So you say you are against torture, Really?

[shortfade2]

The point is that I find it peculiar when someone confesses to belong to a certain faith, and then turn around and blatantly contradict the very rules and guidelines of that faith. Also, when I "attack" something it is because it's either irrational, unsubstantiated or both, or I find it ethically abhorrent (like something that might encroach upon rights, freedom, equality. and justice, for example) The fact that it tends to be a right wing belief is mere coincidence.

Yes it may be wrong to do some of the things that right wingists believe in, but that doesnt make it stupid. Like pulling out of Iraq now that we are in would be stupid. We never should have gone in...No we should have. Because if we leave the terrorists will be ticked and will come terrorize, cause terror on US soil

 

[Mr Spinkles]

If you're asking whether I can imagine a circumstance in which I would be so overcome with fear and rage that I would do something that was violent, irrational, and almost certainly pointless, the answer is yes.

If you're arguing that violent, irrational, and almost certainly pointless acts should therefore be government policy, and that we as a nation should be governed by fear and rage, I don't agree.

Perfect. :clap

 

[linwood]

Perfect. :clap

Actually that was perfect, thanks for quoting it again.

I think I fruballed it yesterday if not I`ll do it now.

Edit:
The frubal fairy never lets me frubal Smoke.

:help:

 

[tumbleweed41]

And I say, "God supplies life, and as the supplier of life He has the right to either continue or discontinue the supplication of life at any given point."

So,
I have fed and cared for my dog for four years. I am the "supplier" of her life giving nutrients and water. She looks to me for a place to live, and be cared for. She is totaly reliant on me for her well-being.

Do I have the moral right to, at any time remove her from life? Would I be looked on as a moral person if I decided it was my right to withhold food and water. Locked her in the backyard. And waited for her to die?

She is my responsibility. By providing these things to her I have taken on a responsibility for her well being.

If, as you say, God is responsible for our continued life, it would be Gods responsibility to provide for our continued well being, at all times. To not do so would be like forgetting , or refusing to feed the dog for a week.

This is why I believe God does not provide, or continue life like electricity. Instead the possibility of life is contained in the laws of nature. It is is natures hands, not Gods, for our continued existence.

You can see why many view the Abrahamic God as unjust. First he is given responsibility and control of all things. Then is shown to be egotistical, wrathful, and emotional in scriptures and teachings. The anthropomorphic Abrahamic God is to human to be in control of the "switch".

 

[shortfade2]

I have heard it from some of the people that I talk about politics that the Israeli Secret Service tracked down all of the people who kidnapped and killed the Olympians that one year, waterboarded them, and found all of the other conspirators.

I think that people caught in the act of terrorism, who were arrested on the spot for terrorism should be able to be tortured in order to find the fellow conspirators... If the info is unreliable they do it again, with a psychiatrist or two judging whether or not they actually do have conspirators

 

[Smoke]

Yes it may be wrong to do some of the things that right wingists believe in, but that doesnt make it stupid.

If it is stupid to do things that are contrary to American interests, the neocons have combined stupidity and a complete lack of ethics in a way that is truly remarkable.

Like pulling out of Iraq now that we are in would be stupid. We never should have gone in...No we should have. Because if we leave the terrorists will be ticked and will come terrorize, cause terror on US soil

Ummm.... So we're staying to keep the terrorists happy?

 

[Smoke]

I have heard it from some of the people that I talk about politics that the Israeli Secret Service tracked down all of the people who kidnapped and killed the Olympians that one year, waterboarded them, and found all of the other conspirators.

No, they didn't. Mossad did kill a lot of people, including innocent bystanders as well as Palestinian activists who had nothing to do with the Munich massacre, but they never did get all the conspirators.

I think that people caught in the act of terrorism, who were arrested on the spot for terrorism should be able to be tortured in order to find the fellow conspirators... If the info is unreliable they do it again, with a psychiatrist or two judging whether or not they actually do have conspirators

You think the proper way to find information is to use a method that has been proven to be ineffective, and do it over and over? Why not use a Magic 8-Ball? If the info is unreliable, they do it again.

 

[shortfade2]

Unreliable? Hardly
FOXNews.com - Foiled Terror Plots Against America Since 9/11 - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

thats 20 foiled plots.

note the citizenS, plural. Many are plural. meaning, that they probably only caught one or two at a time.

Besides, if somebody is caught in the act of doing something illegal, and hardnosed, generally by people who can withstand a lot of pain they tend to not give in easy. Try punching a Navy SEAL until they stop laughing at you for being weak...not gonna work. These terrorists are ready to die to kill us. They are mislead by 'Islam' (Not true islam) Into wanting to kill infidels. people hate us whether or not we are nice to them.

 

[Smoke]

Unreliable? Hardly
FOXNews.com - Foiled Terror Plots Against America Since 9/11 - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

thats 20 foiled plots.

Explain how torture was used to obtain reliable information in each of these cases.

 

[shortfade2]

Explain how torture was used to obtain reliable information in each of these cases.

I dont. obviously the info wouldn't be public... By the way did they subpoena the results of torture yet?

 

[Smoke]

I dont. obviously the info wouldn't be public...

So you're advancing uninformed speculation as evidence? Not very convincing.

By the way did they subpoena the results of torture yet?

I don't know.

 

[shortfade2]

hmm....too bad. the results would probably sway me either way.

 

[tumbleweed41]

hmm....too bad. the results would probably sway me either way.

I have already posted this, but in the effort to keep you informed on the effectiveness of torture.

http://www.fas.org/irp/dni/educing.pdf

 

[Reverend Rick]

Yes, the Jack Bauer effect. One would hope that if such a situation actually occurred - and really, it's wildly implausible - that Jack would break the rules, preferably getting special permission first.

We recently got ourselves in a situation where we seriously considered shooting down a hijacked commercial airliner over American soil (Flight 93 on 9/11). An exceptional situation with the emphasis on exceptional.

So, Rick, if you approve of Bush's torture program, you think we should also make it a policy to shoot down suspected hijacked commercial airliners as well? Give our military cart blanche with regards to such situations?

Jackytar

I don't want anyone having cart blanche on this issue on either side of the arguement.

 

[Reverend Rick]

My guess is that they weren't terrorists when we locked them up and tortured them, but they are now. And they've been released to tell their stories and recruit more terrorists. I call it the Bush administration "Create-a-terrorist" program.

Good point, now can we apply this argument to incarceration? Is prison a create-a-criminal program?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Torture severs no useful, beneficial purpose.

You are speaking in absolutes, so that would make you absolutely wrong.

If the information that was extracted could be verified one way or the other, I believe the second interrogation could be fruitful.

Let's apply the scenario in the OP. If you say they are buried out back of the barn, and I go look and they are not there, I will come back and give it another try. Yes, some folks can withstand torture and not give away any vital information, but when faced with verification of the information given, most would give it up.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Good point, now can we apply this argument to incarceration? Is prison a create-a-criminal program?

Actually, in many cases it is.

 

[Duck]

Good point, now can we apply this argument to incarceration? Is prison a create-a-criminal program?

Given that prisons in the US are increasingly run by private corporations as for profit businesses, and that those for profit corporations exert undue influence on elected officials via lobbying, yes prison is a create-a-criminal program.

Societal stigma associated with prison time, combined with the lack of comprehensive rehabilitation programs and the large number of offenses carrying mandatory sentencing, including 3 strikes laws, combine to create a large prison population and a high recidivism rate.

I agree that laws, generally, are good, and that regulation and even criminalization of some behaviors is necessary, but I think that the social stigma, particularly in the employment arena, of having been sentenced to prison time is essentially, double-jeopardy. I also think that the difficulty of ex-prisoners in finding employment forces them into recidivism and perpetuates the problem.

 

[Autodidact]

I have heard it from some of the people that I talk about politics that the Israeli Secret Service tracked down all of the people who kidnapped and killed the Olympians that one year, waterboarded them, and found all of the other conspirators.

I think that people caught in the act of terrorism, who were arrested on the spot for terrorism should be able to be tortured in order to find the fellow conspirators... If the info is unreliable they do it again, with a psychiatrist or two judging whether or not they actually do have conspirators

So if by chance I come to suspect that you were the person who planted a bomb, I should be able to arrest you and torture you until you give me the name of your co-conspirators?

btw, I heard from some people that I talk about politics with that shortfade is an Al Qaeda terrorist, and I'm sure that information is at least as accurate as the people you talk politics with.

 

[Autodidact]

Unreliable? Hardly
FOXNews.com - Foiled Terror Plots Against America Since 9/11 - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

thats 20 foiled plots.

note the citizenS, plural. Many are plural. meaning, that they probably only caught one or two at a time.

Besides, if somebody is caught in the act of doing something illegal, and hardnosed, generally by people who can withstand a lot of pain they tend to not give in easy. Try punching a Navy SEAL until they stop laughing at you for being weak...not gonna work. These terrorists are ready to die to kill us. They are mislead by 'Islam' (Not true islam) Into wanting to kill infidels. people hate us whether or not we are nice to them.

Interesting story. How many of them were foiled by use of torture? Answer: none. You're arguing against yourself.