Abrahamic Faiths Only: True Abrahamic Religion

[phuti]

There is but one God, the Creator of the universe; and as to other gods/religions, if they contributed anything to the happiness of mankind, each and everyone of them afforded it only according to His appointment, and not by their own power.

And that is the true Abrahamic religion. Whether Jew or Muslim, or Christian, or whatever, God is but ONE! And Christ is the point at which many will stumble and fall, and take offense, for when they think it to be foolishness, it turns out to be the plan and goodness of God, that no man may think righteousness to be attainable by wisdom, or customs, or deeds, but by only belief that He is the Christ of God.

 

[NoahideHiker]

So could you point me to any verses in the Jewish scriptures that states salvation can only be attained through the Moshiach? Can you point me to any verses in the Jewish scriptures that tells there would be but a single correct religion (other than Judaism for the Jew)?

These two things are religious lynch pins so there should be multiple examples of these messages clearly stated in the preceding Jewish scriptures.

 

[phuti]

Isaiah 2 says:

Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say,

“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.


This is one of the many that speak of the Messiah; sounds like all nations shall go to the Lord, this Messiah, and go by His ways. That is the one correct religion. For Jews saught signs, but in that they erred and fell from the grace of God. Other nations saught wisdom, but they erred for they despised the wisdom and the power of God, which is this Messiah.

In Daniel, in the vision, "One that is like the Son of Man, is brought before the Ancient of Days, and to Him all dominions and kingdoms are given." Is that not the Messiah to whom all things are given?

It's also written in Micah 4. Infact, all prophets spoke of this Messiah.

Isaiah also wrote in Chapter 11,
" And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious. "

It says that all the nations of the world, will seek Him.

 

[NoahideHiker]

Isaiah 2 says:

Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say,

“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.


This is one of the many that speak of the Messiah; sounds like all nations shall go to the Lord, this Messiah, and go by His ways. That is the one correct religion. For Jews saught signs, but in that they erred and fell from the grace of God. Other nations saught wisdom, but they erred for they despised the wisdom and the power of God, which is this Messiah.

In Daniel, in the vision, "One that is like the Son of Man, is brought before the Ancient of Days, and to Him all dominions and kingdoms are given." Is that not the Messiah to whom all things are given?

It's also written in Micah 4. Infact, all prophets spoke of this Messiah.

Isaiah also wrote in Chapter 11,
" And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious. "

It says that all the nations of the world, will seek Him.

All very inspiring verses and all very hopeful indeed. But none answer what I requested. None of this says the worship of, following of or even the belief in the Moshiach is a requirement for salvation. Further these verses only prove to strengthen the argument that it is not in the Moshiach that salvation is found but in the Torah and in the law therein and the following of them. A quick examination of christianity will show that while it is a valid path to Hashem IMHO it can hardly be considered to adhere to the Torah and the Law as Isaiah says will happen.

Further Isaiah 2 and 11 both show what the messianic times will be like. The Moshiach will come and through his actions there will be a universal knowledge of G-d and of Torah. A perfect world.

[looking out the window] No perfect world and no moshiach yet. So I continue to wait.

 

[phuti]

What did David mean when he said:
"The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

That this Messiah, would be He through whom the people will appeal to God for mercy. That He stands between God and the people. That no one gets to God except through Him who is the Lamb and a Priest of God.

You know what the problem is with Judaism? Not the Torah, but their unbelief! For Christ is the fullfillment of the Torah. They read the right Books, but a veil has been placed on their heads that they should not understand. For when they thought themselves to be the doers of the Law they did not have faith.

Now this Messiah, is the same Messiah Moses wrote of in Deutoronomy 18 saying,

15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,..."

and then God said,

19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him."


This is the same that David wrote of in Psalm 2 saying:

10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

 

[Fatihah]

There is but one God, the Creator of the universe; and as to other gods/religions, if they contributed anything to the happiness of mankind, each and everyone of them afforded it only according to His appointment, and not by their own power.

And that is the true Abrahamic religion. Whether Jew or Muslim, or Christian, or whatever, God is but ONE! And Christ is the point at which many will stumble and fall, and take offense, for when they think it to be foolishness, it turns out to be the plan and goodness of God, that no man may think righteousness to be attainable by wisdom, or customs, or deeds, but by only belief that He is the Christ of God.

Response: No where in the bible does Jesus say say that the way to righteousness is just by simply believing that he is the Christ of God. Jesus says to keep the laws and the commamdments which were prescribed in the taurat(torah). Anywhere in the bible where it says differently, at no point is Jesus saying so. It is rather Paul or someone else. So when one simply believes that Jesus is the Christ of God but does not keep the laws and the commandments of the torah, they are only following Paul or some biblical historian, not Jesus. And when one only follows the words of Jesus in the bible, then and only then are they following the complete message of God, for the message of Jesus was for mankind to follow the last and final Messenger of God, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

 

[phuti]

for the message of Jesus was for mankind to follow the last and final Messenger of God, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

Was Muhammad the Son of God? Did he rise from the dead? Was he crucified? No. When Abraham took Isaac to sacrifice him, was he not foreshadowing the ultimate sacrifice of God? Why would God have asked Abraham to do such a deed if He wasn't trying to communicate some deeper message to us all? That He would give up His One and Only begotten Son for sacrifice.

We follow Jesus because He is the Son of God. We follow Him, because He was born of a virgin as was foretold, because of the signs He showed, and the message He preached. We follow Him, because He has always been, even before Abraham.

Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." - John 8

and verse 58 says,
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”


He is the foundation of all things. That stone that the builders rejected, which is the cornerstone. For when the Jews rejected Him, and the Muhammads of this world thought to found religions for themselves, they rejected Christ and His Lordship in this whole thing, and what will they do when that very stone which the builders thought to have been of no value, now becomes the stone upon which all things are built?

 

[phuti]

I agree though with all of you that, salvation is through the following of the law. but it is also written that love is the one law on which all the laws hang. And Christ is the fullfillment of that Law, that's why we say He is the Messiah. The Jew who had the Torah was found wanting when weighed against the very law he claims to be practicing, even the Muslim following the Q'ran is found wanting. And since no one can be found righteous according to the Torah, for no man is perfect, Christ became that perfection which we all wish to become. For in Him dwelled the fullness of God. But even then, He did not see it dishonor when they crucified Him, for although He was the Son of God, He humbled Himself before God, which thing even the followers of the Torah would have failed to do.

 

[Poisonshady313]

What did David mean when he said:
"The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

This wasn't written by David. This was written about David by one of his subordinates. And calling him priest was a metaphor... because as a righteous king (melchi zedek), he inspired the people to serve and obey God... which is more of a priestly sort of thing to do.

That this Messiah, would be He through whom the people will appeal to God for mercy.

No. This sort of thinking is idolatry, and is nowhere supported in Jewish scriptures.

That He stands between God and the people.

No. This sort of thinking is idolatry, and is nowhere supported in Jewish scriptures.

That no one gets to God except through Him who is the Lamb and a Priest of God.

This doesn't even make sense at all... though I'm pretty sure that this sort of thinking is also idolatry and is nowhere supported in Jewish scriptures.

For Christ is the fullfillment of the Torah.

No he's not. I'm not even sure you know what it meant by "fulfillment of the Torah". It's a guide to life. Blueprints of the universe. It's not something that you decide to do and finish up one day, like a quest on World of Warcraft. It's not something where someone could declare "I'm finished". It's an eternal law to be observed and safeguarded throughout the generations.

They read the right Books, but a veil has been placed on their heads that they should not understand. For when they thought themselves to be the doers of the Law they did not have faith.

Sounds like you focus on all the negative parts of the bible, and skip over the times when the Jews are doing things right, enjoying peace, blessings, and righteousness. Ezra and Nehemia were around during a return to righteousness. King Hezekiah was righteous, and there was righteousness in his kingdom. Jews have a cycle of behavior... righteousness, rebelliousness, exile, redemption, righteousness, rebelliousness, exile, redemption. Right now we're in the exile phase. The Messiah we're waiting for will usher in the redemprion... and he will be a righteous king like King David.

Now this Messiah, is the same Messiah Moses wrote of in Deutoronomy 18 saying,

15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,..."

This wasn't a messianic prophecy. This was Moses passing the torch to Joshua, so that the people would follow him the way they followed Moses. It was a way to prevent the people from going into chaos as they prepared to enter the land of Israel.

This is the same that David wrote of in Psalm 2 saying:

10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

How about something a little more accurate. Wrap your head around this:

And now, O kings, be wise; be disciplined, O judges of the earth. Serve the Lord with awe that you may rejoice when there is trembling. Yearn for purity, lest He grow wrathful and your way be doomed, for in a brief moment His anger will blaze; praiseworthy are all who trust in Him.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I agree though with all of you that, salvation is through the following of the law. but it is also written that love is the one law on which all the laws hang.

That just means one should observe all the laws with love... that doesn't mean one should ignore the law in favor of some abstract and ambiguous sort of "love" that doesn't involve doing what God told us to do.

And Christ is the fullfillment of that Law, that's why we say He is the Messiah.

That is a thoroughly meaningless statement. It makes absolutely no sense.

And since no one can be found righteous according to the Torah,

Actually, you are wrong.

Praiseworthy is the man who walked not in the counsel of the wicked, and stood not in the path of the sinful, and sat not in the session of scorners. But his desire is in the Torah of the Lord, and in HIs Torah he meditates day and night. He shall be like a tree deeply rooted alongside brooks of water, that yields fruit in its season, and whose leaf never withers; and everything that he does will succeed. Not so the wicked; rather they are like the chaff that the wind drives away. Therefore the wicked shall not be vindicated in judgment, nor the sinful in the assembly of the righteous - for the Lord attends the way of the righteous, while the way of the wicked will perish.

Psalm 1.

for no man is perfect, Christ became that perfection which we all wish to become.

No man is expected to be perfect. And no... the one you call "Christ" was far from perfect.

For in Him dwelled the fullness of God. But even then, He did not see it dishonor when they crucified Him, for although He was the Son of God, He humbled Himself before God, which thing even the followers of the Torah would have failed to do.

More meaningless nonsense.

 

[Dunemeister]

The problem with bible battles here is that, certainly since the time of Jesus, Judaism has changed a great deal (so has Christianity for that matter). So when appealing to the scriptures today, a Jew does not see what a first century Jew might have seen. As a result, for the Christian to make a scriptural case for the Messiah as the route to universal salvation, both parties to the conversation have to get back into a first-century frame of mind. So far, that's not happening here, and there is littel prospect.

 

[phuti]

Yup, spoken like a Jew. Proud in heart and self-righteous according to customs of man. But this is what I understand: that when God said to Abraham, "In your seed all nations of the world will be blessed", He had us gentiles in mind. For you claim to be children of Abraham, but not in faith. I do not expect to convince Jews of who Christ is and who is not, for it is the will of God that it be so. It was the will of God, that when He came, you rejected Him, that we also may attain salvation in He whom you have rejected. But I also know, that "Salvation is of the Jews", but praise be to God, who knew, and predetermined it this way, that because of your evil intentions in heart, although being children, you may also fall short of the grace.

For now, I am confident in heart, that I am the child of God. And not because of bloodline or religion, but because when I heard the gospel of Christ, I believed. And not only believed, but followed the message of Christ. But I also know, that when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, the Lord shall once again return to His own people and reconcile their hearts to the Father.

But I also know, that "God is not a respector of persons." Whether Jew or Gentile , Muslim or Bhuddist, black or white, all shall come before the Throne of Judgement. And those who live by the law will be judged by the same law and be found wanting. We who live by Christ acknowledge that we are unworthy of the grace of God except through Christ. For you observe the Sabbath, we do not, although it is the Law of God. You circumcize the flesh, we circumsize the heart.

Is it not written that:

"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Well, Jesus is that stone upon which you, who are called Jews, stumbled. This is that stone, you who kill prophets of the Most High, when you heard, took offense and crucified the Prince of Peace. The very same Lord, who when you were in the wilderness, rejected and built a golden calf. When we, gentiles should have learned from you how to follow the Lord, you strayed yourselves and rejected Him. Now, we are also partakers of the same riches. If you consider yourselves to be children of God, consider this also, that even we also are God's children. Because we have believed in that stone that you guys stumbled upon, and as the scriptures say, "we will not be put to shame." Praise be to God Most High forever and ever! Amen.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Yup, spoken like a Jew. Proud in heart and self-righteous according to customs of man. But this is what I understand: that when God said to Abraham, "In your seed all nations of the world will be blessed", He had us gentiles in mind. For you claim to be children of Abraham, but not in faith. I do not expect to convince Jews of who Christ is and who is not, for it is the will of God that it be so. It was the will of God, that when He came, you rejected Him, that we also may attain salvation in He whom you have rejected. But I also know, that "Salvation is of the Jews", but praise be to God, who knew, and predetermined it this way, that because of your evil intentions in heart, although being children, you may also fall short of the grace.

For now, I am confident in heart, that I am the child of God. And not because of bloodline or religion, but because when I heard the gospel of Christ, I believed. And not only believed, but followed the message of Christ. But I also know, that when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, the Lord shall once again return to His own people and reconcile their hearts to the Father.

But I also know, that "God is not a respector of persons." Whether Jew or Gentile , Muslim or Bhuddist, black or white, all shall come before the Throne of Judgement. And those who live by the law will be judged by the same law and be found wanting. We who live by Christ acknowledge that we are unworthy of the grace of God except through Christ. For you observe the Sabbath, we do not, although it is the Law of God. You circumcize the flesh, we circumsize the heart.

Is it not written that:

"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Well, Jesus is that stone upon which you, who are called Jews, stumbled. This is that stone, you who kill prophets of the Most High, when you heard, took offense and crucified the Prince of Peace. The very same Lord, who when you were in the wilderness, rejected and built a golden calf. When we, gentiles should have learned from you how to follow the Lord, you strayed yourselves and rejected Him. Now, we are also partakers of the same riches. If you consider yourselves to be children of God, consider this also, that even we also are God's children. Because we have believed in that stone that you guys stumbled upon, and as the scriptures say, "we will not be put to shame." Praise be to God Most High forever and ever! Amen.

Wow. And you call me self righteous.

To quote your jesus...

"Judge not lest ye be judged.

Don't expect more of a response from me. This post from you tells me that continued discussion with you will be unpleasant.

 

[Poisonshady313]

The problem with bible battles here is that, certainly since the time of Jesus, Judaism has changed a great deal (so has Christianity for that matter). So when appealing to the scriptures today, a Jew does not see what a first century Jew might have seen. As a result, for the Christian to make a scriptural case for the Messiah as the route to universal salvation, both parties to the conversation have to get back into a first-century frame of mind. So far, that's not happening here, and there is littel prospect.

In Judaism, the level of observance of Torah may have changed throughout the years... but scripture itself has not. Though we do what we can to maintain more of an original perception of scripture by appealing to the wisdom of the sages, who surely knew more about scripture in its original language than people today could hope to learn through concordances and such.

 

[Fatihah]

Was Muhammad the Son of God? Did he rise from the dead? Was he crucified? No. When Abraham took Isaac to sacrifice him, was he not foreshadowing the ultimate sacrifice of God? Why would God have asked Abraham to do such a deed if He wasn't trying to communicate some deeper message to us all? That He would give up His One and Only begotten Son for sacrifice.

We follow Jesus because He is the Son of God. We follow Him, because He was born of a virgin as was foretold, because of the signs He showed, and the message He preached. We follow Him, because He has always been, even before Abraham.

Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." - John 8

and verse 58 says,
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”


He is the foundation of all things. That stone that the builders rejected, which is the cornerstone. For when the Jews rejected Him, and the Muhammads of this world thought to found religions for themselves, they rejected Christ and His Lordship in this whole thing, and what will they do when that very stone which the builders thought to have been of no value, now becomes the stone upon which all things are built?

Response: You see, you are basing your logic on scripture which within itself does not hold as the word of God. For God does not reveal a book of discrepancy and the bible is full of them.

But without pointing to each and every one of them, let's just analyze the situation logically. You say Jesus is was crucified? But in your own bible, Jesus himself never says that he is to be crucified, nor can you point to any time in which he says so. Jesus himself says to keep the laws and the commandments. Secondly, since when did suicide or homicide become an act of love? It's illogical. God let's his "Begotten Son" die so we can be forgiven? God does no such thing. If I kill your daughter to forgive you, it's murder. If it was your son, it's murder. Your father, it's murder. Yet when God does it, it's love?

No, it's murder. It's unjust. For one to forgive, all that is necessary is for one to open their heart and show compassion. Death is not necessary.

As for the sacrifice of Abraham, it was a test of faith. God wanted to see if Abraham would go through with it, to test the love and devotion of Abraham. Once Abraham showed that he would...that was it. He did not actually proceed with the sacrifice. Why would God order someone to kill someone when the person did no wrong? Is this the God you believe in?

Again, if you follow Jesus and his words, even your bible testifies that Jesus is a prophet. A prophet who's religion is islam. For Jesus himself says,

"I can of mine ownself do nothing As I hear I judge, and my judgement is just. For I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30)

One who submits their will to God is a muslim, for the definition of "muslim", is one who submits their will to God, and according to the above verse, Jesus did just that.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Death is not necessary.

Your understanding and representation of the Old Testament is offensive.
How can you teach death is not necessary, when throughout the OT sacrificre is commanded?

When we go to the New Testament, your representation is just as offensive.
The NT says that there is no greater love than one that lays down their life for another.
You disagree with that?
If you had to die for a loved one would you do it? That is in deed love. It is the greatest because you have faith in the afterlife, and disregard your life on Earth.

To Christians, that is the meaning of Jesus.

Your pollution, calling it murder and so forth only offends those you wish to communicate with.

His death was needed as a sacrifice, to replace the sacrifices that continued since the early days. Jesus sacrificed himself one time and pleased God, where the thousands of other sacrifices before did not.

I am not sure the reason you need to speak with such disrespect about the bible if it is not something you understand entirely. Doesn't do much for your cause.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... we do what we can to maintain more of an original perception of scripture by appealing to the wisdom of the sages, who surely knew more about scripture in its original language than people today could hope to learn through concordances and such.

That is not at all certain.

 

[TheKnight]

There is but one God, the Creator of the universe; and as to other gods/religions, if they contributed anything to the happiness of mankind, each and everyone of them afforded it only according to His appointment, and not by their own power.

And that is the true Abrahamic religion. Whether Jew or Muslim, or Christian, or whatever, God is but ONE! And Christ is the point at which many will stumble and fall, and take offense, for when they think it to be foolishness, it turns out to be the plan and goodness of God, that no man may think righteousness to be attainable by wisdom, or customs, or deeds, but by only belief that He is the Christ of God.

God disagrees.

How does one attain righteousness according to God?

One follows His commandments. Pure and simple.

Jesus wasn't special nor did he do anything deserving of being called a good teacher, a prophet, the Messiah, or any other adorning term.

 

[Fatihah]

Your understanding and representation of the Old Testament is offensive.
How can you teach death is not necessary, when throughout the OT sacrificre is commanded?

When we go to the New Testament, your representation is just as offensive.
The NT says that there is no greater love than one that lays down their life for another.
You disagree with that?
If you had to die for a loved one would you do it? That is in deed love. It is the greatest because you have faith in the afterlife, and disregard your life on Earth.

To Christians, that is the meaning of Jesus.

Your pollution, calling it murder and so forth only offends those you wish to communicate with.

His death was needed as a sacrifice, to replace the sacrifices that continued since the early days. Jesus sacrificed himself one time and pleased God, where the thousands of other sacrifices before did not.

I am not sure the reason you need to speak with such disrespect about the bible if it is not something you understand entirely. Doesn't do much for your cause.

Response: It is you who insist on believing that God murdered his only son and yet I'm being disrespectful and offensive. To the contrary, I'm showing love and respect for God for I would never attribute such an atrocity to his name like you would. It is you who is slandering God. The fact that you find no shame in your act is quite telling.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yup, spoken like a Jew.[/I]

It's amazing that people let this kind of thing stand ...