New Member - Logical or Illogical question

[Arch-Angel]

Hi, im new here and have a question that i think will challenge your thinking skills if you do not believe in God the Father.

The question of how we got here has always plagued man and science always says they're closing in on a viable answer. I would like to ask the question of the eternal, what in all creation is eternal? I'm talking about anything you can logically come up with that has never had a beginning but has always simply been. And you must go to the core of the matter(IE molecules, atoms) then show how the starting point of ANY of it's after matter begun. you don't need to be a science nut to answer this one either.

 

[3.14]

time started it all, energy kept it together

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hi, im new here and have a question that i think will challenge your thinking skills if you do not believe in God the Father.

The question of how we got here has always plagued man and science always says they're closing in on a viable answer. I would like to ask the question of the eternal, what in all creation is eternal? I'm talking about anything you can logically come up with that has never had a beginning but has always simply been. And you must go to the core of the matter(IE molecules, atoms) then show how the starting point of ANY of it's after matter begun. you don't need to be a science nut to answer this one either.

Pick up the current issue of Scientific American. Next?

 

[Dunemeister]

In actual fact, the biblical text doesn't support creation ex nihilo (from nothing). Rather, the text says: In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters." That is, at the time when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void. In other words, God created the world out of pre-existent stuff. The text doesn't mention where that stuff was itself created or eternal. What the text does say is that God imposed form and plenitude on the formless void.

The upshot of this is that it's entirely possible for science to discover that matter is itself uncreated. That's not to say matter is eternal. It would seem that it's not given that it's always changing and degenerating into useless heat.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In actual fact, the biblical text doesn't support creation ex nihilo (from nothing). Rather, the text says: In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, ...

See Gen 1:1,2 Creation ex nihilo ... NOT.

 

[Dunemeister]

See Gen 1:1,2 Creation ex nihilo ... NOT.

Thanks, Jay! Good discussion. I'm glad I don't have to rehash. I have to say, it's awfully difficult undoing the confusions introduced by St. Augustine.

 

[Willamena]

Hi, im new here and have a question that i think will challenge your thinking skills if you do not believe in God the Father.

The question of how we got here has always plagued man and science always says they're closing in on a viable answer. I would like to ask the question of the eternal, what in all creation is eternal? I'm talking about anything you can logically come up with that has never had a beginning but has always simply been. And you must go to the core of the matter(IE molecules, atoms) then show how the starting point of ANY of it's after matter begun. you don't need to be a science nut to answer this one either.

I don't know.

 

[Arch-Angel]

Pick up the current issue of Scientific American Next?

thank you for responding, i read this theory and it says nothing more than the same explanation of the big bang with an implosion at the beginning before the big bang that then bounced into the big bang.....they still explained absolutely nothing. even if force or vacuum moved molecules that built pressure to do anything, what caused the force, wind, pressure or whatever movement to happen, in short what set it on it's course? the law of cause and effect has to come into play at some point to move anything in any direction.

Dunemeister I see what you are saying, but everytime i read Genisis 1:1 it still says that God CREATED the Heavens and the earth. That still denotes that earth had a beginning no matter what other view you take scripturally.

 

[Dream Angel]

Hi, im new here and have a question that i think will challenge your thinking skills if you do not believe in God the Father.

The question of how we got here has always plagued man and science always says they're closing in on a viable answer. I would like to ask the question of the eternal, what in all creation is eternal? I'm talking about anything you can logically come up with that has never had a beginning but has always simply been. And you must go to the core of the matter(IE molecules, atoms) then show how the starting point of ANY of it's after matter begun. you don't need to be a science nut to answer this one either.

Well considering matter can neither be created nor destroyed nothing in creation is eternal! Hence I believe in God! (After much confusion.........). Welcome by the way, I hope you have a fantastic time here!

 

[Magic Man]

Hi, im new here and have a question that i think will challenge your thinking skills if you do not believe in God the Father.

The question of how we got here has always plagued man and science always says they're closing in on a viable answer. I would like to ask the question of the eternal, what in all creation is eternal? I'm talking about anything you can logically come up with that has never had a beginning but has always simply been. And you must go to the core of the matter(IE molecules, atoms) then show how the starting point of ANY of it's after matter begun. you don't need to be a science nut to answer this one either.

I'll answer that, when you tell me how God came to be.

 

[Arch-Angel]

I'll answer that, when you tell me how God came to be.

One of the characteristics of God is that He must have never been created and must always have been otherwise He would not be all powerful, Alpha & Omega, Beginning & the End.

you may now answer my question, whether you agree with my statement or not, i have answered your question.

 

[Magic Man]

One of the characteristics of God is that He must have never been created and must always have been otherwise He would not be all powerful, Alpha & Omega, Beginning & the End.

you may now answer my question, whether you agree with my statement or not, i have answered your question.

In that case, I'll just say that one of the characteristics of the universe is that it must have never been created and must always have been.

 

[Arch-Angel]

you must now prove it though, just saying it will not make it so since all the matter in the universe is created by a molecules and atoms, so the universe is not eternal but is instead provable creation. I do not agree with your statement because it is easily proven to be wrong, not just an opinion. you could argue that i did the same thing, the first time i answered you, but i didn't do the same thing because you would then have to be able to subject God to testings of a created order within God. the only viable source you have in which to test God would be the Bible. God always speaks in an eternal sense such as saying "I Am", He is one without beginning and always speaks as though He has always been. so please, answer again.

 

[Magic Man]

you must now prove it though, just saying it will not make it so since all the matter in the universe is created by a molecules and atoms, so the universe is not eternal but is instead provable creation. I do not agree with your statement because it is easily proven to be wrong, not just an opinion. you could argue that i did the same thing, the first time i answered you, but i didn't do the same thing because you would then have to be able to subject God to testings of a created order within God. the only viable source you have in which to test God would be the Bible. God always speaks in an eternal sense such as saying "I Am", He is one without beginning and always speaks as though He has always been. so please, answer again.

So, basically, you can make your claim because it is impossible for anyone to prove you wrong, but I can't make my claim because it is possible for science to prove me wrong?

Why do I have to prove that theory about the universe? Why would you hold me to standards to which you even admit that you don't hold yourself? Do you think the double standard is acceptable?

Aside from that, can you prove my assertion wrong? Can you prove that the universe is not eternal?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

... you could argue that i did the same thing, the first time i answered you, but i didn't do the same thing because you would then have to be able to subject God to testings of a created order within God. the only viable source you have in which to test God would be the Bible.

Now, I've seen some gibberish in my day, but this is as good as it gets.

You are claiming that God is testable (although I have no idea how), and the only viable source (of what, I have no idea) is the Bible.

That is one juicy lump of sputum, my friend.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

the only viable source you have in which to test God would be the Bible.

And what sources would you consider viable to test the Bible?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are claiming that God is testable (although I have no idea how), and the only viable source (of what, I have no idea) is the Bible.

It's a viable source of prohibitions against testing God, for one:

- Matthew 4:7
- Luke 4:12
- Deutoronomy 6:16
- Isaiah 7:12
- etc., etc.

 

[Arch-Angel]

thank you all for answering.
9-10ths_Penguin
within the context what i said i am neither tempting nor testing Gods graces or character. i am simply saying to test to see if what the Bible says is true in respect to what see and know, the bible even testifies to that.

The Voice of Reason
the only testable source of God that can be tested is His word, is what He saying true.

mball1297
im not holding you to a different standard, you changed the course of the topic by asking me to answer you, and i did, you are using a tangible example while i am not, the two are not the same so the argument goes back to my original question. what in all existence is eternal, because you said the universe, that is easily proven wrong because you know what planets are made up of and how it changes, it is thus not eternal.

 

[Magic Man]

mball1297
im not holding you to a different standard, you changed the course of the topic by asking me to answer you, and i did, you are using a tangible example while i am not, the two are not the same so the argument goes back to my original question. what in all existence is eternal, because you said the universe, that is easily proven wrong because you know what planets are made up of and how it changes, it is thus not eternal.

OK, you are implying that God must exist because something had to create the universe. I am showing you that, by that logic, something must have created God, then. If you can consider God to be eternal, then you can consider the universe to be.

How does a planet not being eternal prove that the entire universe is not eternal? The Big Bang theory only suggests that the universe as we know it started with a bang. Before the Big Bang, though, the universe still existed, just in a different, much more condensed form. So, we have no reason to believe that the universe isn't, in fact, eternal.

So, there is just as much reason to believe in an eternal universe as there is to believe in an eternal God. And with an eternal universe, there is no need for a creator-God.

 

[Arch-Angel]

OK, you are implying that God must exist because something had to create the universe. I am showing you that, by that logic, something must have created God, then. If you can consider God to be eternal, then you can consider the universe to be.

How does a planet not being eternal prove that the entire universe is not eternal? The Big Bang theory only suggests that the universe as we know it started with a bang. Before the Big Bang, though, the universe still existed, just in a different, much more condensed form. So, we have no reason to believe that the universe isn't, in fact, eternal.

So, there is just as much reason to believe in an eternal universe as there is to believe in an eternal God. And with an eternal universe, there is no need for a creator-God.

an awesome reply, that is kind of in depth answer i was more looking for. so if then something created God then how far back does that go? by that logic something must have created that as well and so on and so on, it would never end would it.

The big bang -
what started the universe in a condensed form? how long was it that way and what began the motion of anything to result in a bang? i dont say God moved any of these things because i dont believe the big bang theory. but even if you could prove that from an explosion anything came out of it you would still have to provide some substance of which would have caused the bang, so it would have to be that that item would be eternal right? could it ever be proven? if you assume the molecules to be eternall and God to be eternall because the same principals apply, what would make you choose one over the other? on the one hand you have Gods word saying He spoke everything into existance, on the other you have a molecule without purpose or qualifying action to do anything that supposedly did something to make you. what would be the logic in believing one over the other, or is it upon pure assumption? is there an absolute answer that defies our own subjective rational?