my purpose in this case. In general, if you believe in Allah, you also believe that the Koran is his word, which is perfect. Also the bible is supposed to be the authoritative text on God's will. Yes I admit there are believers who don't think this way, but those types of believers are probabably going to the the ones that agree, at least in part with the OP anyway.

But what exactly do you think "perfect" or "authoritative" means in this context?

I'm not sure about Muslims, but I think only a very small minority of Christians would consider their holy book completely inerrant or 100% literally factual. I don't know of any at all who consider it a complete repository of all knowledge.

Edit: I think a larger number would consider their holy book "perfect" in the sense that it perfectly fulfils the purpose for which it was intended, but then that brings up the question of what that purpose is.

 

[MSizer]

Do you think all atheists disbelieve in the same God?

"Invalid Checksum. Question caues brain to blue screen".

No, I don't believe in any of the gods eelsam imagines, while indigo denies the existence of any of the gods LittleNipper imagines.

I think.

 

[Baydwin]

Why the altruistic pull in the first scenario with only one victim who will not die and cost you $200, while a lesser altruistic pull in the second scenario where 50 children can be saved for only $25?

What does your scripture tell you about this?

I'm pretty sure Jesus would want you to do both, but then I'm not a Christian so don't know if my view counts.

 

[cardero]

Why would God have to contend with morals? Is murder rampant in heaven? Are angels stealing cable? Is fornication and adultery a problem?

 

[Morse]

To illustrate that our moral judgments don't come from scripture, I'd like for anyone to state how Jesus or Muhamed instructed us to act in the following 2 dilemma:

1. You are driving your new car and you pass a young girl with a bleeding wound in her leg. You don't think she is at risk of dying within a short time. Her bloody leg would stain the upholstry and would cost you $200 to clean. Do you have an obligation to pick her up and bring her to a hospital? Why?

2. When you get home, you have a letter from OXFAM stating that a $25 donation will save 50 children from fatal dehydration in Sudan. Now you can save 50 lives for $25. Are you obligated to donate? Why?

Why the altruistic pull in the first scenario with only one victim who will not die and cost you $200, while a lesser altruistic pull in the second scenario where 50 children can be saved for only $25?

What does your scripture tell you about this?

Could you rephrase that?

How exactly does this illustrate how religion does not come from a higher power? I see that you are getting at the fact that somebody who does not believe in a higher power would/could do these acts anyway, but that proves nothing.

What would stop an omniscient/omnipotent being from making you an unwitting pawn?

 

[Kathryn]

I'm still trying to figure out why MSizer used the scenarios he used in the OP to try to define, or disprove, the teachings of Jesus or Allah.

I would be much more likely to help the girl bleeding on the side of the road rather than send the money to some far flung organization, because I am naturally skeptical and I prefer to help causes and people that I am a bit closer to - I like to actually be able to measure the help that I give.

But why do I want to help anyone? Or - better question yet - why do I help someone when I DON'T want to help them? Because I believe that Jesus commands us to be good neighbors, to treat others as we want to be treated, and to have mercy on others.

So even though I don't particularly want to get involved in a situation that I'm going to delve into tomorrow (an irascible, ornery, unreasonable old woman who needs help because she is nearly bedridden and has no family and no friends willing to help her), I feel that Jesus would expect me to step in and do what I can - even though, honestly - I don't want to get involved.

I am not doing it for any reward - I am doing it because I believe God commands me to. I think it would be wrong for me NOT to help her if I can.

An atheist might also feel compelled to help her - I hope so. However, I can't judge why an atheist would do so - I can only tell you why I am going to do so.

An atheist may not get their sense of moral direction from faith or religious teachings, but that doesn't mean others don't.