Jeremy Hall's plight in the US military

[robtex]

Jeremy Hall is sueing the military for discrimination against non-theists.

a quote from this article

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/u...l=1&adxnnlx=1216566469-HiFvSYKOyHutLtoLOzZsIw

FORT RILEY, Kan. — When Specialist Jeremy Hall held a meeting last July for atheists and freethinkers at Camp Speicher in Iraq, he was excited, he said, to see an officer attending.

But minutes into the talk, the officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, began to berate
Specialist Hall and another soldier about atheism, Specialist Hall wrote in a sworn statement. “People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!” Major Welborn said, according to the statement.
Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment and bring charges against them, according to the statement

from CNN :

His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety.

In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization.

Atheist soldier sues Army for 'unconstitutional' discrimination - CNN.com

The questions I have are :

1) Should one be a believer to serve one country?

2) Is the prosetyization and deliberate promotion of religious beliefs a conflict of interest in the idea of separation of church and state? Where should the line be drawn?

3) Does Jeremy have a legitimate complaint?

4) What should be the relationship between faith and the military?

5) what is your reaction to these article?

the video in the CNN article reposted: Will help put this thread into perspective
Atheist soldier sues Army for 'unconstitutional' discrimination - CNN.com

another interview video:
YouTube - Jeremy Hall: Atheist In Fox Hole Fighting Back

 

[darkendless]

The questions I have are :

1) Should one be a believer to serve one country?

2) Is the prosetyization and deliberate promotion of religious beliefs a conflict of interest in the idea of separation of church and state? Where should the line be drawn?

3) Does Jeremy have a legitimate complaint?

4) What should be the relationship between faith and the military?

5) what is your reaction to these article?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi8NueUz1aE

1) You shouldn't have to believe in God, thats just ignorance on a grand scale.

2) Church and state should be kept far away from eachother, mixing causes chaos, religion was never meant to be political IMO.

3) Yes, its not suprising this happened

4) Keep faith away, only designated to special areas and times, otherwise keep it to youself.

5) Im not suprised, i dont think its the first or last, there are some hard-liners out there who need to be sent to Afganistan to wake up to themselves. Lets see if their God saves them when the bullets start flying.

 

[Dunemeister]

The questions I have are :

1) Should one be a believer to serve one country?

My reading of the NT leads me to believe that Christians ought not to be involved in the military at any level.

2) Is the prosetyization and deliberate promotion of religious beliefs a conflict of interest in the idea of separation of church and state? Where should the line be drawn?

It's no problem for individuals to proselytize, but the military structure shouldn't favor (or hinder) any particular group simply on the basis of its doctrine.

3) Does Jeremy have a legitimate complaint?

Absolutely.

4) What should be the relationship between faith and the military?

The military establishment itself ought not to favor or hinder any faith. However, as I've mentioned earlier, Christians ought not to be involved in the military.

5) what is your reaction to these article?

I hope the guy wins his suit.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

I think the Armed Forces should do everything they can to support the men and women that serve.

As far as religion, that should mean the ability to worship as one sees fit - or not - if that is the path chosen.

In this particular case, whoever Major Welborn's immediate commanding officer is should discipline him, as he would do to Specialist Hall.

 

[oldcajun]

Jeremy Hall is sueing the military for discrimination against non-theists.

a quote from this article

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/u...l=1&adxnnlx=1216566469-HiFvSYKOyHutLtoLOzZsIw

FORT RILEY, Kan. — When Specialist Jeremy Hall held a meeting last July for atheists and freethinkers at Camp Speicher in Iraq, he was excited, he said, to see an officer attending.

But minutes into the talk, the officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, began to berate
Specialist Hall and another soldier about atheism, Specialist Hall wrote in a sworn statement. “People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!” Major Welborn said, according to the statement.
Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment and bring charges against them, according to the statement

from CNN :

His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety.

In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization.

Atheist soldier sues Army for 'unconstitutional' discrimination - CNN.com

The questions I have are :

1) Should one be a believer to serve one country?

2) Is the prosetyization and deliberate promotion of religious beliefs a conflict of interest in the idea of separation of church and state? Where should the line be drawn?

3) Does Jeremy have a legitimate complaint?

4) What should be the relationship between faith and the military?

5) what is your reaction to these article?

the video in the CNN article reposted: Will help put this thread into perspective
Atheist soldier sues Army for 'unconstitutional' discrimination - CNN.com

another interview video:
YouTube - Jeremy Hall: Atheist In Fox Hole Fighting Back

Can't really make a judgement since CNN is a very liberal left wing biased news outlet. You only have one side of the story.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Can't really make a judgement since CNN is a very liberal left wing biased news outlet. You only have one side of the story.

Cajun is right. We should get the unvarnished truth from Faux News. Then we could make an informed decision.

Hey! Wait a minute!

Maybe Rush or Sean will tell us what to think!! Let's just wait until tomorrow's show, when the correct position will be revealed to us!!

This is just like listening to the old style "serial radio shows" ...

Only the Limbaugh knows ...

 

[robtex]

There is three different sources in that OP, ABC, NY Times and CNN. Anyone else can add any other sources on Jeremy Hall and the military they see fit.

 

[gnomon]

My reading of the NT leads me to believe that Christians ought not to be involved in the military at any level.

It's no problem for individuals to proselytize, but the military structure shouldn't favor (or hinder) any particular group simply on the basis of its doctrine.

Absolutely.

The military establishment itself ought not to favor or hinder any faith. However, as I've mentioned earlier, Christians ought not to be involved in the military.

I hope the guy wins his suit.

I pretty much agree with this assessment.

I would add that if what Major Welbourn did was true, he should be relieved of his command.

 

[Scott1]

I'm not sure if it has changed, but the Oath I took when entering the US Army was as follows:​

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
(Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).​

I'm not aware that the ommision of the "So help me God" was an option... does anyone have a reference that shows it's not part of the oath?​

 

[Storm]

Surely, Scott, you're not arguing that an archaic turn of phrase means that atheists cannot/ should not serve in our military?

 

[Scott1]

Surely, Scott, you're not arguing that an archaic turn of phrase means that atheists cannot/ should not serve in our military?

Nope.... not arguing any such thing.

 

[Storm]

OK, good. What was your point, then?

 

[Scott1]

1) Should one be a believer to serve one country?

Nope

2) Is the prosetyization and deliberate promotion of religious beliefs a conflict of interest in the idea of separation of church and state? Where should the line be drawn?

More important (IMO) to this thread is that it is contrary to the guidelines set up under the UCMJ.

This certainly includes deliberate promotion of "atheists and freethinkers" beliefs as well as Christian beliefs.

3) Does Jeremy have a legitimate complaint?

The Army has strict guidelines about what you can and can not do.... and since I personally know people in his unit, I can tell you that this article DOES NOT convey the truth of what happend.... and is simply an example of someone trying to get "paid".

People will do anything for money.

 

[Nessa]

Nope

More important (IMO) to this thread is that it is contrary to the guidelines set up under the UCMJ.

This certainly includes deliberate promotion of "atheists and freethinkers" beliefs as well as Christian beliefs.

The Army has strict guidelines about what you can and can not do.... and since I personally know people in his unit, I can tell you that this article DOES NOT convey the truth of what happend.... and is simply an example of someone trying to get "paid".

People will do anything for money.

He isn't seeking any money.

Hall isn't seeking compensation in his lawsuit -- just the guarantee of religious freedom in the military. Eventually, Hall was sent home early from Iraq and later returned to Fort Riley in Junction City, Kansas, to complete his tour of duty.

 

[McBell]

I can tell you that this article DOES NOT convey the truth of what happend.... and is simply an example of someone trying to get "paid".

People will do anything for money.

He isn't seeking any money.

Quote:
Hall isn't seeking compensation in his lawsuit -- just the guarantee of religious freedom in the military. Eventually, Hall was sent home early from Iraq and later returned to Fort Riley in Junction City, Kansas, to complete his tour of duty.​

​

That's gotta hurt

 

[logician]

The officer was wrong about our founding fathers, mostly who were not Christian, and some leaned towards atheism. Sadly, there is a strong anti -atheist undercurrent in AMerica - on the news tonight it showed illegal immgrants hiding out in churches because police would not arrest them in a church. Think atheists could pull the same stunt - hiding out in their homes claiming a belief in atheism? No way.

 

[Scott1]

He isn't seeking any money.

Being a little bit closer to the people involved, I can tell you that my information is different.....

 

[Riverwolf]

1) Should one be a believer to serve one country?

Simple question, simple answer. No. If someone wants to serve their country, and if one of the countries major laws is freedom of religion, then they should be allowed to serve regardless.

2) Is the prosetyization and deliberate promotion of religious beliefs a conflict of interest in the idea of separation of church and state? Where should the line be drawn?

Yes, it is a conflict. It should not be. The state controls the military, not the church. Therefore, anything governmental or military should not be religiously based or ban anyone for lack of religion.

3) Does Jeremy have a legitimate complaint?

Yes.

4) What should be the relationship between faith and the military?

There should be none. Faith debates have no place in the military. If someone wants to be in the military, it should not matter what they believe.

5) what is your reaction to these article?

I am appalled at the American military yet again. Yet another reason America doesn't deserve to be the world military power.

 

[Riverwolf]

The officer was wrong about our founding fathers, mostly who were not Christian, and some leaned towards atheism. Sadly, there is a strong anti -atheist undercurrent in AMerica - on the news tonight it showed illegal immgrants hiding out in churches because police would not arrest them in a church. Think atheists could pull the same stunt - hiding out in their homes claiming a belief in atheism? No way.

I do agree that seeking sanctuary from the law in a church is outdated. Certain things can be sought sanctuary from, but the law should not be one of them anymore.

 

[Riverwolf]

Being a little bit closer to the people involved, I can tell you that my information is different.....

Well then, instead of telling us your information is different, tell us the information you have.

Unless it's classified and you can't tell us.