Why the Confederacy should not be "honored"

[leibowde84]

It's interesting that the British used the same tactics of freeing slaves to fight against the Northern colonies.

"But the heaviest blow was dealt by the war itself, which was waged for five years all across the North. Both sides competed for the slaves, and whichever side he joined, a slave was likely to end up free. The incentives were greater on the British side, however, since the running away of an American's slave meant no financial loss to them. In Connecticut, as early as 1776, slaves were escaping to British vessels lying off New Haven. In 1775, at the outbreak of the Revolution, Virginia's Gov. John Murray, Earl of Dunmore, issued a proclamation offering freedom to all slaves who would bear arms against the rebellion. Among the many who ran away from their masters and flocked to Lord Dunmore's regiments was Titus, 21, slave of New Jersey Quaker John Corlies. A year later, calling himself Colonel Tye, Titus was back in New Jersey, organizing other slaves and free blacks to fight against the Americans. For five years he led a guerilla band that terrorized northern New Jersey."

Why did the North free their slaves. Not so much humanitarian reasons. Except for a few religious groups like the Quakers.

"Quakers came later to abolition than many people realize. Not until 1758 did Philadelphia Yearly Meeting condemn not only the slave trade, but slavery itself. Still, the Society of Friends was the most visible of the anti-slavery sects, though somewhat marginalized during the Revolution because many Friends had been Loyalists. They brought varying degrees of pressure to bear in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, and Rhode Island. Presbyterians in Pennsylvania and Methodists in the Chesapeake region also preached against slavery."

Northern Emancipation

The reasoning is not important to me. It is the fact that the North did end slavery and demanded that the South do the same.

 

[LuisDantas]

Here in Brazil there is a sizeable, historical resentment of the British for "pressuring us into abolitionism out of economic interest".

I suppose that is true far as truth goes...

 

[Nakosis]

The reasoning is not important to me. It is the fact that the North did end slavery and demanded that the South do the same.

Reasoning, motivation, the assumption of higher moral ground is always interesting to me. Why folks do what they do.

 

[LuisDantas]

Reasoning, motivation, the assumption of higher moral ground is always interesting to me. Why folks do what they do.

Because they need justification, questionable as it is, for empowering themselves to decide the fates of many other people, it seems to me.

 

[leibowde84]

Reasoning, motivation, the assumption of higher moral ground is always interesting to me. Why folks do what they do.

I agree. It is interesting, but irrelevant to the flag issue. The reason that black people equate the flag with slavery is because the Confederacy refused to end slavery under it. Also, the designer of the flag explicitly said that he intended the flag to represent the racial superiority of whites.

 

[dust1n]

The effect? To limit the South's ability to wage war and succeed from the Union. I don't think we should romanticize the motivations of Lincoln either.

How about the US treatment of Native Americans? Those people who display the American flag, are showing support for the treatment of Native Americans at the hands of the Europeans?

Seems to me we romanticized the conquest of America. People criticize one banner but not the other. That's what folks do isn't it? Romanticized the history of whatever group they choose to identify with?

Anyone who has even vaguely known me on RF knows I've never had a problem criticizing America on basically any topic. I routinely bash pre-WWI America, and WWI til WW2 America.

I mean they're countries after all, every single one of them has engaged in some egregious act at some point in time.

 

[Nakosis]

I agree. It is interesting, but irrelevant to the flag issue. The reason that black people equate the flag with slavery is because the Confederacy refused to end slavery under it. Also, the designer of the flag explicitly said that he intended the flag to represent the racial superiority of whites.

Why this black defender of the Confederate flag says slavery was ‘a choice’ - The Washington Post

 

[leibowde84]

Why this black defender of the Confederate flag says slavery was ‘a choice’ - The Washington Post

Why is this relevant. I didn't mean every single black person without exception. That would be ridiculous.

 

[Nakosis]

Why is this relevant. I didn't mean every single black person without exception. That would be ridiculous.

I didn't think you did. However I think her view is interesting. The issue is not just black and white, it's more complicated.

 

[Curious George]

A quick Google search will yield countless results that deal with the American Civil war. However, make sure to weed out Pro-X websites that are one sided. AmericanHistory.net, CivilWar.org, PBS, etc. are good places to start. You will get multiple links from within those sites that will go into detail about particular aspects leading up to the war. As far as white supremacy goes, that was not even an issue at the time. If anything it was federal government vs. states.

You are implying I should do my own research, and I certainly will before I form an opinion on the matter, but you are also implying you do not have any sources.

 

[leibowde84]

I didn't think you did. However I think her view is interesting. The issue is not just black and white, it's more complicated.

I agree. I just haven't heard sufficient reasoning to keep the flag in state owned property. The mere fact that it is treasonous should be enough.

 

[Curious George]

Let me ask you, do you have any preconceived notion of the Southern mindset or life style? Please be honest, this is not a test.

I think that southerners in general seem to have more of a regard for niceties. I think that southerners place more emphasis on family status and heritage than northerners, I think that southerners appreciate comfort food, I think that southerners tend towards religion, though I know it is not true I think all southerners like to fish and drink sweet tea.

 

[BSM1]

By definition, a civil war just means it's a war between citizens of the same country.

With the intent of replacing the government in power. This was not the case in the War Between the States. The Confederacy was seceding from the Union to become a separate country.

 

[BSM1]

The only "preconceived notion" that I have of the South is that people are generally more friendly, relaxed, easy-going, and fun/funny. There is great music, and a love for this country that is on a different level than many other parts of the country. Beyond that, I have met too many different kinds of people that come from the south to put any other labels on them. Like anywhere else, there are great people and there are terrible people ... in roughly the same proportion I would assume. I live in Maryland, and there is a great deal of southern pride even here (I live outside DC, so there are a lot of "transplants" here from various places in the south).

This is my honest opinion. Cross my heart.

I think that southerners in general seem to have more of a regard for niceties. I think that southerners place more emphasis on family status and heritage than northerners, I think that southerners appreciate comfort food, I think that southerners tend towards religion, though I know it is not true I think all southerners like to fish and drink sweet tea.

Complete stereotypes.

 

[leibowde84]

With the intent of replacing the government in power. This was not the case in the War Between the States. The Confederacy was seceding from the Union to become a separate country.

This is not true. It is just a war between groups in the same sovereign country. Civil war | Define Civil war at Dictionary.com

 

[leibowde84]

Complete stereotypes.

How so? I have merely based these opinions on my own personal experiences in the south.

 

[Nakosis]

I agree. I just haven't heard sufficient reasoning to keep the flag in state owned property. The mere fact that it is treasonous should be enough.

Hatred of the Confederate flag is causing civil problems, so one former defender is agreeing to it's removal.

"But my perspective has changed. In her speech this week calling for state legislators to remove the flag from the statehouse grounds, Gov. Nikki Haley spoke of unity. She equally acknowledged the pain and the pride that the flag holds for South Carolinians. She noted how debate over the flag was hurting the state’s soul. “We are not going to allow this symbol to divide us any longer,” she said. “The fact that it causes pain to so many is enough to move it from the capitol grounds.”
I am a black South Carolinian. Here’s why I support the Confederate flag. - The Washington Post

 

[leibowde84]

Hatred of the Confederate flag is causing civil problems, so one former defender is agreeing to it's removal.

"But my perspective has changed. In her speech this week calling for state legislators to remove the flag from the statehouse grounds, Gov. Nikki Haley spoke of unity. She equally acknowledged the pain and the pride that the flag holds for South Carolinians. She noted how debate over the flag was hurting the state’s soul. “We are not going to allow this symbol to divide us any longer,” she said. “The fact that it causes pain to so many is enough to move it from the capitol grounds.”
I am a black South Carolinian. Here’s why I support the Confederate flag. - The Washington Post

Sound reasoning.

 

[dust1n]

Why this black defender of the Confederate flag says slavery was ‘a choice’ - The Washington Post

With the intent of replacing the government in power.

Not by definition, which is what you stated. A civil war is war between parties of the same country, regardless the external conditions or reasoning, by definition.

This was not the case in the War Between the States. The Confederacy was seceding from the Union to become a separate country.

Yea. This is known.

 

[Curious George]

Complete stereotypes.

Yes and your point? You asked I answered truthfully. I also think Irish love potatoes, whiskey, and the sound of a fiddle.

You do realize you were asking for stereotypes right? Lol