Argument for living prophets in the LDS Church

[cardero]

ScottC writes: I simply want to point out the nature of their claims, establish their personal credibility as human beings, and point out that both the chances of them all lying or all being simultaneously deceived is very unlikely.

The credibility of a human BEing has nothing to do with the validity of the message that a prophet is promoting. Once the message is concluded to be a Truth or an Untruth, then anyone will be able to discern the credibility of the messenger. The prophet could be the most considerate, honest, loving, caring human being in the world, if the message is proven incorrect, the credibility of the prophet, the organization, the founder, the deity, is severely damaged. Despite how much faith one expresses, this is a possibility, this is the reality that every religion and religious person is currently facing.

 

[Scott C.]

The credibility of a human BEing has nothing to do with the validity of the message that a prophet is promoting. Once the message is concluded to be a Truth or an Untruth, then anyone will be able to discern the credibility of the messenger. The prophet could be the most considerate, loving, caring human being in the world, if the message is proven incorrect, the credibility of the prophet, the organization, the founder, the deity, is severely damaged. Despite how much faith one expresses, this is a possibility, this is the reality that every religion and religious person is currently at.

I think I agree with your post. The personal integrity of one who claims to be a prophet does not prove that he's a prophet. I hope my earlier posts did not suggest otherwise.

 

[cardero]

I think I agree with your post. The personal integrity of one who claims to be a prophet does not prove that he's a prophet. I hope my earlier posts did not suggest otherwise.

As long as we understand each other.
Also please explain to me what you mean by the term perfect knowledge.

 

[Scott C.]

As long as we understand each other.
Also please explain to me what you mean by the term perfect knowledge.

A perfect knowledge is a knowledge that can't be any stronger. See the example I gave earlier this morning in a different post, concerning the perfect knowledge that I have of my wife.

While I use the term "know" to refer to my personal testimony of Christ, I don't claim to have a perfect knowledge of Christ. My personal spiritual experiences have given me a knowledge, a certitude if you will, but I recognize that this knowledge could be more certain and therefore is not perfect. But "believe" just doesn't seem like a strong enough word to describe it.

But, there are others, examples being our Apostles (but not limited to Apostles), who's revelations are strong and specific enough that they have a perfect knowledge. It means they "know" of Christ as well as it is humanly possible to know anything. Without that perfect knowledge, one is not qualified to be an Apostle, IMO.

Again, these are my personal thoughts on the subject and might not agree 100% with the way some LDS see the issue.

 

[Mister Emu]

I can't think of a reasonable alternate explanation that takes all things into proper consideration.

The expectancy effect?

 

[Scott C.]

The expectancy effect?

Enlighten me please.

 

[Mister Emu]

Enlighten me please.

The effect of expectancy on results...

College students told they were drinking alcoholic beverages, even though they weren't, reported feeling drunk, exhibited less stress, and even drove cars similarly to subjects that actually did consume alcohol.

A religious experience I would find comparable is Glossolalia. People are raised believing that at some point they will go into a trance and start speaking what they've heard their whole life, so they actualize it.

 

[tomspug]

The effect of expectancy on results...

College students told they were drinking alcoholic beverages, even though they weren't, reported feeling drunk, exhibited less stress, and even drove cars similarly to subjects that actually did consume alcohol.

A religious experience I would find comparable is Glossolalia. People are raised believing that at some point they will go into a trance and start speaking what they've heard their whole life, so they actualize it.

Isn't expectancy also a determinant for hysteria? That's how people can get caught up into what is going on around them to the point that they lose control over their own will.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'll start with (3). As a practicing Latter-day Saint, I know first hand of the sincerity of most members of my church. For example, I don't claim to be a prophet. But, I know in my heart that I'm sincere in my LDS convictions. Someone might argue that I'm deceived, but nobody can successfully argue that I lie about what I believe. I am no different in this regard to most other members of my church.

Nobody in my church volunteers to become leaders in the church. These opportunities come as callings from higher leaders. I could theoretically be called to be a Bishop, a Stake President, or a member of the Quorum of the Twelve. All of the 15 who now claim to be prophets were once like me, a believing church member in no particular position of prominence. If I were called to join the Twelve, would it be reasonable to think that I switched from being honest to being a liar? No, it would not be.

Based on the general honesty of rank and file Mormons and based on the fact that leaders are called from among those ranks, it is inconceivable to think that those who are called as Apostles and Prophets do not honestly believe in their calling, To be otherwise, when a person is called to high position in my church, they would have to discover that the church is not true, decide to stop believing, decide to become a liar, and then claim to be a prophet in order to propogate the falsehood. They would leave the ranks of the "deceived" to join the ranks of the "deceiver". Perhaps a couple of people here and there could change stripes from integrity to liar over the years, but not the entire group of those who are called to be Prophets and Apostles.

I, therefore, find (3) to be an impossible and an illogical idea, based on my firsthand experience in the LDS Church.

A few things come to mind about this.

First off, you're trying to draw inferences about the characteristics of individuals from the aggregate characteristics of a group to which they belong. This is bad logic and generally not valid, especially when you've pointed out some very significant ways that these men are different from the general church membership (e.g. being prophets). If you want a detailed explanation of why this isn't valid, I suggest you read Full House by Steven Jay Gould.

Second, I don't think your characterization of all Mormons is accurate. It does seem to me like most Mormons are honest and upstanding people, but every community has some deviants, even if it's only a small number. Answer me this: have you ever heard of a Mormon criminal? Have you ever seen a door with a lock on it anywhere inside a Mormon Temple?

Let's discuss (2). All 15 men claim to be prophets and apostles. They claim to have had sacred spiritual experiences, after which God specifically commanded them to not reveal it, due to its sacredness, and due to the fact that many would ridicule. Joseph Smith was commanded to speak freely of his revelations, but in our day, the prophets have been commanded to not speak so freely of theirs. Nevertheless, all 15 of these men make it clear that they have each had such revelatory experiences. They testify that they have absoulte, positive knowledge of Jesus Christ, by revelation. If you're Christian, think of the certitude of Moses, Noah, Peter, or John as to what they believed. Their revelatory experiences lifted them beyond just believing into having a factual knowledge, as certain as they know that they exist. These 15 men in the LDS church claim to have the same revelatory knowledge.

Since we're on (2), let's consider if 15 men can be so deceived? It would not just be 15, but all 15 over the years from Joseph Smith forward. These men are highly intelligent. I already established their honesty. They come from the ranks of educators, heart surgeons, state supreme court judges, Harvard professors, scientists. and other reputable positions. They are men of great accomplishment and talent. These are not men who decided at some point in life that they wanted to enter the ministry because they felt "called". These are men who were literally plucked up from what they were doing and asked to serve in their current church position.

Knowing what I know about these 15 men, it's inconceivable to me that they are all deceived. They are too well grounded to all believe that they have had these miraculous revelations when they really didn't happen. It would be like believing that all 11 Apostles were deceived when Christ appeared to them after the resurrection and told them to touch his body and see for themselves.

If 2 and 3 are inconceivable, that leaves 1. Think about it.

Yes, I think it sounds quite improbable... it sounds like the sort of thing that might only happen... oh... once a decade on average. It certainly sounds like it's almost as improbable as a math professor giving up his life and reputation to live a solitary life of violent opposition to the industrialization of society.

Weird things sometimes happen, even to prominent people.

 

[Scott C.]

The effect of expectancy on results...

College students told they were drinking alcoholic beverages, even though they weren't, reported feeling drunk, exhibited less stress, and even drove cars similarly to subjects that actually did consume alcohol.

A religious experience I would find comparable is Glossolalia. People are raised believing that at some point they will go into a trance and start speaking what they've heard their whole life, so they actualize it.

I don't believe that it's possible that the LDS Apostles are experiencing "the effect of expectancy", if that's what you mean. I can't believe that a heart surgeon, a state supreme court judge, and a Harvard professor, for example, are asked to leave their professions to be Apostles, they join the quorum, and then each experiences the "effect of expectancy" so that they now think they have an "apostolic witness" of Christ.

People can have dillusisons. I accept that. I can see how expectancy could happen, now that you explain it. I don't believe this is possible for this group of men however. I really think if you knew these men and studied their lives carefully that you also would find it hard to believe that their claims to an "apostolic witness of Christ" can be explained based on the "effects of expectancy">

 

[Scott C.]

A few things come to mind about this.

First off, you're trying to draw inferences about the characteristics of individuals from the aggregate characteristics of a group to which they belong. This is bad logic and generally not valid, especially when you've pointed out some very significant ways that these men are different from the general church membership (e.g. being prophets). If you want a detailed explanation of why this isn't valid, I suggest you read Full House by Steven Jay Gould.

Second, I don't think your characterization of all Mormons is accurate. It does seem to me like most Mormons are honest and upstanding people, but every community has some deviants, even if it's only a small number. Answer me this: have you ever heard of a Mormon criminal? Have you ever seen a door with a lock on it anywhere inside a Mormon Temple?

Yes, there are deviants. I agree. But if 90% of the devout Mormons are honest about what they believe and the Apostles are chosen from the ranks of such people, it's unlikely that most, some, or even any of them are dishonest about what they believe.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, there are deviants. I agree. But if 90% of the devout Mormons are honest about what they believe and the Apostles are chosen from the ranks of such people, it's unlikely that most, some, or even any of them are dishonest about what they believe.

This makes no sense. According to adherents.com, there are ~11,000,000 Mormons. Assuming that 90% of them are honest, that still leaves more than a million who aren't. This is more than adequate as a pool from which to draw 15 people.

Also, you're slipping a condition in there without any defense: why do you automatically assume that Apostles are chosen out of the ranks of honest Mormons?

And think of a similar argument to yours: if 90% of devout, honest Mormons make no claim to prophethood, then it's unlikely that most, some, or even any of them would ever claim to be a prophet. Doesn't that speak against the possibility of them being genuinely prophets just as much as what you're suggesting?

Let me see if I can break down what you're suggesting:

- by virtue of their status as prophets, the 15 prophets of the LDS church are different from other Church members. This difference has its foundation in something.
- it would be very unlikely that they would be lying, so the odds are negligible that that would be the root of the difference.
- it would be very unlikely that they would be deluded or deceived, so the odds are negligible that that would be the root of the difference.
- therefore, without any consideration of its odds, the only option remaining is that they are legitimate prophets ordained by God, which by elimination must be correct.

 

[madhatter85]

If a person claims to be a prophet of God, one of the following must be true:

1. The person knows he is a prophet, is telling the truth, and is a prophet.
2. The person thinks he's a prophet, is telling the truth of what he believes, but is deceived (by Satan, mental disorder, low intelligence, doesn't understand what a prophet is, misinterprets personal experiences, etc., etc.) and is not a prophet.
3. The person knows he is not a prophet, is intentionally lying, and is not a prophet.

In the LDS Church, 15 men claim to be prophets of God. This includes the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve.

I'll start with (3). As a practicing Latter-day Saint, I know first hand of the sincerity of most members of my church. For example, I don't claim to be a prophet. But, I know in my heart that I'm sincere in my LDS convictions. Someone might argue that I'm deceived, but nobody can successfully argue that I lie about what I believe. I am no different in this regard to most other members of my church.

Nobody in my church volunteers to become leaders in the church. These opportunities come as callings from higher leaders. I could theoretically be called to be a Bishop, a Stake President, or a member of the Quorum of the Twelve. All of the 15 who now claim to be prophets were once like me, a believing church member in no particular position of prominence. If I were called to join the Twelve, would it be reasonable to think that I switched from being honest to being a liar? No, it would not be.

Based on the general honesty of rank and file Mormons and based on the fact that leaders are called from among those ranks, it is inconceivable to think that those who are called as Apostles and Prophets do not honestly believe in their calling, To be otherwise, when a person is called to high position in my church, they would have to discover that the church is not true, decide to stop believing, decide to become a liar, and then claim to be a prophet in order to propogate the falsehood. They would leave the ranks of the "deceived" to join the ranks of the "deceiver". Perhaps a couple of people here and there could change stripes from integrity to liar over the years, but not the entire group of those who are called to be Prophets and Apostles.

I, therefore, find (3) to be an impossible and an illogical idea, based on my firsthand experience in the LDS Church.

Let's discuss (2). All 15 men claim to be prophets and apostles. They claim to have had sacred spiritual experiences, after which God specifically commanded them to not reveal it, due to its sacredness, and due to the fact that many would ridicule. Joseph Smith was commanded to speak freely of his revelations, but in our day, the prophets have been commanded to not speak so freely of theirs. Nevertheless, all 15 of these men make it clear that they have each had such revelatory experiences. They testify that they have absoulte, positive knowledge of Jesus Christ, by revelation. If you're Christian, think of the certitude of Moses, Noah, Peter, or John as to what they believed. Their revelatory experiences lifted them beyond just believing into having a factual knowledge, as certain as they know that they exist. These 15 men in the LDS church claim to have the same revelatory knowledge.

Since we're on (2), let's consider if 15 men can be so deceived? It would not just be 15, but all 15 over the years from Joseph Smith forward. These men are highly intelligent. I already established their honesty. They come from the ranks of educators, heart surgeons, state supreme court judges, Harvard professors, scientists. and other reputable positions. They are men of great accomplishment and talent. These are not men who decided at some point in life that they wanted to enter the ministry because they felt "called". These are men who were literally plucked up from what they were doing and asked to serve in their current church position.

Knowing what I know about these 15 men, it's inconceivable to me that they are all deceived. They are too well grounded to all believe that they have had these miraculous revelations when they really didn't happen. It would be like believing that all 11 Apostles were deceived when Christ appeared to them after the resurrection and told them to touch his body and see for themselves.

If 2 and 3 are inconceivable, that leaves 1. Think about it.

one thing you forgot to mention is that thier prophecies must come to pass.

A Prophet does 3 things:

1) Teaches, a Prophet is a teacher. That is the essential meaning of the word. He teaches the body of truth, the Gospel, revealed by the Lord to man; and under inspiration explains it to the understanding of the people. He is an expounder of truth. Also, he shows that the way to human happiness is through obedience to God's Law. the purpose of his life is to uphold the Lord's plan of salvation. all this he does by close communion with the Lord, until he is "full of power, even the spirit of the Lord" (Micah 3:8)

2) Seer. A seer is one who sees with spiritual eyes. He perceives the meaning of that which seems obscure to others; therefore he is an interpreter and clarifier of eternal truth. He forsees the future from the past and the present. This he does by the power of the Lord operating through him directly, or indirectly with the aid of divine instruments such as the urim and Thummim. He is one who walks in the Lord's light with open eyes.

3) Revelator. A revelator makes known, with the Lord's help, something before unknown. It may be new or forgotten truth, or a new or forgotten application of known truth to man's need. Always the revelator deals with Truth, certain Truth and always it comes with the divine stamp of approval. Revelation may be recieved in various ways, but it always presupposes that the revelator has so lived and conducted himself as to be in tune with the divine spirit of revelation, the spirit of truth, and therefore capable or recieving divine messages.

In another sense any worthy church member who has the gift of the Holy Ghost can be termed a "prophet." the bible states clearly -

Numbers 11:29 -

29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

Paul later tells us that prophecy is a "greater gift," to be coveted, and not despised
1st Corinthians 12:

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1st Thessalonians 5:

20 Despise not prophesyings.

From this we paint a clear picture that Prophetic voice is clear and concise and not confusing.
Also, Moroni shows us how to judge correctly what is prophetic utterances of God and what are of false prophets.
Moroni 7:16-17

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

 

[madhatter85]

False prophesy, by definition, is a prophetic utterance which does not come to pass, or which blinds and leads men astray from the true Doctrine of Christ.

False prophecies can be made out of ignorance (zeal without true knowlege) or from a desire to thwart the plans of God. In either case, Satan is ultimately the beneficiary of the resulting confusion.

 

[madhatter85]

The following criteria given by Heber C. Snell is a great one to help us discern between true and false prophesy.

1) "Is the revelator is a disinterested or does he stand to profit from it's acceptance? The prophets must be self-denying to the point of willingness to die for the message."
2)"Is the prophetsi message in harmony with knowlege of the past and present, especially the scriptures?"
3) "Does the prophecy look confidently to the future for the consummation of knowlege and the triumph of Good over Evil?"
4) "What is it's position with refrence to man's freedom? The false prophet is afraid to see intelligence liberated- he fears investigation of ideas lest his own suffer by comparison. Not so the true prophet. As the prophet Joseph smith said, 'I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves.' "
5) "The greatest of all tests: the tests of accurate results. Does the prophecy come to pass?"
6)"What is the personal integrity of the revelator?"

-Heber c. Snell

 

[Starfish]

This makes no sense. According to adherents.com, there are ~11,000,000 Mormons. Assuming that 90% of them are honest, that still leaves more than a million who aren't. This is more than adequate as a pool from which to draw 15 people.

As a lifetime LDS, this is strikes me as hilarious! Sorry, Penguin, I'm not laughing at you. But this seems so ridiculous if you know these men. Oh my goodness, you have no idea. You have no clue what you're talking about. But how could you? Again, I'm not making fun of you; you just don't know what you're saying.

I have lived very close to LDS leadership on local levels. The calabar of people who serve in the LDS Church, with very few exceptions, is impressive--and that's a major understatement. Even the humble bishop who works his tail off, inspires me. Believe me, in this church, we do not ask for these positions. Very few want them. No one wants to be a bishop, or stake president, etc. Many have the feelings of Jonah of the Bible who fled from the Lord when he was called to serve. Almost all feel completely inadequate!

I can confidently assure you that the men who lead this church, each went through personal crisis of varied degrees when they were first called to serve. Each felt they fell far short in worthiness and strength, for what they would be expected to do. It's through tremendous humility and leaning completely upon the Lord, that they are able to become the spiritual giants that we see today. This is exactly the pattern we see in the Bible whenever a man is called by the Lord to be his prophet.

But the suggestion that they come from the questionable "10%" is so funny.

 

[madhatter85]

The following criteria given by Heber C. Snell is a great one to help us discern between true and false prophesy.

1) "Is the revelator is a disinterested or does he stand to profit from it's acceptance? The prophets must be self-denying to the point of willingness to die for the message."

Good question, Have any of our prophets profited from the message of the restoration. I have to assert that no they did not. He never made any money off being a prohet and he worked for his own living. also, persecutions and vehement attacks abounded in the days of Joseph Smith, his family and his friends were all at risk of being killed by angry mobs all the time. This behavior of angry mobs is clearly not of God.
2nd Nephi 28:

19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;
20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

2)"Is the prophet's message in harmony with knowlege of the past and present, especially the scriptures?"

Clearly it has to be in regards to LDS scripture seeing as we dedicate years of our life to studying the scripture and scruitinizing every single detail of the Bible (the only scripture previous to jospeh smith) and looking for contradictions between it and the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of great price. and when interpited correctly nothing conflicts with eachother but instead work harmoniously to combine all knowlege of the past with current revelations for the Dispensation of the Fulness fo times.

3) "Does the prophecy look confidently to the future for the consummation of knowlege and the triumph of Good over Evil?"

Clearly, This message speaks for itself. we look forward to that day of redemption and judgement more so than i think alot of other chrisitans do.

4) "What is it's position with refrence to man's freedom? The false prophet is afraid to see intelligence liberated- he fears investigation of ideas lest his own suffer by comparison. Not so the true prophet. As the prophet Joseph smith said, 'I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves.' "

Jospeh smith fought for everyone's freedom. and not only secular freedoms such as slavery, and the right to vote. but also from all kinds of bondage. Debts and addictions especially. in fact, women in utah had the right to vote and had been actively voting for years before the women's right movement. also, black men and women lived free in the utah territory long before slavery was abolished.

5) "The greatest of all tests: the tests of accurate results. Does the prophecy come to pass?"

I can assure you that yes this is correct. there has not been a single prophecy uttered by the mouths of our prophets which have not come to pass. There have been fradulent attempts and creating prophesy where there was none by some people throughout history of the church (both in the church and out of it), all have been quickly debunked and deemd fraudulent by not only the church but those outside of it.

6)"What is the personal integrity of the revelator?"

that would make them be subject do deep scrutiny, and another question in my mind is if they are afraid of what people might find in thier past. i can assure you that a person with such strong integrity will not waver or be afraid of what people will discover about them. All the prophets have been under direct scruitiny by secular agencies and groups that lay in wait to try and attack the credibility of the prophets, and they have yet to find anything.

-Heber c. Snell

Thanks Heber for those wonderful questions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As a lifetime LDS, this is strikes me as hilarious! Sorry, Penguin, I'm not laughing at you. But this seems so ridiculous if you know these men. Oh my goodness, you have no idea. You have no clue what you're talking about. But how could you? Again, I'm not making fun of you; you just don't know what you're saying.

I don't know any of them, and my personal feeling is that option 2 is the most likely of the 3, but my point was mainly with the logic Scott presented: he didn't say that he knows the prophets in question to be individually honest and of good character, and not the sort of people to lie about things like this; he said that because 90% of the membership of the LDS Church are good, then the prophets of the LDS Church must be good as well. This logic doesn't work. It doesn't mean that the prophets are bad people; it just means that Scott's argument is a bad one.

 

[madhatter85]

As a lifetime LDS, this is strikes me as hilarious! Sorry, Penguin, I'm not laughing at you. But this seems so ridiculous if you know these men. Oh my goodness, you have no idea. You have no clue what you're talking about. But how could you? Again, I'm not making fun of you; you just don't know what you're saying.

I have lived very close to LDS leadership on local levels. The calabar of people who serve in the LDS Church, with very few exceptions, is impressive--and that's a major understatement. Even the humble bishop who works his tail off, inspires me. Believe me, in this church, we do not ask for these positions. Very few want them. No one wants to be a bishop, or stake president, etc. Many have the feelings of Jonah of the Bible who fled from the Lord when he was called to serve. Almost all feel completely inadequate!

I can confidently assure you that the men who lead this church, each went through personal crisis of varied degrees when they were first called to serve. Each felt they fell far short in worthiness and strength, for what they would be expected to do. It's through tremendous humility and leaning completely upon the Lord, that they are able to become the spiritual giants that we see today. This is exactly the pattern we see in the Bible whenever a man is called by the Lord to be his prophet.

But the suggestion that they come from the questionable "10%" is so funny.

there's probably more than 10% "Many are called but few are chosen"

 

[madhatter85]

I don't know any of them, and my personal feeling is that option 2 is the most likely of the 3, but my point was mainly with the logic Scott presented: he didn't say that he knows the prophets in question to be individually honest and of good character, and not the sort of people to lie about things like this; he said that because 90% of the membership of the LDS Church are good, then the prophets of the LDS Church must be good as well. This logic doesn't work. It doesn't mean that the prophets are bad people; it just means that Scott's argument is a bad one.

please refer to my arguments above. thanks.