Taxes skyrocket, I hear.
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What is the universe? Which one seems more likely to you?
- Thread starter Segev Moran
- Start date
#4 isn't a theory either; it's an ontological assertion, just like the other three. It is even pretty close to the dictionary definition of what is meant in common usage by the term "universe"...
Asserting #4 does not necessarily preclude that 1, 2, or 3 might be the case as well.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
#1 seems least improbable to me
2 and 3 don't seem entirely distinct from #1?
#4 I'd say is the most logically problematic : e.g.
all the laws of nature can ultimately be accounted for by... those very same laws
and these self creating laws were apparently able to create a universe with sentient, intelligent, creative beings.. with the potential to create their own realities (as 1 through 3) through their own ID... But that's definitely not what happened in our case ?!
Segev Moran
Well-Known Member
I Didn't mean scientific theories.. rather plain Theories... But I accept you comment and would refer them as Ideas....
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
No, atheists don't like being ignored and will wind you up even more.
Bawwwwwww-hawwwwwwwwwwwww.
I've met a few atheists. Most all were when I was a non traditional college student.
Non trad means I was 48 and most students were 18 to 20 something.
Being young and perhaps a bit educated they knew everything.
I recall when I was about 16 or so that I was convinced that my way under educated father was so
dumb!
When I was 30 I was amazed at how smart he really was.
He believed in that God thing. Just because he survived 5 major battles in WWII he knew there had to be a God.
Dad didn't go to church.
When his unit was being shelled by German artillery and men was being blown to pieces all around him he knew
the next German 88 mm round would take him out.
He said out loud " God Almighty please let this next round be a dud."
It was.
Bawwwwwww-hawwwwwwwwwwwww.
I've met a few atheists. Most all were when I was a non traditional college student.
Non trad means I was 48 and most students were 18 to 20 something.
Being young and perhaps a bit educated they knew everything.
I recall when I was about 16 or so that I was convinced that my way under educated father was so
dumb!
When I was 30 I was amazed at how smart he really was.
He believed in that God thing. Just because he survived 5 major battles in WWII he knew there had to be a God.
Dad didn't go to church.
When his unit was being shelled by German artillery and men was being blown to pieces all around him he knew
the next German 88 mm round would take him out.
He said out loud " God Almighty please let this next round be a dud."
It was.
And probably the ones torn apart by functioning shells asked something similar. After all, there are no atheists in foxholes, allegedely, so we can expect a lot of praying during combat.
It is simple matter of random selection: the ones who pray and survive can claim that God helped them; the others cannot claim anything, for obvious reasons.
Ciao
- viole
I get that.
Having been in a few gunfights as a police officer I know the pucker factor and prayed
"please let that sum' b#tch miss". They missed.
Thank GOD I never killed another human.
I was sick enough with p.t.s.d./alcoholism as it was.
I knew officers that killed in the line.
NONE were ever "right" again and ALL eventually took a "mental stress" disability and moved on.
Sadly some, including my former partner killed themselves.
One tortured deputy officer took a disability after killing THREE armed robbers in a gun fight.
A year later he killed his family and then himself.
He never got ANY counseling by anyone.
My God my poor mind is so broken at times.
Happily my p.t.s.d. is pretty much in remission as is my drinking.
I simply can't drink as if there is another relaps my docs tell me I'll die an alcoholic death.
Pronto.
Ergo why I pray daily & often asking for God's will and help and attend A.A. at least 5 X a week.
Well I drank every day so why not a lot of A.A.?
#ell I can't even remember the last "spree" as I awoke near dead in a rehab with nurses plunging
hypo's in my tush to bring me around.
THAT was a close brush with death.
No cure for addiction. Only abstinence.
Having been in a few gunfights as a police officer I know the pucker factor and prayed
"please let that sum' b#tch miss". They missed.
Thank GOD I never killed another human.
I was sick enough with p.t.s.d./alcoholism as it was.
I knew officers that killed in the line.
NONE were ever "right" again and ALL eventually took a "mental stress" disability and moved on.
Sadly some, including my former partner killed themselves.
One tortured deputy officer took a disability after killing THREE armed robbers in a gun fight.
A year later he killed his family and then himself.
He never got ANY counseling by anyone.
My God my poor mind is so broken at times.
Happily my p.t.s.d. is pretty much in remission as is my drinking.
I simply can't drink as if there is another relaps my docs tell me I'll die an alcoholic death.
Pronto.
Ergo why I pray daily & often asking for God's will and help and attend A.A. at least 5 X a week.
Well I drank every day so why not a lot of A.A.?
#ell I can't even remember the last "spree" as I awoke near dead in a rehab with nurses plunging
hypo's in my tush to bring me around.
THAT was a close brush with death.
No cure for addiction. Only abstinence.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
All we know seems to point to #4. I am open to other possibilities if enough scientifically sound evidence is ever produced.
Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
#4 gets a special waiver from requiring scientific evidence?
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
Bawwwwwww-hawwwwwwwwwwwww.
I've met a few atheists. Most all were when I was a non traditional college student.
Non trad means I was 48 and most students were 18 to 20 something.
Being young and perhaps a bit educated they knew everything.
I recall when I was about 16 or so that I was convinced that my way under educated father was so
dumb!
When I was 30 I was amazed at how smart he really was.
He believed in that God thing. Just because he survived 5 major battles in WWII he knew there had to be a God.
Dad didn't go to church.
When his unit was being shelled by German artillery and men was being blown to pieces all around him he knew
the next German 88 mm round would take him out.
He said out loud " God Almighty please let this next round be a dud."
It was.
Being under artillery fire must be a terrifying experience. But this does support the idea that belief in God and afterlife is intimately related to the fear of death. When death is near people tend to grasp at metaphysical straws.
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Yes I get that 100% having been shot at, beaten, stabbed at, as a police officer.
I've witnessed that in trying to comfort people hopelessly injured who knew they were dying.
People that my have never even set foot in church.
It's something innate in us humans.
Explain that.
Believe as you wish. Like all humans you are a free moral agent able to make choices.
Segev Moran
Well-Known Member
Bawwwwwww-hawwwwwwwwwwwww.
I've met a few atheists. Most all were when I was a non traditional college student.
Non trad means I was 48 and most students were 18 to 20 something.
Being young and perhaps a bit educated they knew everything.
I recall when I was about 16 or so that I was convinced that my way under educated father was so
dumb!
When I was 30 I was amazed at how smart he really was.
He believed in that God thing. Just because he survived 5 major battles in WWII he knew there had to be a God.
Dad didn't go to church.
When his unit was being shelled by German artillery and men was being blown to pieces all around him he knew
the next German 88 mm round would take him out.
He said out loud " God Almighty please let this next round be a dud."
It was.
Not being disrespectful to your father, But do you think (objectively) that seeing how awful humans can be, by witnessing death and anger and sacrifice is something that proves God?
Isn't it a lot reasonable that he just was lucky?
I Mean, Why God chose to save him on not all the men that were torn to pieces?
Why would God have ANY reference who lives and who dies?
Why would God save someone over someone else?
Either 4 is saying nothing, or it is saying something similar to #1, without being clear on what makes for super natural in #1. Such that #1 could be restated as: All there is is God, Nothing more, Nothing less. And it would mean the exact same thing.
Sorry, that is wrong. Science rests fundamentally on faith. Once that is accepted, the assumptions come into play.
Segev Moran
Well-Known Member
Can you give me an example of a scientific theory that is based on Faith?
Perditus
へびつかい座
I can see how people would think science is based on faith. It takes faith on the part of the theorist to formulate his theory, but it is not religious faith. It is faith in his idea.
Through experimentation and observation the theorist gradually learns the truth about his idea and his belief passes from objective, secular faith to fact.
I'm saying before theory comes the faith. The whole "self evident" axioms that science rests on are (entirely) faith based at a fundamental level. Once that is accepted, rationalizations can be made that lend to reason or are, like other intellectual endeavors, ripe with logical fallacies. When those fallacies occur, faith may be invoked to uphold either theory (more like conclusions) as correct, but more likely to put forth beliefs that methodology is sound/best we can do. Yet, I'm speaking to the fundamental level of faith in the claim I'm making. I'm still seeking whatever objective evidence anyone wishes to provide that the physical realm exists objectively. Alluding to physical senses as way to provide evidence is on par with saying God of the bible exists, because the bible says so.
Likewise, saying the universe is nature and leaving it at that, really isn't saying anything. Again, I see it as equivalent to saying the universe is illusion, nothing more, nothing less. And leaving it at that. I'm not sure if there's a word that can't be used in that type of claim and be equally valid.
Segev Moran
Well-Known Member
I Disagree with that statement.
You are mixing up Faith with Assumption.
Scientist makes an assumption based on experiments, evidence and knowledge.
For example, if a scientist will come up with a theory that claims that the moon is made of Cheese...
There must be a basis to this assumption...
The mix up here is lack of understanding what a scientific Theory or Idea is...
Unlike Faith, One cannot just go and claim he's got an idea (Well, he can , but no one will consider it as scientific) based on faith... there has to be a basis for his claim.
So saying it is Faith in the Idea is also wrong...
Darwin for example... It wasn't Faith that drove him to his ET...
It was careful observations, It was an Idea that rose while he noticed the variety of species.. It wasn't something that came up to him out of the blue.
Same goes for Newton.. He didn't have Faith that there is Gravity... Or that bodies attract one another.. He came to it after observing nature and realizing that there are PROBABLY some forces at work . Based on the Idea, He started investigating the idea and came up with the theory....
Science have ZERO faith.
There is not one Valid scientific theory that is based on Faith (Including the false ones)