slave2six
Substitious
Yep. It was you. If I recall correctly you have a brother or sister here on the forum as well, yeah?
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Apologies to My Jewish Friends Here
- Thread starter slave2six
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Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Brother. That's me.
slave2six
Substitious
And this is relevant to the serpent in the garden how?
slave2six
Substitious
Are you related to FFH by any chance? Just curious.
slave2six
Substitious
I knew it. Well, thanks to you both especially. My horizons have been broadened.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
For me a key difference is that Christians believe that all people are born evil and can only be redeemed through faith in Jesus Christ. Jews believe that people are born nuetral, with the capacity to do good or evil, and the ability to choose.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
:yes:
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
relevant due to the idea of original sin and being born "dirty"
In that the sub humans...people are of Lillith...
Tied in with the idea that one is not born with a soul one gains one.
Essentially that some people are "less than human" which goes back to eden.
Again this is only one small part of Judaism, and personally I don't think it should be take all that literally... but just throwin it in there to counter the idea that there is no "negativity" in Judaism due to the Eden story....
But again Judaism is complex, it really depends on what period and what school of thought you are looking at.
Yes you did, and you're right. :yes:
Again, true, although apparently the Qumran Jews believed that their interpretation of Law, and their approach to Judaism overall was a return to the "pure" worship of Yahweh, that is; pre-Hellenistic influence (from their perspective it's unlikely they were even aware of the influences the Exile had had on the cosmology).
I'm wondering if there are any indications of belief in an afterlife in even the post-Exile books of the Tanach. Ecclesiastes is believed to have been written in the second temple period and it's stand on the afterlife is pretty clear, ie., that there isn't one.
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How do we know this?
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
My answer only has meaning if you believe that Jews have an Oral Torah that we've followed since Moses delivered it from God. Otherwise, my answer would be entirely meaningless and pointless, and many would dismiss it out of hand as being less than apocryphal.
Are you still interested in my answer?
Absolutely.
I'm completely unfamiliar with anything having to do with the Oral Torah or what the claims are in regards to it, but the idea sounds interesting.
In my opinion, the best explication of the Jewish views of the afterlife is found in The Death of Death: Resurrection and Immortality in Jewish Thought by Neil Gillman.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Thank you kindly.
Understanding that the Oral Law refers to all kinds of laws, traditions, background stories, actual history, and apocryphal parables of questionable truth but seriously useful lessons (and it takes a serious scholar to know the difference, sometimes), one of the things to know is that the teachings have been around since Moses received them on Sinai.
Now, there is a great deal in the Talmud about how a person may achieve the World to Come, and things like this. But one of the more meaningful passages is in the Mishna (which was written down and redacted in about 200 CE by Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi). This tractate of Mishna is called Pirkei Avot, or usually translated as "Ethics of the Fathers."
In the first chapter, Mishna 3, it says:
3. Antignos of Socho received the tradition from Shimon the Righteous. He would say: Do not be as slaves, who serve their master for the sake of reward. Rather, be as slaves who serve their master not for the sake of reward. And the fear of Heaven should be upon you.
The way Jews understand this is to say that the reward refers to the World to Come. But that we should not focus on the reward. Instead, we should focus on serving the Master (God) out of love for the Master, not because of the reward we'll be given.
We will receive a reward, but that isn't the point. Loving God and man is the point.
What need is there to remind people to not focus on the reward of the World to Come, unless people already believed in it?
That is how we know.
That is not knowledge. It is a statement of faith, both unprovable and unlikely.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
See, that was the type of thing I was trying to avoid.
I don't know what is going on. Every time I say something related to my faith lately, someone jumps down my back. You say things I've taken a long time and effort to learn isn't really knowledge, but only faith.
Someone else is convinced that because Torah law says that Jews who join a different religion are not to be considered Jews until they come back to Judaism is bigoted.
Someone ELSE has decided that saying that non-Jews are not the Chosen People means that I'm treating them lower than dirt.
I never said YOU had to believe what I do, Jay. That was the whole point of my whole prefacing post, saying that if you don't believe what I do, or maybe I should have said, if you aren't willing to allow me to believe as I do, the explanation wouldn't mean anything.
So... Maybe you're right. Maybe it isn't knowledge, and it is only faith. But you know what? I don't care. It is Torah, it is Torah knowledge, and it means a great deal to me.
And if you don't accept it... That is your choice. Take it with my blessing.
slave2six
Substitious
Well, it does take faith to believe that God spoke to Moses on Sinai since there is no objective evidence to support it.
I think what people fail to consider is that within the confines of any religion, there are worlds of knowledge and intricate nuances - enough to keep a truly intelligent person (such as yourself) busy for many lifetimes. But all of that hinges on accepting a premise without proof. That is, after all, what faith is.
Don't take it personally that some people simply cannot accept any kind of faith. I am one such person but I also acknowledge that some faiths are actually far more reasonable than others in most respects. I am glad that you are posting here because in this way I am able to learn more about a belief system that is new and interesting to me if for no other reason that it's refreshing to hear a religious dialogue that isn't entirely fanciful or in any way coercive.
I think what people fail to consider is that within the confines of any religion, there are worlds of knowledge and intricate nuances - enough to keep a truly intelligent person (such as yourself) busy for many lifetimes. But all of that hinges on accepting a premise without proof. That is, after all, what faith is.
Don't take it personally that some people simply cannot accept any kind of faith. I am one such person but I also acknowledge that some faiths are actually far more reasonable than others in most respects. I am glad that you are posting here because in this way I am able to learn more about a belief system that is new and interesting to me if for no other reason that it's refreshing to hear a religious dialogue that isn't entirely fanciful or in any way coercive.
gnostic
The Lost One
I should have been more precise with my previous posts in this thread.
When I said that Judaism don't believe in the afterlife, I mean that people don't go to heaven or hell in the afterlife.
There are some references to the afterlife, where the souls go to sheol.
This sheol should not be confused with the Christian concept of hell. It was not a place of punishment for the sinners. Sheol was just a netherworld, where everyone went, regardless of good or bad, in the afterlife. No one goes to heaven or hell.
It is this "going to heaven" in the afterlife to dwell with god that is so alien to Judaism.
The possible exceptions to people going to heaven were Enoch and Elijah. They are the only references (in the Tanakh) to the ascensions to heaven, without dying.
Did they (Enoch and Elijah) become angels?
According to some texts, like the Haggada or other Jewish literary texts, they probably did. According to the Haggada, Enoch became the prince of angels, called Metatron.
When I said that Judaism don't believe in the afterlife, I mean that people don't go to heaven or hell in the afterlife.
There are some references to the afterlife, where the souls go to sheol.
This sheol should not be confused with the Christian concept of hell. It was not a place of punishment for the sinners. Sheol was just a netherworld, where everyone went, regardless of good or bad, in the afterlife. No one goes to heaven or hell.
It is this "going to heaven" in the afterlife to dwell with god that is so alien to Judaism.
The possible exceptions to people going to heaven were Enoch and Elijah. They are the only references (in the Tanakh) to the ascensions to heaven, without dying.
Did they (Enoch and Elijah) become angels?
According to some texts, like the Haggada or other Jewish literary texts, they probably did. According to the Haggada, Enoch became the prince of angels, called Metatron.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Indeed Judaism is full of these ideas....
Oral Torah is generally found under what is called Kabbalah...
:sarcasticclaims such as the sefer (sefer=book)raziel hamalkh were given to Adam in the garden are just plain silly
or that Abraham wrote the Sefer Yetzirah