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Gun Control

PureX

Veteran Member
Interesting, is it not, that you have presented nothing but your opinion to support your opinion.

Not once in this entire thread have you presented something other than your opinion, even when flat out asked to present.

Now you want to try a straw man.
The Chicago Tribune does not cover every single fire arm incident in Chicago, let alone the rest of the USA.

Here you are taking the little bit you know on the subject, which is based upon incomplete information on a small section of the USA and attempting to apply it to the whole USA.
And you do not see any problem with that?
First of all, the whole point of this thread was to offer our OPINIONS.

And secondly, no one on Earth knows every incident involving guns in Chicago. Yet I would trust the stories in the Chicago Tribune involving guns, and the lessons they teach, before I would trust the "statistics" being presented by the NRA. The Tribune is not promoting any agenda regarding guns, they're just reporting on what happened. It's true that they don't report suicides, because they don't consider them particularly newsworthy, and they don't want to encourage it as an idea. But I don't really see that the incidents of suicide changes anything. The problem remains the same: unstable humans combined with easy access to deadly weapons, in a culture that promotes maximum violent response to problems between human beings.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
You are taking the little bit you know on the subject, which is based upon incomplete information on a small section of the USA, and attempting to apply it to the whole USA.
And you do not see any problem with that?
 

mingmty

Scientist
Homicidal idiots are a reason for gun ownership not more gun laws.

I know I have criticized you in the past, but after reading more comments by you I have come to the conclusion that maybe I was too harsh. Unjustifiably harsh. You seem to have a well informed opinion and your comments are quite insightful even if sometimes I don't agree with your point of view.

In this topic I completely agree with you; sadly guns are going to be illegally traded and the wrong people will know the wrong moves to screw us up, the honest working people, it doesn't matter what is lawfully allowed, always there is going to be people like this around. The least you can do is to learn enough to protect yourself and your loved ones.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Interesting how this 'hail of bullets' theory of yours is only in works of FICTION.
When was the last time congress used it?
This Iraq war. Even our government sees maximum violent response as the only means of dealing with our problems with other nations. And Bush is now threatening Iran with violence.
Interestingly enough, you are also implying that people cannot tell the difference between real life and fiction.
Some can and some can't. In the United States, there are a lot of people who can't. And I propose that we begin trying to keep guns away from those people.
Yet the real world does not have 'bad guys gunned down in a hail of bullets' on every street corner.
Visit Chicago in June or September. There are several areas of the city where you could easily see people killed in a hail of gunfire. Or Philadelphia. I hear they're having a real problem with it these days.

And how many gun deaths a day are acceptable to you? How many shopping malls and schools is it OK to shoot up per year? How many drunken and drugged up arguments should be able to end in someone's death, so that YOU can have all the guns you want, without any legal oversight?
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
First of all, the whole point of this thread was to offer our OPINIONS.
And I was fine with that until you made the false accusation that I have not presented any rebuttals.
I have presented confirmed facts to support my opinion.

And secondly, no one on Earth knows every incident involving guns in Chicago.
The Chicago paper does not even report all the KNOWN gun incidents in Chicago.
So your statement actually hurts your case.

Yet I would trust the stories in the Chicago Tribune involving guns, and the lessons they teach, before I would trust the "statistics" being presented by the NRA.
And post #102 is from a gun control website.
Is that why you are completely ignoring it?


The Tribune is not promoting any agenda regarding guns, they're just reporting on what happened. It's true that they don't report suicides, because they don't consider them particularly newsworthy, and they don't want to encourage it as an idea. But I don't really see that the incidents of suicide changes anything. The problem remains the same: unstable humans combined with easy access to deadly weapons, in a culture that promotes maximum violent response to problems between human beings.
You can lead a horse to water...
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You are taking the little bit you know on the subject, which is based upon incomplete information on a small section of the USA, and attempting to apply it to the whole USA.
And you do not see any problem with that?
What part of this is untrue in any part of this country?

"The problem remains the same: unstable humans combined with easy access to deadly weapons, in a culture that promotes maximum violent response to problems between human beings."
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
so that YOU can have all the guns you want, without any legal oversight?
Now you are flat out lying or you have not read the thread.
But then you have consistently ignored most of what has been presented in this thread that goes against your world view.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
What part of this is untrue in any part of this country?

"The problem remains the same: unstable humans combined with easy access to deadly weapons, in a culture that promotes maximum violent response to problems between human beings."
and still you avoid answering the question.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
What part of this is untrue in any part of this country?

"The problem remains the same:
sadly it will continue to no matter how many gun laws are put in place. Legislation will not correct this problem.
unstable humans combined with easy access to deadly weapons, in a culture that promotes maximum violent response to problems between human beings."

OK, this is a three component issue as you have just explained it.

Unstable humans. Who decides who is unstable? If you have spent any time in a mental institution your not going to be licensed to carry a hand gun. Same if you have a criminal record. The current laws on the books attempt to accomplish exactly what you seek and what we all want, to keep unstable people away from guns.

The problem is, we already have all these gun laws in place and they don't work. The solution is not more of the same old same old, that only takes the guns away from stable law abiding folks and allows only the outlaws to have guns.

More gun laws would embolden the outlaw. Now they know you don't have a gun in your home because it is illegal now. You may have never owned a gun in your life, but your home was safer because you just might have one.

Miami Florida became much safer after they issued the concealed carry permit. Street thugs did not attempt to hijack cars any more because some, not all, of the cars had guns in them now.

Your second point is easy access to guns. The only easy access I know of is in the black market. If you purchase a weapon legally, there is some red tape involved that will prevent criminals from walking away with a gun.

The last component you mentioned is maximum violence as a response. If I was alone outside my home and was confronted by criminals, if I could run away I certainly would. In your own home you have your whole family to think of. If you run away what becomes of them? I'm sorry, if you break into my home and threaten my family, maximum violence is the correct response and quite possibly a deterrent for future criminals to consider.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
sadly it will continue to no matter how many gun laws are put in place. Legislation will not correct this problem.

OK, this is a three component issue as you have just explained it.

Unstable humans. Who decides who is unstable? If you have spent any time in a mental institution your not going to be licensed to carry a hand gun. Same if you have a criminal record. The current laws on the books attempt to accomplish exactly what you seek and what we all want, to keep unstable people away from guns.

The problem is, we already have all these gun laws in place and they don't work. The solution is not more of the same old same old, that only takes the guns away from stable law abiding folks and allows only the outlaws to have guns.

More gun laws would embolden the outlaw. Now they know you don't have a gun in your home because it is illegal now. You may have never owned a gun in your life, but your home was safer because you just might have one.

Miami Florida became much safer after they issued the concealed carry permit. Street thugs did not attempt to hijack cars any more because some, not all, of the cars had guns in them now.

Your second point is easy access to guns. The only easy access I know of is in the black market. If you purchase a weapon legally, there is some red tape involved that will prevent criminals from walking away with a gun.

The last component you mentioned is maximum violence as a response. If I was alone outside my home and was confronted by criminals, if I could run away I certainly would. In your own home you have your whole family to think of. If you run away what becomes of them? I'm sorry, if you break into my home and threaten my family, maximum violence is the correct response and quite possibly a deterrent for future criminals to consider.
You keep insisting that; "The problem is, we already have all these gun laws in place and they don't work. The solution is not more of the same old same old, that only takes the guns away from stable law abiding folks and allows only the outlaws to have guns." But I AM NOT PROPOSING MORE OF THE SAME OLD GUN LAWS. I am proposing that we scrap the old laws all together because they are not working, and we start over. And what I am proposing as the foundation of this new start is A NEW GOAL. The problem with the old gun laws is that they don't address the real issue, or they address it inconsistently, and ineffectively, because they weren't put in place as part of a single comprehensive program of deadly weapons control.

To get it right, we first have to face the real problem, directly. And the real problem is NOT THAT PEOPLE OWN GUNS. The problem is that irresponsible people are able to get guns and/or own guns, both legally and illegally. And as a result, they misuse them, and kill people: themselves, others, and both. So the solution is not to stop responsible people from buying and owning or even carrying guns. The solution is to stop irresponsible people from being able to do so. And although this will never be 100% achievable, it IS the proper goal of weapons control. and it is worth implementing, because even though we can't stop everyone who should not have a deadly weapon from getting one, we can stop a lot of people who should not have them from getting them.

You keep insisting that the laws, even reasonable and proper laws, can't possibly work. And this is simply wrong. They can't work perfectly, but no law can work perfectly. That doesn't negate the value or effectiveness of having laws, however. Most people do follow them most of the time. And that makes the difference.

You also keep assuming that I'm proposing that we take guns away from responsible citizens, and I AM NOT proposing that. I'm merely proposing that responsible citizens learn how and when to use deadly force, just like a cop has to do, and then be tested and certified, just as any cop has to be, that they do in fact know when and how to use a deadly weapon. And this process wouldn't need to be as advanced for sporting guns. Just as your driver's license now has codes to allow you to drive larger and commercial vehicles after a specific course and test, or not to, so would your gun license. But what I am also proposing is that just as with a police officer, this license is under constant scrutiny. If you get a DUI, for example, you have PROVEN that you are irresponsible with potentially deadly machinery and therefor pose an unacceptable threat to the public's safety. And as a result, you don't just lose your license to drive a car, but you also lose your license to own a gun. You will either turn it in, along with the license, or sign it over to a friend who is properly licensed to own guns. If you do not do so, or you keep a gun in your possession, anyway, and you are caught with it, you will face very stiff fines and penalties, and you will be charged with a felony, and will lose the right to possess a gun forever. This would also apply to any drug conviction and to any other kind of felony conviction.

If you manage to behave responsibly say, for the next three years after the DUI, then you can retest, and if you pass, have your gun license reinstated.

This testing, by the way, should involve psychological testing, just as it does with the police. Over the years, the police academies have discovered that they attract certain kinds of unstable people who should never be given authority over other people, and should especially never be given the right to carry or use deadly weapons. And they've gotten pretty good at spotting these people and weeding them out. And this is exactly the kind of process we need to employ with anyone who wants to get a gun license. It's not fool-proof, but it does work most of the time.

The truth is that these unstable people are usually pretty easy to spot. And when we read about many of the people who end up killing other people in fits of drunken rage, or high on drugs, or who have been stalking and or violent, etc., it almost always turns out that lots of other people knew they were having problems, they just didn't tell anyone about them. A hands on course in use and testing for a gun license would give people who are trained to spot such problems in others the time and opportunity to do so. And I am certain it would weed out a fair number of people who we would not want to have access to deadly weapons. It's working fairly well for the police, and it could easily be expanded.

I want people who want to own hand guns for self and other protection to be able to do so. But I want them to do it right, and to be highly trained, like cops, when they pull that weapon out. And I also want them to know how to treat a deadly weapon when it's not being used, or carried, the same way a cop has to take special precautions and responsibility for his weapon when off duty.

And I believe that the result of this kind of weapons oversight, and certification, would not only weed out many of those irresponsible people who want to own guns, but shouldn't, it would raise the level of awareness and care that the responsible citizens will give to the heady responsibility of gun ownership.

And the result would be that guns would be much harder for ANYONE to get, but especially for drunks, dope heads, hot heads, stalkers, and otherwise emotionally unstable people. If they are really determined, they will probably find a way to get one, but when someone is really determined to kill someone else, it's difficult to stop them. This is rare, however. Most killings are not that pre-meditated, and are not carried out by people that are all that clever and persistent. And so most of these people would find it a lot more difficult to get hold of a gun than it currently is.

Guns would be sold on the 'black market', but they would become more and more expensive as the availability of guns tightened. Joe Twelvepack, who can now very easily obtain a gun for $50 will find that he doesn't have the $500 being demanded on the black market. And as a result, then next time he gets drunk and in a fight with someone at the local pub, he wouldn't have a pistol handy to go staggering back into the bar with to 'get even'. Or when Mr. Brokenheart takes it into his drug induced delusional mind to kill his "girlfriend" because she didn't realize that she WAS his girlfriend, and so went out with someone else, he won't have a gun just lying around to grab and chase her down with. Nor will he find anyone else's gun just lying around, either. The point is that guns will be tougher to get, black market or not. They'll be more expensive, and they'll be better guarded by those who own them. And that will save a lot of lives.
 

yossarian22

Resident Schizophrenic
My arguments are based on what I know, and common sense. And so far, I have not seen you come up with any great rebuttals. If you think the Chicago Tribune was lying about all those incidents involving guns, then there isn't much point in this discussion.

Its anecdotal evidence. News agency do not report the ordinary. The report (and sensationalize) the extraordinary. As such, it is the worst thing to base public policy on. And you have entirely ignored the rebuttals and have failed to show that the expenditure of money is justified. All you have shown are a few select psychopaths who stick out. Basing a policy from the actions of a few individual outliers is ridiculous and ,quite frankly, stupid.
 

rojse

RF Addict
Why doesn't someone find the statistics for homicides by firearms in the US, and find them for a bunch of other countries that do not have firearms, such as Australia, and so forth? Then we can compare, and then try to make more definitive statements.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
People will always arm themselves with some form of weapon.
Banning guns will only put law abiding citizens at a big disadvantage since guns will still be available on the black market. And a gun will usually beat out most other conventional weapons.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
People will always arm themselves with some form of weapon.
Banning guns will only put law abiding citizens at a big disadvantage since guns will still be available on the black market. And a gun will usually beat out most other conventional weapons.
I disagee. People here don't own guns, the police aren't armed, some criminals do have guns. We live without the level of fear it appears there is in the USA and we are not at a disadvantage because we aren't armed. I would rather live in a generally unarmed society than a generally armed one.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Why doesn't someone find the statistics for homicides by firearms in the US, and find them for a bunch of other countries that do not have firearms, such as Australia, and so forth? Then we can compare, and then try to make more definitive statements.
Murder rate in Ireland in 2004 per 100,000 was 0.91 the figure for the US was 5.9
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Gee, that is about as arrogant as me bragging about steaks on the grill.

People in New Orleans got the busy signal.
People in L.A. during the riots got a busy signal.
After several hurricanes I experienced, I could not even get a dial tone or a cell phone to connect.

My point is, when crap hits the fan, the police cannot answer every ones call.

I would much rather let the professionals do their job, but some times that is not an option.

Let's talk about all these unstable people. I get mad as hell when some one cuts me off in traffic. I have never even once thought about doing something about it.

We all have been done wrong by someone, employers, lovers, family, what ever. How that equates to law abiding people is beyond me.

Homicidal idiots are a reason for gun ownership not more gun laws.

You live in a country that has never been invaded, you have great wealth and freedom and you live in fear? I don't get it.
 

Aasimar

Atheist
You live in a country that has never been invaded, you have great wealth and freedom and you live in fear? I don't get it.

We have been invaded, by England, and by Japan (See Pearl Harbor.) We just won (with great help from the French in the case of England, by our damn selves in the case of Japan.)

I wouldn't say I live in fear though.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
We have been invaded, by England, and by Japan (See Pearl Harbor.) We just won (with great help from the French in the case of England, by our damn selves in the case of Japan.)

I wouldn't say I live in fear though.

You expelled the British and gained independence from them, you weren't invaded by them. Japan mounted an air-attack on Pearl Harbour, they didn't invade.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
You live in a country that has never been invaded, you have great wealth and freedom and you live in fear? I don't get it.
It has been invaded. And also, not everyone lives in fear.
The facts are, guns on the black market are widely available, and usually they are smuggled in from another nation.
It would be a criminals dream world, if they could go from house to house, business to business, without the fear of the owners having a gun. For them, it would be the next best thing since "security" flood lights.
 
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