• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Death, Adam and... stuff...

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
Sola'lor posted something in a topic about dinosaurs that got me thinking.

Well. I'm glad to know something of what I post is thought provoking.

If death didn't exist in the world before the fall, then why are their fossils of DEAD creatures all over the world, which pre-date humanity?

I still don't know the answer. I do believe in a pretty much literal Adam and Eve story. I don't think Adam and Eved evolved from anything. But I also believe scientific dating of prehistoric animal is pretty much accurate. I support science.

I read a post earlier about a 'what if' if science had to be limited to a book as religions are. I personally don't see religions as being 'limited' by the Bible. But the same could be said that science is limited by only those things it can observe. If religion had been limited by only what could be observed and measured there wouldn't be much hope for salvation.

Anyway back to the prehistoric animals. I made a post in that dinosaurs thread of a scenario that could allow for both The Adam and Eve story to be true and also allow for death of prehistoric creatures.I'll copy my post below. Please remeber that this is based on my belief in LDs scripture so some concepts may be foreign to others.

sola'lor said:
We know that the scriptures only reveal things relating to our salvation here on the Earth. We know very little about things other than what is relevent to us. My thought was what if there was a system of salvation for proto-man. In the other thread we were talking about salvation for animals. I imagine proto-man is somewhere between us and animals. So what if God instituted a 'religion' or way to salvation(not exhaltation) for them. What if they had something similar to an Adam and Eve and a fall. What if they had a sort of gospel that lead them to Jesus Christ. Something much simpler than the law of Moses or anything we have for us.

LDS believe that everything was made spiritually be God before it was created physically. We beleiev that God created our spirits and we lived as spirits in he presence before being born here on the Earth. We also believe that our spirits are eternal and never had a beginning and will never have an end. Most LDS believe that we existed as something called 'intelligence' before God organized our spirits as his children. This is important to know before reading the rest.

sola'lor said:
We know that where much is given much is required. During the time when everything was intellgences those of us who became humans were the most intelligent and were given more responsibilities and the ability to be exhalted and become like God. Those lesser intelligences became animals, plants, etc. So what if there were intellegences greater than animals but less than man. They became proto-man.

So basically my theory(with out all the LDS stuff) is that there was something going on prior to Adam and Eve that allowed for the Death of those creatures. It's not mentioned in the Bible because it isn't relevent to our salvation for us to know.
That's what I've come up with to reconcile the difference. Also before I had believed that the Neanderthals were the result of the curse of Cain. But with my new theory it puts the Neanderthals back where scientists have placed them.
 

rheff78

I'm your huckleberry.
Tough call here. There are some who say that the dinosaurs never died. They just evolved. I am with Scott, I believe in a literal translation of of Adam and Eve. But there is conclusive evidence that dinosaurs existed. Don't know.
 

rheff78

I'm your huckleberry.
Is it too far out there to think that Adam and Eve existed AND the dinosaurs existed? After all, tehre's no EVIDENCE that Adam and Eve existed but we as christians believe they do (actually our evidence is humanity but that's a different topic). You can't deny the existence of dinosaurs.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Is it too far out there to think that Adam and Eve existed AND the dinosaurs existed?

Then wouldn't you find at least a few cases where you had a human fossil that was older than a dinosaur fossil? That's never happened... not even once.
 

Troublemane

Well-Known Member
Tough call here. There are some who say that the dinosaurs never died. They just evolved. I am with Scott, I believe in a literal translation of of Adam and Eve. But there is conclusive evidence that dinosaurs existed. Don't know.

That depends on your definition of "Adam" and "Eve":

Y-chromosomal Adam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mitochondrial Eve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to these studies, the most recent common ancestor of all modern humans may have lived as early as 3,000 years ago. So science does in fact back up the possibility of an actual (if not biblically literal) Adam and Eve, but also that there were humans before them. (so it supports evolutionary theory)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Y-chromosome "Adam" and mitochondrial "Eve" lived 90,000 years apart.

Also, they both only represent genetic "bottlenecks", not necessarily the first humans. If these hypotheses prove true, then this "Adam" and "Eve" are only the earliest ancestor of all human lineages that survived; they don't say anything about lineages that didn't survive.
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
Sola'lor posted something in a topic about dinosaurs that got me thinking.

If death didn't exist in the world before the fall, then why are their fossils of DEAD creatures all over the world, which pre-date humanity?

Here's a THEORY with an LDS perspective. Copied from another thread. (Just one possibility.)

Before the fall of Adam there was no death, so the dinosaurs had to either exist with Adam, or after him. I think they existed much later, even after the flood. During, and for a while after the flood, the earth was in geologic turmoil, with things happening much faster than usual. Like when we read about the continents moving, or at Christ's death, which are other examples of periods of geologic turmoil.

So did Noah then have the dinosaurs on his arc? Yes, but they were obviously not the size as we think of them. (I do have to sneak evolution in here a bit.) Evolution does exist within species. Humans today are larger than they were a few centuries ago. If conditions are favorable for a particular species, it will thrive and evolve larger. So possibly the conditions on the earth, immediately after the flood, favored the original dinosaur species so well that it thrived and rather quickly evolved to be quite huge.
But the earth was still in its rapid change-mode, conditions continued to change and eventually the dinosaurs died out. With such a large earth and so few people here (because of the flood) they could have well stayed out of each other's way.


Science says the earth is millions of years old. This is using a dating system that is based on assumptions. The assumption is that everything has always aged at the rate that it ages now. Or that those factors that the rate of aging is based on, are not always consistent.

Continents are moving now, but ever so slowly, I don't know the rate, inches, or less, per year? But we do know in the Bible that the continents once moved a great distance in one lifetime.
"And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided" (Gen 10:25)
Also in the Doctrine and Covenants 133:24 (non-LDS, please bear with me) "And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided."

So is it possible that at different times in the history of this earth, things happened at different rates and sometimes much more rapidly than today? If so, this would really throw the rate of aging totally out of whack. If continents can move and oceans formed in one lifetime, the measurements taken many centuries later might appear that it took millions of years.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Here's a THEORY with an LDS perspective. Copied from another thread. (Just one possibility.)

Before the fall of Adam there was no death, so the dinosaurs had to either exist with Adam, or after him. I think they existed much later, even after the flood. During, and for a while after the flood, the earth was in geologic turmoil, with things happening much faster than usual. Like when we read about the continents moving, or at Christ's death, which are other examples of periods of geologic turmoil.

So did Noah then have the dinosaurs on his arc? Yes, but they were obviously not the size as we think of them. (I do have to sneak evolution in here a bit.) Evolution does exist within species. Humans today are larger than they were a few centuries ago. If conditions are favorable for a particular species, it will thrive and evolve larger. So possibly the conditions on the earth, immediately after the flood, favored the original dinosaur species so well that it thrived and rather quickly evolved to be quite huge.
But the earth was still in its rapid change-mode, conditions continued to change and eventually the dinosaurs died out. With such a large earth and so few people here (because of the flood) they could have well stayed out of each other's way.
So... you accept that gradual change can occur, but don't believe it can lead to new species? How, then, do you explain ring species?

Ring species show exactly the same mechanisms that Creationists say can't exist, just spread over distance instead of time. Have a look at the example on the link I provided (sorry it's from Wikipedia, but it's the clearest explanation that I know of) of Larus gulls: starting in northern Europe with the Lesser Black-backed Gull, we have adjacent populations that can interbreed freely, somewhat like dog breeds - they look a bit different, but the two groups can mate and produce viable offspring, so they're the same species, by the conventional definition.

Now... look what happens when the chain comes back around again: by the time we get back to Britain, the variation from group to group has built up to the point where what you've ended up with (the Herring Gull) is so unlike what you started with (the Lesser Black-backed Gull), that they can't interbreed - they're no longer the same species.

When this process occurs over time instead of distance, you have the evolution that you claim doesn't happen.

Science says the earth is millions of years old. This is using a dating system that is based on assumptions. The assumption is that everything has always aged at the rate that it ages now. Or that those factors that the rate of aging is based on, are not always consistent.
You're starting from a false assumption. The age of the Earth has been established by many different methods, in widely different disciplines using different evidence, and they all agree.

Some of these methods do assume uniformity, but many do not. The ones that do assume uniformity do so for good reason - for example, if radioactive decay were to occur at different rates at different times for the same element, then this would contradict a huge body of evidence that has shown the opposite, as well as a large number of well-understood and well-supported scientific principles. Radiometric dating only assumes that decay is constant because it has been demonstrated that it actually is constant.

"And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided" (Gen 10:25)
Also in the Doctrine and Covenants 133:24 (non-LDS, please bear with me) "And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided."
Sounds like a reference to the Tower of Babel to me more than anything else. Why do you think it's referring to geological division and not cultural division?

So is it possible that at different times in the history of this earth, things happened at different rates and sometimes much more rapidly than today? If so, this would really throw the rate of aging totally out of whack. If continents can move and oceans formed in one lifetime, the measurements taken many centuries later might appear that it took millions of years.
No, it's not possible for things to happen as you describe. For one good example of this, consider geomagnetic reversal. There are other reasons, but I'm a bit of a geology geek so I'm going to go with this one. :D

Rocks have crystal structure. When molten lava forms and cools into solid rock, its crystals are aligned with the Earth's magnetic field... as it is at the time. This is undebatable; this effect can be replicated in the lab, it happens consistently and repeatably, and the mechanisms behind the phenomenon are well-understood.

Now... from time to time, the poles flip. North becomes south, and south becomes north (note: this doesn't mean that whole planet actually rotates, just that things change in the Earth's mantle, and when the process is complete, a compass that used to point north would point south instead). We know that this happens because of that crystal structure I talked about before - as we look at the geologic record, we see that every single igneous rock that's formed points to where north was when it was formed, and then they all switch back and forth together, regardless of where on the planet the rock is.

We also have a very good, continuous record of all these geomagnetic reversals thanks to sea floor spreading: the ocean floor is formed in a constant process where it wells up from mid-ocean spreading ridges, slides across the mantle, then is subducted beneath the continental plates. Every sea floor on the planet shows the same pattern of geomagnetic reversals in their crystal structure. These also agree with igneous rock formations on land (from volcanos, usually).

Because oceanic, i.e. sea floor, plates are constantly being created at the spreading ridges and then destroyed at the continental boundaries, oceanic plates are much younger than the Earth itself. Still, the oldest sections of sea floor have been dated at 160 million years old.

In the geological record of the sea floor, we can see approximately 200 geomagnetic reversals. If this happens over 160 million years, this poses no problems - they'd happen every 800,000 years on average (though the time between reversals can vary widely - have a look at this graph - every black/white switch is a geomagnetic reversal). Our best estimate is that it's been about 50,000 years since the last one - long enough ago that it would have happened before any human had a compass, so it would have passed unnoticed.

Now... you want to compress the geologic history of the Earth into a much shorter time. This would mean that most of those geomagnetic reversals would have happened since human civilization began, and many of them since the development of the compass.

In all recorded human history, how many instances have there been of every single compass suddenly pointing in the opposite direction?
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
Science says the earth is millions of years old. This is using a dating system that is based on assumptions. The assumption is that everything has always aged at the rate that it ages now. Or that those factors that the rate of aging is based on, are not always consistent

I like this theory of aging. I've had similar thoughts in the past. Certainly God can cause the earth to age at any pace He desires. With the wave of His hand, the earth could go through billions of years of geologic change in a few minutes. The evidence left behind for science to study would all indicate billions of years.
 

Timmay

New Member
I like this theory of aging. I've had similar thoughts in the past. Certainly God can cause the earth to age at any pace He desires. With the wave of His hand, the earth could go through billions of years of geologic change in a few minutes. The evidence left behind for science to study would all indicate billions of years.

Nice answer.The nice thing about citing god as an authority is that you can prove anything you set out to prove.
 

Phasmid

Mr Invisible
I like this theory of aging. I've had similar thoughts in the past. Certainly God can cause the earth to age at any pace He desires. With the wave of His hand, the earth could go through billions of years of geologic change in a few minutes. The evidence left behind for science to study would all indicate billions of years.

Yes... He could do that... but why on Earth would He? What sense does it make to give the Universe the appearence of being billions of years old, while really it's only a few thousand? It would serve nothing other than to make people turn AWAY from God...
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I like this theory of aging. I've had similar thoughts in the past. Certainly God can cause the earth to age at any pace He desires. With the wave of His hand, the earth could go through billions of years of geologic change in a few minutes. The evidence left behind for science to study would all indicate billions of years.
:banghead3 Arrgh.

Someone already beat you to this idea:

What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this.

Source: Open Letter To Kansas School Board at Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

I suppose there's nothing to stop you from assuming that God could fabricate evidence for what didn't actually happen, but if you go this route, you'll be the one to have to figure out how to work a deceitful God who lies to His creation into your theology.
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
Yes... He could do that... but why on Earth would He? What sense does it make to give the Universe the appearence of being billions of years old, while really it's only a few thousand? It would serve nothing other than to make people turn AWAY from God...

Well, maybe if you believe the flood was real, which I do, God would cause some very rapid geologic changes to make it all happen and then to make the earth inhabitable again. I doubt he was concerned about how old the earth would appear because of it.
 

Phasmid

Mr Invisible
Well, maybe if you believe the flood was real, which I do, God would cause some very rapid geologic changes to make it all happen and then to make the earth inhabitable again. I doubt he was concerned about how old the earth would appear because of it.

But why? A few million years is but the blink of an eye to God. Don't tell me He got bored?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Well, maybe if you believe the flood was real, which I do, God would cause some very rapid geologic changes to make it all happen and then to make the earth inhabitable again. I doubt he was concerned about how old the earth would appear because of it.
How does bringing all the continents together into one, then breaking them up, sliding them apart, and then repeating the process several times make the Earth any more inhabitable than it was initially?
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
How does bringing all the continents together into one, then breaking them up, sliding them apart, and then repeating the process several times make the Earth any more inhabitable than it was initially?

The flood could have been caused by the rapid movement of continents and huge tital waves, in addition to rain. Then after the flood, the change from wet, swampy conditions to more like we have today (more inhabitable), could have transpired at a pace more rapidly than what we experience now. Just a theory. I mean we're talking about a world that we assume God created, because of the earlier question on death & dinosaurs. So surely a God who created a world, can move continents.
 
Top