OK I get it now.
What you are saying is you get to choose when a verse is figurative or literal.
Surely you don't think the entire Old Testament is literal.
I'm saying if I quote a verse as proof, I would like it if you actually respond to the verse I quoted, rather than quoting verses which don't have anything to do with the one I quoted.
Realize, that in the verses I quoted, I explained why I believe they mean a world peace. You, on the other hand, have not pointed out any evidence within the verse itself which would lead one to believe that it is talking about any peace other than Earth.
And for the record, there are four levels of interpretation in Torah study. PaRDeS is the acronym for it and it stands for:
Peshat-The simple meaning
Remez-The deeper allusions that are hinted at in the text
Derush-The use of an analogy to confer a deeper concept
-and-
Sod-The secret level of meaning which is learned from Kabbalah.
Seeing as how you and I have different belief systems, it would be best for us to avoid the Remez, Derush, and Sod levels of interpretation and stay within the world of the Peshat.
The moment we go beyond what the words say is the moment that our discussion cannot continue because we don't agree beyond what the words say in their simple meaning.
Since you don't think the entire Old Testament is literal, why is it not worth to MAKE SURE what you think is literal is not actually methophorical?
In case I didn't make it clear above, there are four levels of interpretation in Torah study and each level applies to every verse. There may be a deeper metaphorical meaning, but it doesn't mean that we can ignore the simple meaning.
Not to mention, I have no reason to believe that it is metaphorical. You haven't given me any reason to believe that and the verse itself doesn't give me any reason to believe that.
Let's start over with your first verse this time
My understanding of this is when Jesus comes back and judges the world, there will be no more evil. Thus it will be as though the swords will turn to plowshares and spears turn into pruninghooks. Both descriptions are just figures of peace, which is describing what it will be like when Jesus comes back. Not before He comes back, but after he judges the world. Which is why the verse starts of with the statement "He will judge"
Now please consider the next verse, so you can see I am not trying to be stubborn, but consistant in how I approach scripture.
I am posting this additional verse in Isaiah so you can understand the problem I am having with how you read the scriptures.
When we read verse 6 here, are all those names actually the name of the Messiah? Or rather are they descriptions and clarification of who the Messiah will be to us? Clearly we would agree this is talking about the Messiah, but notice it doesn't use the name Messiah.
So for your verses, yes at face value they indicate what you are teaching. However, after reading the rest of the bible it would be apporpriate to take your verse as a description and figure of something else. Isaiah's book is full is figurative language.
So without getting upset, and pointing fingers, the goal here is to back up a wee bit, so we can at least understand how each of us is reaching our perspective. I know it will take time, and I am willing if you are.
Hope you have a great day. I will be gone for the rest of this one.
I'm sorry but that doesn't follow:
1. You can't believe in Jesus based on something you think he might do in the future when the standard for believing in him is based on the action occurring.
In essence, if you believe in Jesus because he one day will fulfill the Messianic prophecies then you might as well believe in me as the Messiah because I too could fulfill these prophecies in the future, anyone could.
2. You must realize that there is a stunning lack of "the messiah will come once and do
absolutely nothing (because lets be clear that Jesus didn't do ANYTHING that any other person in history didn't do. He came, he did some miracles, he taught some stuff, he died. He didn't change the world, he didn't change anything in our physical realm which would designate him as a special figure. The only "change" which you can attribute to him are those which are "in the afterlife" or "inside feelings.") and then come again to complete the actual Messianic mission within the scriptures of the Tanakh.
In fact, I'd be willing to believe in Jesus if he came back and fulfilled the Messianic prophesies (although, If I started believing that people who died were going to be the Messiah someday then I'd probably go for the Rebbe because he did a lot more than Jesus did and was certainly more loving). However, I'm NOT going to believe in Jesus before he actually meets the requirements for being the Messiah.
3. Isaiah 9:6 has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Do I believe that verse is Messianic? No. I believe it is a verse discussing the qualities of Hezekiah the King. First off, Christians have a tendency to mis-translate the verse into future tense. Ve'Yikra Shemo means "and he has been called". It does not mean "And he will be called".
In Hebrew, normally Yikra would mean "he will be called", however, in biblical Hebrew there is the Vav construct form. When you add the Vav to Yikra it changes to "And he has been called." If the author had wanted to say "And he will be killed" he would have written "Ve'Kara Shemo" (And his name will be called). So by this we know that the verse isn't a prophecy because it speaks of something that has already happened.
Then there's the fact that even if it is talking about the Messiah (which it isn't) you'd still have to prove that Jesus fulfilled that. How can we know that Jesus was a wonderful counselor or a prince of peace or a mighty god?
Even then you'd have to realize that even if these words were talking about the Messiah, they would only be names.
And before you argue, "why would someone's name be 'might god'? Isn't only God worthy of that name?", consider the fact that many Hebrew names are similar such descriptions. My name (Daniel) is "My God is Judge". Many names have similar meanings (IE Isaiah=God is salvation Jeremiah=God has lifted up).
In that light consider that Hezekiah (Khazak Yahu) means "God is mighty" or "mighty God".
4. Whether or not this verse is discussing the Messiah does not have any weight on the verse I posted. Yes, Isaiah uses figurative language, and even in Isaiah 2:4 he uses figurative language to describe what will be happening, but he does not (for he would have if he had meant to) in any way allude to it being the afterlife.
