Where Was God...

[Neo Deist]

I can't help but look back on events that have happened in the past 15 years and wonder "where was God?" The events that I cite are for example purposes only. In no way am I trying to cause someone pain, heart ache, or dishonoring the dead.

1. September 11, 2001: four planes are hijacked by terrorists. Two are crashed into the WTC, one hits the Pentagon and one goes down in a field. Thousands of people lost their lives, many of whom have nothing to do with what is going on in the Middle East. Where was God?

2. Afghanistan and Iraq (21st century): US forces travel in convoys and are under strict orders of "DO NOT STOP." If they do stop for civilians, those same civilians will try to run up to the convoy and steal food, water, supplies, etc. Parents would toss their young children on the road in front of the convoys, trying to make them stop...but the convoys couldn't. Imagine being the driver of that lead vehicle and having to run over a child because of a desperate parent. Where was God?

3. I have had numerous cases where a child (toddler) was beaten to death by an adult. Where was God?

4. I had a case where an ~80 year old widowed white woman had been married to her husband for 60+ years, had only been with him, and was a devout Christian. A ~20 year old black male broke into her house, beat the crap out of her and raped her. I can't imagine the psychological torment she experiences to this day. Where was God?

5. Refugees are fleeing Syria by the millions. On September 2, 2015, two boats carrying refugees capsized at sea. One of the deceased has been all over the news...it was a three year old little boy who drowned and his lifeless body washed up on a beach in Turkey. What possible purpose was there in that boy's death? Where was God?

6. ISIS is murdering people left and right in extremely grotesque manners. They are beheading people SLOWLY with knives, drowning people, burning people alive, blowing people's head's off with explosives, and having children (recruits) shoot adult prisoners in the back of the head. Where is God?



I use these examples to drive home a point...

There are those that believe that God controls everything. If that is the case, then you have to blame God for the above atrocities, every wicked act, evil, corruption and senseless death. What damn purpose does any of that stuff serve?

Before you answer, know that we have heard it all before:
"God works in mysterious ways"
"We can't know the mind of God"
"Everything happens for a reason"
"We don't see His plan or the bigger picture"
"Satan causes evil and suffering"

Every single one of those answers are nothing but a cop out because you can't logically answer those questions, when you put God in control of everything followed by the notion that He is a loving God. That is my biggest problem with religions/people that make that claim.

The same people will jump to the Satan excuse...that he is the one that causes those things. By that very statement they contradict the claim that God is in control of everything. Is Satan subject to God'a authority or not? Of course I don't believe in the invisible boogeyman called Satan, but I use him to illustrate that point.

The only logical explanation that I have been able to think of after 40 years, while maintaining my belief in God, is the belief in free will. If God were to intervene on any of those accounts, then it is no longer free will. With that gift comes great sacrifice, sorrow, pain, misery, hardship and loss of life.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

The only logical explanation that I have been able to think of after 40 years, while maintaining my belief in God, is the belief in free will. If God were to intervene on any of those accounts, then it is no longer free will.

Not necessarily. It would just mean that the deity would be intervening to save free-will beings some hardship.

 

[Sees]

A lot of it depends on how people imagine or believe Divine Being/s should be micromanaging and dictating the happenings in human lives here on earth.

If He/She/They can...should/would there be the want to or the responsibility to do so?

How much daily crap fixing and puppeteer string-pulling would people want? How much ignorance, cowardice, cruelty, etc. will be Divine responsibility to fix and combat vs humans responsibility?

 

[George-ananda]

The only logical explanation that I have been able to think of after 40 years, while maintaining my belief in God, is the belief in free will. If God were to intervene on any of those accounts, then it is no longer free will. With that gift comes great sacrifice, sorrow, pain, misery, hardship and loss of life.

I'm not sure what the debate is to be about. Would we prefer no free will to do good and evil? What would the alternative look like?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I seem to remember reading about how the tower of babel was destroyed, that seems to me to be example of a deity causing strife and division, so there's an example of intervention?

 

[Neo Deist]

I seem to remember reading about how the tower of babel was destroyed, that seems to me to be example of a deity causing strife and division, so there's an example of intervention?

If you take that story literally...

 

[Sees]

Also #2, though not really key to the topic, the "do not stop" thing is overblown. I spent years over there, often driving key personnel and cargo...never killed or maimed anybody by hitting or driving over them with a vehicle and don't personally know any service members or civilians who did. Media tends to be ridiculous.

 

[psychoslice]

I seem to remember reading about how the tower of babel was destroyed, that seems to me to be example of a deity causing strife and division, so there's an example of intervention?

Surely you don't believe that story to be literally true ?.

 

[Etritonakin]

Where were we? We were new, we were ignorant, we were arrogant, we made mistakes.
God was not new -was not ignorant -was not arrogant -did not make mistakes.....
God made us able to create -to do any thing -and told us not to do those things which were evil.

He knew we would make mistakes.
He knew that from the time of our initial awareness until the time of our perfection, there would be imperfection.
He declared himself to us -but knew....
that we would not know him -until we knew him....
because we were new.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God was before us and is after us. He gave the creation over to futility in hope -will wipe away all tears -and the former things will not be brought into remembrance.

Why? To make us as he is.

Rev_22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

After showing mankind that mankind would continually reject God, God gave mankind over to their own will -for the most part.
God asks mankind (paraphrasing) "WHERE WERE YOU"?

When God raises the dead -when God renews the earth -we will know that God was before us -and after us.

Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves...

God answered that question before you asked it.

Why did God allow evil? God will nullify evil -and much good will result from allowing us to do it for a time.

Why did God allow mankind to do evil? Mankind will weary of evil and choose to do only good.

Why did God allow destruction? ...etc., etc...

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Surely you don't believe that story to be literally true ?.

No, of course not. But even metaphorically, it is a story of a deity causing societal division on some level.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Well what u mentioned is really nothing compared to the sufferings of the prophets and their followers in the ancient times.


“Or think you that you will enter Paradise without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? They were afflicted with severe poverty and ailments and were so shaken that even the Messenger and those who believed along with him said, ‘When (will come) the Help of Allah?’ Yes! Certainly, the Help of Allah is near!”

[al-Baqarah 2:214].


I think Death is the bringer of divine help. When the soul sees the reward of paradise he forgets the world.

 

[Neo Deist]

Also #2, though not really key to the topic, the "do not stop" thing is overblown. I spent years over there, often driving key personnel and cargo...never killed or maimed anybody by hitting or driving over them with a vehicle and don't personally know any service members or civilians who did. Media tends to be ridiculous.

I have had vets tell me that this happened to them. I agree that it is probably not as widespread as the media has portrayed in the past (they chase ratings), but I have no doubt that it has happened.

 

[Neo Deist]

No, of course not. But even metaphorically, it is a story of a deity causing societal division on some level.

Actually, it was probably a campfire story told some ~4,000 years ago, and it grew from there. I can just imagine a child sitting around the fire at night with his clan, and he asks Grandpa "why do people speak different languages?" In an effort to answer the child (because elders are supposed to be wise and all that), Grandpa came up with the story.

 

[Laika]

As an Atheist, I find the question of "why would god allow this to happen?" is replaced with "why would people allow this to happen?". In the end I've started to question the standards of right and wrong which we measure ourselves by as we tend not to live up to them. its much more obvious in extreme cases where they decsend into logical absurdity. its very jarring with my self-image as a "good" person as you have to face up to the fact that wanting to do good and doing good are not the same thing. the "bad guys" do win, but I hold on to the idea that it is no more inevitable than the reverse.

 

[Neo Deist]

Not necessarily. It would just mean that the deity would be intervening to save free-will beings some hardship.

I disagree. Everything that happens is because of someone's choice. You might be the victim of a choice that someone else made. If you can think of anything that would not fall under a free will choice that God could intervene with, please post it.

Edit: as a deist, I see nature following its designed course, so natural disasters don't count. Although the argument could still be made that someone made a choice that put them in harm's way of a natural event (e.g. tornado).

 

[rusra02]

Your question is asked by many people. Why does God permit suffering and wickedness? Here is what I believe is the primary but not only reason. What if your neighbor accused you of all sorts of vile things, including being an abusive parent, neglecting your family, and being a liar? He even gets some of your children to side with him. You have the power to destroy this puny and slanderous neighbor. Why not do do? You may respond, violence will not settle the issues the neighbor raised. I will sue him for slander and ultimately prove his lies to be false. Meanwhile, your family suffers, since it takes time to go to court and prove your case.
In effect, Satan is that slanderous neighbor. (Genesis 3:4,5) He accused God of lying and abusing his authority. God could have destroyed Satan at once, but that would not have resolved the issue of the righteousness of God's sovereignty over mankind. Wisely, the true God has allowed time for Satan's claim to be proved false, and Jehovah's righteousness to be proved. Mankind has tried to rule itself and has largely rejected God's rulership. The results are what you listed, all caused by people who reject God's rulership. I believe God's toleration of wickedness will soon end. I believe the Bible promise that this wicked world under Satan's misrule " is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever." (1 John 2:17)

 

[`mud]

One large piece of the 'free will' analogy is:
It's not really 'free', and no entity gave it !
Some take it, and some are victims of it !
~
'mud

 

[Quintessence]

I use these examples to drive home a point...

There are those that believe that God controls everything. If that is the case, then you have to blame God for the above atrocities, every wicked act, evil, corruption and senseless death. What damn purpose does any of that stuff serve?

Yup. My gods do indeed "control" everything. And yes, some of them are "to blame" for so-called "atrocities." Though these terms are not how I would put things, on the whole... so what? I'm not seeing the problem. What purpose does it serve? Realizing that you, as a teeny insignificant human being, are at the mercy of forces far greater than you, that don't necessarily give two $#@% about your happiness, well-being, or your life.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can't help but look back on events that have happened in the past 15 years and wonder "where was God?" The events that I cite are for example purposes only. In no way am I trying to cause someone pain, heart ache, or dishonoring the dead.

1. September 11, 2001: four planes are hijacked by terrorists. Two are crashed into the WTC, one hits the Pentagon and one goes down in a field. Thousands of people lost their lives, many of whom have nothing to do with what is going on in the Middle East. Where was God?

2. Afghanistan and Iraq (21st century): US forces travel in convoys and are under strict orders of "DO NOT STOP." If they do stop for civilians, those same civilians will try to run up to the convoy and steal food, water, supplies, etc. Parents would toss their young children on the road in front of the convoys, trying to make them stop...but the convoys couldn't. Imagine being the driver of that lead vehicle and having to run over a child because of a desperate parent. Where was God?

3. I have had numerous cases where a child (toddler) was beaten to death by an adult. Where was God?

4. I had a case where an ~80 year old widowed white woman had been married to her husband for 60+ years, had only been with him, and was a devout Christian. A ~20 year old black male broke into her house, beat the crap out of her and raped her. I can't imagine the psychological torment she experiences to this day. Where was God?

5. Refugees are fleeing Syria by the millions. On September 2, 2015, two boats carrying refugees capsized at sea. One of the deceased has been all over the news...it was a three year old little boy who drowned and his lifeless body washed up on a beach in Turkey. What possible purpose was there in that boy's death? Where was God?

6. ISIS is murdering people left and right in extremely grotesque manners. They are beheading people SLOWLY with knives, drowning people, burning people alive, blowing people's head's off with explosives, and having children (recruits) shoot adult prisoners in the back of the head. Where is God?



I use these examples to drive home a point...

There are those that believe that God controls everything. If that is the case, then you have to blame God for the above atrocities, every wicked act, evil, corruption and senseless death. What damn purpose does any of that stuff serve?

Before you answer, know that we have heard it all before:
"God works in mysterious ways"
"We can't know the mind of God"
"Everything happens for a reason"
"We don't see His plan or the bigger picture"
"Satan causes evil and suffering"

Every single one of those answers are nothing but a cop out because you can't logically answer those questions, when you put God in control of everything followed by the notion that He is a loving God. That is my biggest problem with religions/people that make that claim.

The same people will jump to the Satan excuse...that he is the one that causes those things. By that very statement they contradict the claim that God is in control of everything. Is Satan subject to God'a authority or not? Of course I don't believe in the invisible boogeyman called Satan, but I use him to illustrate that point.

The only logical explanation that I have been able to think of after 40 years, while maintaining my belief in God, is the belief in free will. If God were to intervene on any of those accounts, then it is no longer free will. With that gift comes great sacrifice, sorrow, pain, misery, hardship and loss of life.

If I believed in the abrahamic God, I would not see God controling anyone and thing. Id also not see "Him giving" us control over our actions (free will). Id see it as God working through me. Everything " I " do would be guided by God. So, God does nothing but guide me. He does not do anything for me.

On that note, people who have horrible things happen to them may or may not have had God guide them. However, because cause and affect work on its own ( I make a cause and it has an affect) then there was a cause somewhere that "naturally" made those effects happen. Its part of nature. God doesnt control nature. In Abrahamic faiths, He created nature, set it in motion, and whatever happens happens.

As for free will, I personally do not believe we are separate from The Law (Lotus) or karma. However, to many Christians (I dont know about jewish and muslim) think otherwise. To me thats saying they are not a part of nature and the natural law. Wrong.

God would be guiding them to do good things, they have the choice to do bad things, but because of God (not themselves), they do good. Anything they do bad is on them (against Gods guidence), it causes a ripple to people effected by their actions.

God controls nothing.

I just feel personally, that karma is imbalanced if we claim God is absent when we do bad things but there when we do goos. To be balanced, God is both light and dark (somewhere in Psalms). If I were a believer, the purpose is to be in balance with God.

If we had no free will, that would not matter. We would not be puppets (unless people want to do bad things) but in total, one hundred percent guidence by God. As such, we would only "choose" Him. Why people see that wrong, I dont know.


--
Anyway, God didnt control those events. Peoples karma effect others and naturally there is an effect to every causw. Why blame God for something He created-natural law includes-but does not interveme to change the laws or nature? Your question is asking about God changing the laws of naturw to intervene and save people who came to Their not Gods time to die. We are interconnected. People who believe in God are guided by Him not controled. I still say free will is not necessary but people want to do bad things to see good. To me, thats pointless. Id never want to burn my hand in order to train myself not to touch the heat. Just dont let me near the fire (no snake) and I can "choose to do good things" that wont harm.

Anyway, thats my take. I dont believe im God. I am prooving a point.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Actually, it was probably a campfire story told some ~4,000 years ago, and it grew from there. I can just imagine a child sitting around the fire at night with his clan, and he asks Grandpa "why do people speak different languages?" In an effort to answer the child (because elders are supposed to be wise and all that), Grandpa came up with the story.

That's one heck of a story though. He'd have explained that, yes son this clan on the other side of the river that's warring with us was so divided by our deity, all to keep the whole of mankind out of his hair. And between them and the mega fauna we can never challenge god, for that's what the story was about.

I disagree. Everything that happens is because of someone's choice. You might be the victim of a choice that someone else made. If you can think of anything that would not fall under a free will choice that God could intervene with, please post it.

Edit: as a deist, I see nature following its designed course, so natural disasters don't count. Although the argument could still be made that someone made a choice that put them in harm's way of a natural event (e.g. tornado).

Everyone has choice in the game I guess. There have been those have made bad choices, terrible ones that have intersected mercilessly upon their fellow man. Occasionally if an angel of mercy would toss his/her choice into the hat, it might negate an ill choice of man here or there. For if everyone is free to do evil, and some do achieve it, that can only ever mean that the good lack protection. Even without a powerful deity, the good struggle against the evil to hoist up a strong enough shield, and so sometimes succeed in intervening with the free will of the evil. However, sometimes unfortunately they fail - and that is failure to goodwill, and a victory for evilwill.