Scott C.
Just one guy
A tremendous amount of religious work has been accomplished by and because of the messages of the modern day prophets. But, to believe that it is significant, one needs to believe the message.
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Argument for living prophets in the LDS Church
- Thread starter Scott C.
- Start date
A tremendous amount of religious work has been accomplished by and because of the messages of the modern day prophets. But, to believe that it is significant, one needs to believe the message.
Scott C.
Just one guy
You're not interacting directly with the OP. You're sharing your views on why you don't accept living prophets, but not offering an opinion on how you see them fit into category 1, 2, or 3 or finding holes in the logic I present in the OP.
Tomorrow millions will eat at mcdonalds, many people will die and the days overall mood will be purple. A mom will lose her keys but then will find them a week from now, the sun will rise and a watch in new york will stop and a man will have to choose betwen a $19 watch batter and $29 watch battery and will ponder how 4 double As can cost so little.
Thousands of computers will be plagued with viruses and sadly there will be many car crashes. All of these predictions the lord has granted unto me as a sign of the times and its purplish tone. A particular note... This vision is coming through quite clear... if it doesnt mean something now you must right it down because it will mean something to you soon. Through the internet its a hard predicition but heres what I see... this man is old... not very old but older than 30. You must be careful of a symbol today... a seated man... this sigil is strong and quite prevalent. It is revered and is protected by many. You must stay away from this symbol today.
..... Dude... that was weird. What happened?
So essentially you believe there is no other explanation to account for their claim of being a prophet?
tomspug
Absorbant
Yeah, cuz that's exactly the same as predicting the exact date of the birth of Christ 400 years previous, his lineage, and what he would accomplish in his life.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Real prophets convey God's will to His Church. If it is God's will that His people know in advance of something that is to happen, He would communicate this information to us through a living prophet, just as He promised in Old Testament times He would do. Most of the time, however, it's not a matter of God saying something like, "On August 5 at 3:47 P.M., there will be an earthquake in San Francisco." It's more a matter of God telling His prophet to stress to the membership of His Church the need to be prepared for natural disasters, to have essential food and supplies to sustain themselves and their families in case of an emergency.
Joseph Smith, for example, never "prophesied" that some one hundred and fifty years in the future, tobacco would be found to be harmful to the human body. He did, however, receive a revelation (in 1838) instructing the Latter-day Saints to abstain from using it because it was not a healthy substance to take into our bodies. While he didn't "predict something that actually came true," he did communicate God's will to the Church and those in the Church who obeyed his counsel, whether in the nineteenth, twentieth or twenty-first centuries, have been proven to have a life expectancy that surpasses the national average.
The exact date eh... What book are you reading mate?
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
"Through the internet its a hard predicition but heres what I see... this man is old... not very old but older than 30. You must be careful of a symbol today... a seated man... this sigil is strong and quite prevalent. It is revered and is protected by many. You must stay away from this symbol today."
Okay, if the Lincoln Memorial gets bombed, I'm turning you in to Homeland Security.
Regards,
Scott
Okay, if the Lincoln Memorial gets bombed, I'm turning you in to Homeland Security.
Regards,
Scott
Actually I was going for a fender bender near a handicap parking spot since that seems to have some remote chance of actually happening.
As I said before. I know you guys truly believe this stuff... And you use sincerety of the prophets as your basis for assessing the truth because you really have nothing else to base that belief on.
Like tomspug said... some dude predicted the exact date jesus would be born... I beleive the exact date was ... hmm let me think January or December... No no it was something like soon... oh yeah... shortly. Shortly is pretty exact.
Starfish
Please no sarcasm
Of the sincere people of the rank and file of the Church, one doesn't have to be one of the "15" to be well acquainted with revelation. The Church is full of leadership positions at local levels that rely upon the Spirit to function. Stake leadership is run much the same way as in the 1st Presidency, and they simply could not do their jobs without the Holy Ghost. They don't do anything without spiritual backup. With the constant changes in stake callings, priesthood ordinations, church discipline, and instruction to the wards, the help of the Holy Ghost is in everything. Hopefully it's the same on the ward levels. I just know in our stake, this is how it is.
There is no deception. These are honest men and the influence of the Holy Ghost, communicating God's will in any given matter, is something they experience regularly. I know this without doubt. So I have no doubt that this is exactly the same on the regional levels on up to the general, all church, level. These people have no reason to do what they do, other than a dedication to serve God. They don't ask for it, just as Christ's disciples didn't ask. But they laid down their fishing nets and went.
There is no deception. These are honest men and the influence of the Holy Ghost, communicating God's will in any given matter, is something they experience regularly. I know this without doubt. So I have no doubt that this is exactly the same on the regional levels on up to the general, all church, level. These people have no reason to do what they do, other than a dedication to serve God. They don't ask for it, just as Christ's disciples didn't ask. But they laid down their fishing nets and went.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Right, we do.
Huh? Somebody else's sincerety is totally beside the point. I have never based my faith on what someone else thinks or says or feels. That would be pure stupidity.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Baha`u'llah addressed a number of heads of state in 1867-1870 in tablets and letters. This includes Kaiser Wilhelm I, Franz Joseph of Austria, The Shah of Persia, The Sultan of the Ottoman Empires, Tsar Nicholas of Russia, and Queen Victoria.
"
"
In ‘Akká, Bahá’u’lláh continued the dictation of a series of letters to individual rulers, which He had begun in Adrianople. Several contained warnings of the judgment of God on their negligence and misrule, warnings whose dramatic fulfillment aroused intense public discussion throughout the Near East. Less than two months after the exiles arrived in the prison-city, for example, Fu’ád Páshá, the Ottoman foreign minister, whose misrepresentations had helped precipitate the banishment, was abruptly dismissed from his post and died in France of a heart attack. The event was marked by a statement which predicted the early dismissal of his colleague, Prime Minister ‘Alí Páshá, the overthrow and death of the Sultan, and the loss of Turkish territories in Europe, a series of disasters which followed on the heels of one another.78
A letter to Emperor Napoleon III warned that, because of his insincerity and the misuse of his power: “...thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought.... Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My life! It shall not endure...”79 Of the disastrous Franco-Prussian War and the resulting overthrow of Napoleon III, which occurred less than a year after this statement, Alistair Horne, a modern scholar of nineteenth century French political history has written:
A letter to Emperor Napoleon III warned that, because of his insincerity and the misuse of his power: “...thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought.... Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My life! It shall not endure...”79 Of the disastrous Franco-Prussian War and the resulting overthrow of Napoleon III, which occurred less than a year after this statement, Alistair Horne, a modern scholar of nineteenth century French political history has written:
History knows of perhaps no more startling instance of what the Greeks called peripateia, the terrible fall from prideful heights. Certainly no nation in modern times, so replete with apparent grandeur and opulent in material achievement, has ever been subjected to a worse humiliation in so short a time.80
Only a few months before the unexpected series of events in Europe that led to the invasion of the Papal States and the annexation of Rome by the forces of the new Kingdom of Italy, a statement addressing Pope Pius IX had urged the Pontiff “Abandon thy kingdom unto the kings, and emerge from thy habitation, with thy face set towards the Kingdom... Be as thy Lord hath been.... Verily, the day of ingathering is come, and all things have been separated from each other. He hath stored away that which He chose in the vessels of justice, and cast into the fire that which befitteth it....”81
Wilhelm I, King of Prussia, whose armies had won such a sweeping victory in the Franco-Prussian War, had been warned by Bahá’u’lláh in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas to heed the example of the fall of Napoleon III and of other rulers who had been victorious in war, and not to allow pride to keep him back from recognizing this Revelation. That Bahá’u’lláh foresaw the failure of the German Emperor to respond to this warning is shown by the ominous passage which appears later in that same Book:
Wilhelm I, King of Prussia, whose armies had won such a sweeping victory in the Franco-Prussian War, had been warned by Bahá’u’lláh in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas to heed the example of the fall of Napoleon III and of other rulers who had been victorious in war, and not to allow pride to keep him back from recognizing this Revelation. That Bahá’u’lláh foresaw the failure of the German Emperor to respond to this warning is shown by the ominous passage which appears later in that same Book:
O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.82"
Bahaullah (Baha'u'llah - Bahá'u'lláh) بهاءالله
He praised Queen Victoria for her actions which had widened the franchise for voters in Britain and she was the only one to answer the tablet courteously. All the other addressed heads of state fell violently one way or another within two to forty-eight years.
Bahaullah (Baha'u'llah - Bahá'u'lláh) بهاءالله
He praised Queen Victoria for her actions which had widened the franchise for voters in Britain and she was the only one to answer the tablet courteously. All the other addressed heads of state fell violently one way or another within two to forty-eight years.
cardero
Citizen Mod
How do real prophets prove that GOD really has a will and wants people to establish churches?
1. Why cannot GOD do this individually? Why cannot everyone be a prophet? If the knowledge does indeed come from GOD and involve all humankind, why wouldn’t GOD reveal this to every human instead of appointing or calling someone?
2. Wouldn’t the validation of everyone receiving the same information prove that it comes from the same entity?
3. If not every individual, would just revealing this information to all organized religion leaders be just as impressive?
4. In your experience, do all religious leaders receive the same revelations from GOD for humankind?
5. Would not GOD want everyone to understand His will and knowledge?
What reason do your leaders provide to the congregation about other religious organizations that do not receive the same information?
If you answered no to question No. 4, what in your opinion would be the reason that this important information is not consistent or if inconsistent, why isn’t this information corrected by GOD?
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cardero
Citizen Mod
What good is this knowledge if one does not know if it is True?
If one has to apply faith in these communications (because they do not know the Truth or Untruth), couldn''t there still be room for doubt or at least skepticism?
Isn’t there still room that these communications can be concluded to be Untrue?
The question that I am impressing upon you is what exactly does the Mormon organization possess with these communications? Is it Truth? Is it Faith? Are they just the hopeful opinions of a group of like-minded individuals?
How do these communications compare to other (possibly contrary or contradicting) revelations for humankind of other modern-day revelators who receive communications from GOD?
What kind of service does GOD need from humans?
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idea
Question Everything
With the Holy Spirit - you can actually know ...
If you see an angel... If you heard a voice ... You might not have the experience to understand yet, the Holy Spirit is real - it is all real, that is how you know, not really from books or people, you can actually know from an actual being.
link
If one man can live upon the revelations given to another, might not I with propriety ask, why the necessity, then, of the Lord speaking to Isaac as he did, as is recorded in the 26th chapter of Genesis? For the Lord there repeats, or rather promises again, to perform the oath which he had previously sworn unto Abraham. And why this repetition to Isaac? Why was not the first promise as sure for Isaac as it was for Abraham? Was not Isaac Abrahams son? And could he not place implicit confidence in the word of his father as being a man of God? Perhaps you may say that he was a very peculiar man and different from men in these last days; consequently, the Lord favored him with blessings peculiar and different, as he was different from men in this age. I admit that he was a peculiar man and was not only peculiarly blessed, but greatly blessed. But all the peculiarity that I can discover in the man, or all the difference between him and men in this age, is that he was more holy and more perfect before God and came to him with a purer heart and more faith than men in this day.
The same might be said on the subject of Jacobs history. Why was it that the Lord spake to him concerning the same promise after he had made it once to Abraham and renewed it to Isaac? Why could not Jacob rest contented upon the word spoken to his fathers?
When the time of the promise drew nigh for the deliverance of the children of Israel from the land of Egypt, why was it necessary that the Lord should begin to speak to them? The promise or word to Abraham was that his seed should serve in bondage and be afflicted four hundred years, and after that they should come out with great substance. Why did they not rely upon this promise and, when they had remained in Egypt in bondage four hundred years, come out without waiting for further revelation, but act entirely upon the promise given to Abraham that they should come out?
I may believe that Enoch walked with God. I may believe that Abraham communed with God and conversed with angels. I may believe that Isaac obtained a renewal of the covenant made to Abraham by the direct voice of the Lord. I may believe that Jacob conversed with holy angels and heard the word of his Maker, that he wrestled with the angel until he prevailed and obtained a blessing. I may believe that Elijah was taken to heaven in a chariot of fire with fiery horses. I may believe that the saints saw the Lord and conversed with him face to face after his resurrection. I may believe that the Hebrew church came to Mount Zion and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels. I may believe that they looked into eternity and saw the Judge of all, and Jesus, the Mediator of the new covenant.
But will all this purchase an assurance for me, or waft me to the regions of eternal day with my garments spotless, pure, and white? Or, must I not rather obtain for myself, by my own faith and diligence in keeping the commandments of the Lord, an assurance of salvation for myself? And have I not an equal privilege with the ancient saints? And will not the Lord hear my prayers and listen to my cries as soon as he ever did to theirs if I come to him in the manner they did?5
posess? the same thing that the people in the OT and NT had.
Anyone can communicate with God, Mormons do not hold a monopoly on it. There are many different spirits out there, I can only know what I have experienced, by their fruits ye shall know them etc...
no service at all.
?
If you lived 2-3,000 years ago, What tests would you give to the prophets of old? How would you make them prove themself?
Sorry I didn't mean to imply specifically that you did. I was trying to point out that the evidence for prophets is only their word and if you read the OP, sincerity is cited.
These people are very good and honest people who are both incapable of being decieved or of decieving others. (Whether intentionally or otherwise)
It is not stupid to base your faith on what someone else says since the majority of religions out there are basing their faith on what their parents said or what their holy book says and do not have nor require any hard evidence.
I could call it faith, blind faith, groundless... But I wouldn't say stupid. The obvious question is what evidence supports this belief in prophets? What evidence supports that god exists? What evidence is there that your identified god is the true god among the 1000s of others worshipped today? What evidence supports god actively communicates with people here on earth?
I again don't expect you to answer those questions nor am I attacking your faith in any way. I am just explaining my view.
Scott C.
Just one guy
I can't think of a reasonable alternate explanation that takes all things into proper consideration.
Scott C.
Just one guy
There are many, many reasons why I believe in living prophets. My faith is based on my own personal spiritual experiences. But, this thread is not about that and has a limited scope. I'm not arguing here for the validity of prophets based on fulfilled prophesies, my personal witnesses, or other prophetic results. I simply want to point out the nature of their claims, establish their personal credibility as human beings, and point out that both the chances of them all lying or all being simultaneously deceived is very unlikely.
Establishing their sincerity is very important. An accusation frequently made against our prophets is that they are lying, starting from Joseph Smith down to the present day. If we can establish that this is not the case, a major argument against them is eliminated. That does not mean that it's been proven that they are prophets - but it eliminates a common claim against them. Once their integrity is established, the only other explanation ever given to argue against their divine calling is that they are deceived.
I suspect that some who post here doubt their sincerity and some do not. Some believe they are simply deceived. I have not seen any arguments in this thread, so far, that make good arguments to question either of these points. The arguments tend to just give reasons why people believe they are not prophets, again without interacting with the points made in the OP.
cardero
Citizen Mod
Is this knowledge of the Truth (or Untruth) transferable? Can the example of Truth (or Untruth) be demonstrated in fact and reality and be provable in the form that cannot be denied but offer others the option to accept or reject?
Please explain to me how seeing an angel or hearing a voice, defining or producing a spirit that can only be described as holy using the post that I have outlined in red would thoroughly, Truthfully (without a doubt) originate with a/the One True GOD and not be mistaken or misinterpreted for a hallucinatory figment of one’s imagination or a mental or a personal (or mass) emotional normality or disorder.
So if a person received and documented communications today (like the people of the Old and New Testament did) from a Being claiming to be GOD (like the people of the Old and New Testament did) you would willingly incorporate, follow and adhere to this revelator’s inspired writings?
Why would some religions require or encourage missionaries to go into service then? What is this for? Who is this for?
I would probably direct the prophets of old to the above outline directed in red? If I lived back 2000 or 3000 years ago, how do you think they would do on this test? Comparing what the prophets of old wrote to the reality of today, how well do you think they would perform on my test? Would it be well enough for everyone to no longer require faith? Would it well enough to reduce the number of interpretations and organizations that religions promote today?
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Scott C.
Just one guy
Let me use an example of certainty. I've been married to my wife for 26 years. I'm certain of the following:
1. She exists.
2. She is a physical being.
3. She is my wife.
It is not possible for me to be any more certain of any of these 3 points than I am now. It's not possible that I'm deceived.
I suppose someone could argue that in reality I am deceived. One could argue that in reality I'm the only being that exists and everything I experience is a hallucination. I'm not sure how to argue against that suggestion. I can only say that I'm as certain of these 3 points above, as anyone can possibly be certain of any thing.
When a person in my church claims to be a prophet or Apostle, which I do not claim for myself, he claims to have a certain knowledge of Jesus as certain as what I have described in relation to my wife, or more specifically:
1 Jesus Christ lives.
2. He is a resurrected physical being.
3. He is our Savior.
The experiences that give this knowledge are just as certain as the knowledge I have of my wife, whether they be given by personal visitations or manifestations of the Spirit of God, or both. Maybe not all LDS agree exactly with me on these points. I represent this as my thoughts and feelings only.
So, again, if you understand the claims of the living Apostles and want to argue that they are deceived, you have to make an argument strong enough to counteract what they claim to be above and beyond belief, and counter what they claim to be experiences that put their knowledge into the realm of absolute perfect knowledge.
And then, if you make an argument for one of them being decieved, you have to account for this exact same deception happening to multiple people at different times and in different places.