Where Was God...

[Neo Deist]

Question: will the Jews (not believing in Jesus) who got burned in the holocaust go to heaven...

No one goes to heaven!

 

[InChrist]

Quoting the KJV, which is the only English translation that erroneously uses Lucifer in that verse, won't win you any debates. It has long been established that the entire chapter of Isaiah 14 has to do with a fallen Babylonian king. It has absolutely nothing to do with Satan. Go read the entire chapter...

There may be different opinions on the translation of the Hebrew word helel and whether it should be "Lucifer', "morning star", or "son of the dawn", but these are all applied to Satan in the scriptures. So I do not consider it an erroneous translation at all, nor do I think the entire chapter is about a Babylonian king. Often passages in the scriptures have double application and I believe that while much of Isaiah ch. 14 does apply to such a king there is definite reference to Satan that cannot be applied to a human king.
Verse 12 states,
How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
This description of a son of the morning falling from heaven cannot apply to a human king already on the earth. Only an angelic being could fall from heaven as Jesus states in Luke 10:18, "I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven". Similar to this, is the passage in Ezekiel 28 which is spoken in reference to the king of Tyre, yet some aspects cannot be applied to a human king and are in reference to Satan, such as ...you were in Eden, the garden of God, you were the anointed cherub, you were on the holy mountain of God, you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
Both passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel reveal the the sinful pride of Satan and the desire he has to usurp God's position..." I will be like the Most High". This is the same rebellion against God's will he encouraged humankind in from the beginning (Genesis 3:5) and continues to this day.

I think the passage in Isaiah along with the one in Ezekiel have double reference to human kings and Satan because these kings displayed the same sin of pride and rebellious attitude as Satan. Yet some of the details in these passages clearly only apply to the fallen angelic being known as Satan, highlighting his willful rebellion against God the Creator.

 

[InChrist]

I totally hear you. I beleive Satan does exist.

I want to explore this idea with you because it is something I wonder about. (Although, it's kind of like staring at road kill.) But every once in a while we could study a dead body to learn something I guess...

So that said. If we serve ourselves and it was purely out of our own selfish desires, and there was no fallen spirit present, then would it make sense that we aren't serving God or Satan at that point. Inderectly, Satan would be happy to hear about it, but we weren't actually serving him.

Does that make sense? It is my perspective this far in life. I think I beleive this because it allows us to speak in a way that doesn't balloon the limited traits of that fallen angel named The Devil.

God us so cool, by the way! Love Him, love Him , love Him. Keeping eyes on the skies

Thanks for your thoughts. I'd say I agree with the idea that we, ourselves can certainly serve SELF and therefore be out of God's will without any assistance from Satan.
I'm not sure what you mean by referring to Satan as a dead body, though. I do believe his ability is limited, nevertheless I don't doubt he is alive and very active seeking whom he may devour.
Yet, my eyes, too, are upon the Lord, Creator of heaven and earth who is full of power and love and there is no fear in His incredible, boundless love.

 

[Neo Deist]

There may be different opinions on the translation of the Hebrew word helel and whether it should be "Lucifer', "morning star", or "son of the dawn", but these are all applied to Satan in the scriptures.

No, they really aren't.

...nor do I think the entire chapter is about a Babylonian king.

Reading comprehension skills are a must.

Isaiah is mocking the fallen Babylonian king. Babylon...you know, the Persian Empire...persecuted the Hebrews. They hated the Persians with a passion. The Persians kings thought themselves as gods (much like Egyptian pharaohs) and when that particular king died, many Hebrews celebrated. Isaiah 14 is poetic and is most definitely about that king's fall (death), whether you agree with it or not.

 

[Etritonakin]

What your saying is just you continuing to dance around the question I posed a bit ago.
Does allowing terrible suffering occur to innocent people justified if they will be alright eventually?

Your bible verses really don't affect the question being asked, you continue to dance around the questions without giving a concrete answer.
Just because eventually the child will eventually be "saved" that still does little to justify the suffering god lets exist.

Now, i'l answer your questions instead of dancing around them.

Rather than helping after the fact, what could have changed in the entire history of man to avoid all such situations?
You need to revise this question, I don't understand what your trying to ask. If you are asking if its worth rewriting history to avoid suffering I think the moral answer would be yes, for sure.
Why are there accidents?
Because humans aren't perfect and your god refuses to step in and help
What needs to change in order to avoid all accidents in the future?
God, but he won't.

Revision of history to avoid suffering.....

Do not make man -or make something that looks like man, but is incapable of independent thought or creativity.

Do not allow man to become God-like by mastering fears and horrors. Do not give them the universe after you are certain they will not let the entire universe fall to horrors.

Do not make any other perfect beings, because it would require extreme experiences.
Do not allow man to master reality by creating it and experiencing it.

Just lost a lot of data -but that about sums it up.

 

[InChrist]

No, they really aren't.



Reading comprehension skills are a must.

Isaiah is mocking the fallen Babylonian king. Babylon...you know, the Persian Empire...persecuted the Hebrews. They hated the Persians with a passion. The Persians kings thought themselves as gods (much like Egyptian pharaohs) and when that particular king died, many Hebrews celebrated. Isaiah 14 is poetic and is most definitely about that king's fall (death), whether you agree with it or not.

I do not deny that Isaiah is speaking of the fall of the Babylonian king, yet I cannot agree with your view that the fall of Lucifer/Satan is not also portrayed in the passage. But back to your original point, I do agree with you that the bad things we see happening in the world is because God is allowing humans to exercise freewill.

 

[Etritonakin]

God did not make that.

We have all sorts of wonderful excuses for making those.

It would be pointless for God to simply keep taking them away. What needs to be taken away is our will to make those -and all other horrors we create.

That will be taken away by all individual and collective experiences.

WE need to learn to not destroy these -then God will give us the power to make them.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:

 

[Neo Deist]

I do not deny that Isaiah is speaking of the fall of the Babylonian king, yet I cannot agree with your view that the fall of Lucifer/Satan is not also portrayed in the passage. But back to your original point, I do agree with you that the bad things we see happening in the world is because God is allowing humans to exercise freewill.

You are entitled to your opinion...just understand that you are in the minority as most scholars on the issue of Isaiah 14:12 agree with what I am saying. That is the reason every modern English translation has removed the erroneously used "lucifer" from that verse. Incidentally that is the only place that "lucifer" appears in English. You can blame the 4th century monk, Jerome, for screwing it up in the Latin Vulgate, and later the 47 scholars who translated the 1611 KJV (all of whom were members of the CoE) for copying it.

Why would Isaiah talk about a fallen king for 11 verses, jump to Satan for one verse, and then back to the fallen king for the remainder of the chapter? That does not make any sense, especially considering that the Hebrews/Jews do not have a "Satan as the devil" concept in their religion.

Not to mention that Satan is a Hebrew term that means adversary, and should be properly translated as such. Yeshua is translated from the Hebrew into Jesus in English...why not ha-satan? It is not a name, it is a title.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Basically every time God tried to help people ( Adam and Eve, the Hebrew people in the dessert, etc.) they told Him they did not want to follow His rules in order to get His help. God decided to let humans run things their way to prove that they were not able to do it on their own. Now God is waiting until conditions are so bad that all mankind will be wiped out before He steps in to save them and show that only His way will result in peace and prosperity. Man's way will only result in war and hatred.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

every time God tried to tell people how to live properly, they told Him to "get lost" so He stopped trying to help. It is not God making people suffer but people who do not want to follow His rules for a successful life

 

[Etritonakin]

Your starting to caps over some logical questions I asked, seems like i've struck a nerve. The capslock and underline spam is generally a sign of the actual argument deteriorating and a shouting fight starting to form.

"Q: Does allowing terrible suffering occur to innocent people justified if they will be alright eventually?
A: YES -because it is a necessary part of the process of making them alright -and the present suffering will become a non-issue.
There will be a point at which will not even be remembered."

I think most people in this thread would disagree, I see no logical reason why suffering is a "necessary" part of making them alright. Just because something isn't remembered afterwards, doesn't mean it isn't significant. Everyone forgets eventually. You need a further explanation then "its necessary."

"Effectively..... God has ALREADY made every last dead and living child's eternal future wonderful -BY ALLOWING THIS TEMPORARY SITUATION WHICH DOES INCLUDES HORRIFIC SUFFERING. "
See my first question, this doesn't change anything. Your god is capable of making a wonderful future without having to allow this ****ty horrific reality.

You literally just babbled on about your opinions in caps without giving any reasoning for your beliefs besides bible verses. Bible verses do not change anything in logical debate when your god is omnipotent.

Once again, I ask,
Why has your god neglected suffering? The fact that everything will be okay in the end does not make standing by traumatic experiences that you could stop.

Hypothetically, If you saw a little boy or girl getting raped by an adult, would you just stand by, because their life will be better eventually or because in the future they won't even remember that experience? Thats ****ed up.

That is not the case -your arguments are all over the shop -and you make many assumptions about the bible and my beliefs which are not true.

Text is often unclear (even in the bible). I use caps and underline things to add emphasis -I was not shouting, I was enthusiastic.

I feel things very strongly (somewhere in my mind, at least -so touching a nerve would not be a bad thing, anyway.

I would simply love to be able to instantaneously cause people to understand what I understand -but I know it takes time.... and experience

"Your god is capable of making a wonderful future without having to allow this ****ty horrific reality."

Whether you believe it or not -that would have meant not creating us. God creates wonderful futures wonderfully. We do not.

Which God? The one you doubt? The one you believe in, but have anger toward? What?

So let's say no God exists -you still have to deal with this ****ty horrific reality.

If you believe there is no God -or reject an imperfect God you believe exists -what are you going to do about reality?

If no God exists, accept that WE MADE THIS ****TY HORRIFIC REALITY -AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT -and don't make it ****tier in the process.

If God exists -THE SAME THING IS TRUE -SO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Whether God exists or not, the world is about to get the ****tiest it has ever been. It should not be difficult to see that reality.

The rest you can consider after the fact, because reality happens regardless of what you believe.

If you don't like it, kick its *** -and don't be what you don't like.


FURTHERMORE......
Let's say God messed up before -let's say it was his FAULT (totally wasn't) rather than his responsibility -and realized it right now -what should he do right now?

How about taking over the government of the world? How about destroying those who destroy the Earth -you know -the types you would not miss? How about raising all of the dead? How about destroying our nasty, filthy cities with a fervent heat and rebuilding? How about making more natural resources available by rearranging the surface of the earth? Why not make snakes not bite and kill? Why not make lions eat straw like the ox? Why not end war forever?

All gonna happen -and you won't have to take my word for it. I just try to make people understand what is about to happen -because the end of it is awesome.

He could have done all of that without allowing all of the bad stuff WE DID -but he could not then have made the children of God. He could not have reproduced himself.
That required that we be allowed to make a completely ****ty mess of things and get really, really tired of it -it required that **** got as real as **** can get -because we have to master reality and quit this ****.

ONLY THEN CAN WE BE PERFECT.

(that was shouting, by the way)

 

[Etritonakin]

"That is not the case -your arguments are all over the shop -and you make many assumptions about the bible and my beliefs which are not true."
Not really, I made one argument, then gave reasons why your arguments didn't actually answer anything I was saying. I did not make assumptions about your beliefs, and I don't believe I made any assumptions about the bible. Please cite this.


"Your god is capable of making a wonderful future without having to allow this ****ty horrific reality."

Whether you believe it or not -that would have meant not creating us. God creates wonderful futures wonderfully. We do not.

Which God? The one you doubt? The one you believe in, but have anger toward? What?"

Assuming that god is omnipotent (as claimed in almost every major monotheistic religion) god did, and still does have the power to prevent the horrific ****ty reality we live in. There is literally no explanation why this ****ty earth life we live in is required. If god is truly omnipotent, then that means he still could have created us without this ****ty reality. This really doesn't answer the asked question at all.

Which god? Any of the Abrahamic ones. I don't believe in them, I just think if they do exist, and are as the holy books portray them, then they are immoral gods.


"So let's say no God exists -you still have to deal with this ****ty horrific reality.

If you believe there is no God -or reject an imperfect God you believe exists -what are you going to do about reality?

If no God exists, accept that WE MADE THIS ****TY HORRIFIC REALITY -AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT -and don't make it ****tier in the process.

If God exists -THE SAME THING IS TRUE -SO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT."'

If you read my text, I think you'll find I never claimed anywhere that we didn't also **** up our reality. Humans are ****ty creatures who have always been ****ty, if you recheck the analogy I made, I didn't claim that. However, god did create suffering, voluntarily. Although lets not get into that argument, seeing as were failing to understand each others posts as is.

Just because we "created" our currently reality, doesn't mean that its moral for god to standby and watch.
Hence the rape analogy again.

"Whether God exists or not, the world is about to get the ****tiest it has ever been. It should not be difficult to see that reality.

The rest you can consider after the fact, because reality happens regardless of what you believe.

If you don't like it, kick its *** -and don't be what you don't like."

I did not claim it wasn't or claim that things would improve over beliefs. This offers nothing to the discussion.

"FURTHERMORE......
Let's say God messed up before -let's say it was his FAULT (totally wasn't) rather than his responsibility -and realized it right now -what should he do right now?"

He created this world. He is both at fault and responsible for everything he created. He is all knowing, so therefore, he knew everything that would happen if he created us, and the suffering it would lead to. It is immoral to standby when you have omnipotence.

What should he do? Well, there are a lot of things.
-He could instantly make the earth Utopian, giving everyone the necessary requirements for life, preventing all suffering and removing the power from those in power.
-He could rewind time so this ****-hole planet never happened.
-He could merely blink us out of existence and take us to heaven or whatever.


"How about taking over the government of the world? How about destroying those who destroy the Earth -you know -the types you would not miss? How about raising all of the dead? How about destroying our nasty, filthy cities with a fervent heat and rebuilding? How about making more natural resources available by rearranging the surface of the earth? Why not make snakes not bite and kill? Why not make lions eat straw like the ox? Why not end war forever?"

Why not? Sounds good to me.

"All gonna happen -and you won't have to take my word for it. I just try to make people understand what is about to happen -because the end of it is awesome."

Its not just about the end though, its about the bumps in the road and the process of getting there. Really doesn't answer the question posed and doesn't change discussion.

"He could have done all of that without allowing all of the bad stuff WE DID -but he could not then have made the children of God. He could not have reproduced himself."

Why not? Isn't he omnipotent? Why does he need to have children of god anyways?

That required that we be allowed to make a completely ****ty mess of things and get really, really tired of it -it required that **** got as real as **** can get -because we have to master reality and quit this ****."

Why was it required though? You still haven't said why. You just say that it is, and continue to say so. Why?

Again, I pose the original question.
Is it moral to watch people suffer, with the power to fix it, and choose not to?

I don't think the answer matters wether or not it is a deity or human answering it.

lolololololol

I have not read your post -I am exhausted -worn out -after a day of much exertion -but your un-embiggening of my caps/underlines/italics, etc. is hilarious.

I will read it later, but meanwhile..... thought I'd say....

...any motivation I might have to shout is from an acknowledgment of horrors, knowledge of a completely possible and inevitable end-state, a desire to move every last person from this reality to that reality and impart to them the absolutely certain hope I have.
That reality is this reality set in order. This reality is that reality in disorder due to our decisions -and God's decision to let us decide.
Few would want to trade their life for mine (and many have seen worse than I) -but I have more real joy and anticipation for the future than most -and would not trade mine for any -except to let them see from this perspective.
It is not ignorant hope -it is vision and understanding.

I know the end will be worth all that has been -and all that will be -and I wish I could cause this to exist in the minds of others -because I know how valuable it will be in the immediate future.

It is not easy to conceive of a moral God bringing immorality into existence -but that is due to an incomplete understanding of morality.
God created a system which could be perfect -and immorality is making that system imperfect.
It was made imperfect by beings other than God, because God purposed to make those being perfect.

The only way to prevent immorality was to never give decision over to another.
That would keep a limited reality perfect.
It would also prevent the creation of many -perhaps a infinite number -of creators.

If you can say this reality is imperfect, you have at least a general idea of perfection -and you know it can exist.

God could fix everything -but his purpose was to bring you to a point where you could fix it -where you were a god.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Psa 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Psa 82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
Psa 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Psa 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

"My" God said that YOU could -under the right circumstances -do what you say God should do -so when you see someone in a horrible state -YOU make it better!

Mat_10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

You accuse God of not acting -but God essentially tells you to be a god and do it.

Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive

Why? Because God is not making simple and perfectly happy humans -he is making gods.

YOU DO IT!

 

[Etritonakin]

 

[morphesium]

I can't help but look back on events that have happened in the past 15 years and wonder "where was God?" The events that I cite are for example purposes only. In no way am I trying to cause someone pain, heart ache, or dishonoring the dead.

1. September 11, 2001: four planes are hijacked by terrorists. Two are crashed into the WTC, one hits the Pentagon and one goes down in a field. Thousands of people lost their lives, many of whom have nothing to do with what is going on in the Middle East. Where was God?

2. Afghanistan and Iraq (21st century): US forces travel in convoys and are under strict orders of "DO NOT STOP." If they do stop for civilians, those same civilians will try to run up to the convoy and steal food, water, supplies, etc. Parents would toss their young children on the road in front of the convoys, trying to make them stop...but the convoys couldn't. Imagine being the driver of that lead vehicle and having to run over a child because of a desperate parent. Where was God?

3. I have had numerous cases where a child (toddler) was beaten to death by an adult. Where was God?

4. I had a case where an ~80 year old widowed white woman had been married to her husband for 60+ years, had only been with him, and was a devout Christian. A ~20 year old black male broke into her house, beat the crap out of her and raped her. I can't imagine the psychological torment she experiences to this day. Where was God?

5. Refugees are fleeing Syria by the millions. On September 2, 2015, two boats carrying refugees capsized at sea. One of the deceased has been all over the news...it was a three year old little boy who drowned and his lifeless body washed up on a beach in Turkey. What possible purpose was there in that boy's death? Where was God?

6. ISIS is murdering people left and right in extremely grotesque manners. They are beheading people SLOWLY with knives, drowning people, burning people alive, blowing people's head's off with explosives, and having children (recruits) shoot adult prisoners in the back of the head. Where is God?



I use these examples to drive home a point...

There are those that believe that God controls everything. If that is the case, then you have to blame God for the above atrocities, every wicked act, evil, corruption and senseless death. What damn purpose does any of that stuff serve?

Before you answer, know that we have heard it all before:
"God works in mysterious ways"
"We can't know the mind of God"
"Everything happens for a reason"
"We don't see His plan or the bigger picture"
"Satan causes evil and suffering"

Every single one of those answers are nothing but a cop out because you can't logically answer those questions, when you put God in control of everything followed by the notion that He is a loving God. That is my biggest problem with religions/people that make that claim.

The same people will jump to the Satan excuse...that he is the one that causes those things. By that very statement they contradict the claim that God is in control of everything. Is Satan subject to God'a authority or not? Of course I don't believe in the invisible boogeyman called Satan, but I use him to illustrate that point.

The only logical explanation that I have been able to think of after 40 years, while maintaining my belief in God, is the belief in free will. If God were to intervene on any of those accounts, then it is no longer free will. With that gift comes great sacrifice, sorrow, pain, misery, hardship and loss of life.

All God(s) that we know are just man made. I believe that the world without religions is a better place to live in. Our morals are best in guiding us -it an reform law and other unethical practices that are occurring in the society and thus it can reform the society to even better one. The real reason why our (most of our) societies have banned slavery, child marriages etc.

Religion (mainly Islamic ) on the other hand ties oneself to those uncivilized times of prophet mohammed. Hard core believers support slavery , stoning to death and all other unethical practices.

If there is God, there is a great chance that whom the believers call god is just evil in God's disguise, because their religion tries to deprive of their morals (something god embedded into us).

 

[Etritonakin]

....and just because it's a match doesn't mean it's not true. Don't get confused.

 

[steve_vk]

What I believe is everyone has a free will. Due to being astray from Lord, some misguided souls use it against other. And wonder not by whom they are misguided and controlled. Those infidels and criminals who do that horrendous acts against humanity have forgotten about the "Judgment Day". And..

Revelation 21:8
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 

[Koldo]

every time God tried to tell people how to live properly, they told Him to "get lost" so He stopped trying to help. It is not God making people suffer but people who do not want to follow His rules for a successful life

If there is a way to not live up properly then it is messed up from the start.

 

[Etritonakin]

So your not gonna read my post, but then criticize my formatting and say you won't read it until later. Neglecting my post does not help your argument.

If you want to continue please make direct quotes, answering what I asked, because this entire thread has been circlejerking and wasting time.
I made your text smaller because I assumed you wouldn't feel the need to read your own text, but wanted to specify what I wanted to respond to. Seeing as my post was getting a bit wally.

Your post is essentially saying the same thing as your others, except with bible verses.

I find it interesting that you don't have time to read my post but have time to make this other irrelevant wall. This is quite clearly you trying to distract me from the debate at hand.

It wasn't about time -I was tired, and your posts are also tiresome -wearing us out, as it were.

If you were interested in an actual exchange of ideas, I would continue -but you have chosen your course.

When your chosen course has worn you out as well, you will begin to understand.

I wish you well.

 

[Milton Platt]

I can't help but look back on events that have happened in the past 15 years and wonder "where was God?" The events that I cite are for example purposes only. In no way am I trying to cause someone pain, heart ache, or dishonoring the dead.

1. September 11, 2001: four planes are hijacked by terrorists. Two are crashed into the WTC, one hits the Pentagon and one goes down in a field. Thousands of people lost their lives, many of whom have nothing to do with what is going on in the Middle East. Where was God?

2. Afghanistan and Iraq (21st century): US forces travel in convoys and are under strict orders of "DO NOT STOP." If they do stop for civilians, those same civilians will try to run up to the convoy and steal food, water, supplies, etc. Parents would toss their young children on the road in front of the convoys, trying to make them stop...but the convoys couldn't. Imagine being the driver of that lead vehicle and having to run over a child because of a desperate parent. Where was God?

3. I have had numerous cases where a child (toddler) was beaten to death by an adult. Where was God?

4. I had a case where an ~80 year old widowed white woman had been married to her husband for 60+ years, had only been with him, and was a devout Christian. A ~20 year old black male broke into her house, beat the crap out of her and raped her. I can't imagine the psychological torment she experiences to this day. Where was God?

5. Refugees are fleeing Syria by the millions. On September 2, 2015, two boats carrying refugees capsized at sea. One of the deceased has been all over the news...it was a three year old little boy who drowned and his lifeless body washed up on a beach in Turkey. What possible purpose was there in that boy's death? Where was God?

6. ISIS is murdering people left and right in extremely grotesque manners. They are beheading people SLOWLY with knives, drowning people, burning people alive, blowing people's head's off with explosives, and having children (recruits) shoot adult prisoners in the back of the head. Where is God?



I use these examples to drive home a point...

There are those that believe that God controls everything. If that is the case, then you have to blame God for the above atrocities, every wicked act, evil, corruption and senseless death. What damn purpose does any of that stuff serve?

Before you answer, know that we have heard it all before:
"God works in mysterious ways"
"We can't know the mind of God"
"Everything happens for a reason"
"We don't see His plan or the bigger picture"
"Satan causes evil and suffering"

Every single one of those answers are nothing but a cop out because you can't logically answer those questions, when you put God in control of everything followed by the notion that He is a loving God. That is my biggest problem with religions/people that make that claim.

The same people will jump to the Satan excuse...that he is the one that causes those things. By that very statement they contradict the claim that God is in control of everything. Is Satan subject to God'a authority or not? Of course I don't believe in the invisible boogeyman called Satan, but I use him to illustrate that point.

The only logical explanation that I have been able to think of after 40 years, while maintaining my belief in God, is the belief in free will. If God were to intervene on any of those accounts, then it is no longer free will. With that gift comes great sacrifice, sorrow, pain, misery, hardship and loss of life.

Which would mean that at least in regard to humans, this god does not exert control, and therefore cannot know the outcome of our lives in advance. He is as clueless as we are. If you wish to maintain that he knows in advance what our free will choices are, then you are back to predestination.

The most interesting item in your list is "we can't know the mind of god". That means if he exists, we actually have no way to know if he is ultimately good or ultimately evil. Christianity could all be based on a cruel charade and he is laughing his *** off right now.

 

[Neo Deist]

Which would mean that at least in regard to humans, this god does not exert control, and therefore cannot know the outcome of our lives in advance. He is as clueless as we are. If you wish to maintain that he knows in advance what our free will choices are, then you are back to predestination.

The most interesting item in your list is "we can't know the mind of god". That means if he exists, we actually have no way to know if he is ultimately good or ultimately evil. Christianity could all be based on a cruel charade and he is laughing his *** off right now.

I am a deist. By that definition, God exists, but that is about the extent of it.