What does this forum mean by libertarian?

[Ukonkivi]

I personally think that the Libertarian right and Anarcho Capitialists can be called Libertarians and Anarchists.
I just think they have differences on some of the hierarchy they want freedom from.
While I'll admit that I think Libertarian Socialists are more Libertarian that Anarcho Capitalists, I won't stop considering them these things.

Libertarian Capitalists simply want freedom from government, not capitalism, too.
Libertarian Socialists want to live as free from both law/government and capitalism both as much as possible.

I'm on the Libertarian Socialist side. I don't like lots of government and laws, but I'm also not so fond of capitalism, either.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

In principle anarchism might be anti-hierarchy, but in practice it is anything of the sort. Since I do not value the idea of some gang of thugs (warlords) pointing a gun in my face and telling me that they are in charge (and who is going to stop them when they have a gun in your face) I must politely decline to support the original more anarchic version of libertarianism. Libertarianism like all ideologies has evolved over time, and I am fairly confidant that governmental minimalism while still recognizing the need for structure and regulatory action is the way to go.

MTF

 

[Revoltingest]

History, schmistory...names, schmames....I care not who thought what & when regarding definitions. What matters is usage. The word "libertarian" is
predominantly used to mean pro-liberty, both socially & economically, & minimal coercion. From this premise, we favor small gov't & low taxes. I admit,
however, it can be useful to pick a label when it confounds the prejudices of others...."Jeffersonian liberal" is a good one.

As for people who describe themselves as socialist libertarians, they may accurately do so if their socialism is voluntary, ie, individuals freely associating
(eg, a commune). But the label would be bunk if they want a centrally planned economy & wealth redistribution imposed upon us.

 

[Amy30]

No, capitalists are not an exploitative class, except maybe in a fascist economy. You are imposing your leftist views here -- views I believe to be in error with respect to reality.



In this vein, business owners and managers are coerced by the threat of starvation into selling their leadership, vision, and know-how, and investors are coerced into investing their money into risky ventures where they may not see a return on their investments.

But I object to the view that coercion is truly involved. This would imply that you are "coerced" by your own nature as a living being. No one is forcing you to be biologically human. Employees are not being coerced to sell their labor any more than business owners are being coerced to sell employment because their spouses and children need to eat too.

Liberty is not freedom from human nature or the necessities of life.

Freedom always has a context, and that is human life, with all its needs and abilities. In a free society, where a handshake replaces a gun for mutual interaction, there is no coercion, even if you feel a strong motivation to take actions necessary to satisfy your survival needs.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Mark, I have read several of your posts. I look forward to reading more. I agree with you thus far and almost (devilishly) look forward to a point of contention with you because I respect the way you communicate and your ethic. I have the rare occasion of enjoying a conversation with another who really challenges me. All my beliefs and opinions are always subject to reconsideration in light of new or more sound arguments. I have no loyalty to any that defy truth and logic. Until then

 

[Izdaari]

Libertarian is a pretty broad term. I think it could reasonably be used to describe anyone whose highest political value is individual liberty. That could certainly include socialists, etc.... so long as what they advocate is purely voluntary. But once someone puts equality as a higher value than individual liberty, and says it's ok to use coercion to get there, that's not libertarian at all.

IMO, the NAP (Non-Aggression Principle) is key to all flavors of libertarianism. I.e., the classic formulation: "My right to swing my arm ends where your nose begins."

 

[Revoltingest]

Libertarian is a pretty broad term. I think it could reasonably be used to describe anyone whose highest political value is individual liberty. That could certainly include socialists, etc.... so long as what they advocate is purely voluntary. But once someone puts equality as a higher value than individual liberty, and says it's ok to use coercion to get there, that's not libertarian at all.

Aye, that's how I see it too. But this forum as a DIR has been rather meaningless in the few years I've been here because so many who identify as "Socialist" (in that DIR where it's the economically authoritarian flavor) will also identify as "libertarian socialist", thereby justifying their inclusion here. They're really the N American modern "liberal", ie, favoring progressive personal liberty, but wanting a massive welfare state imposed upon us. (Note: Progressives differ socially from libertarians, eg, tending to want more regulation of speech, & apologizing for authoritarian ventures in their party.) Wikipedia confuses the issue by including "libertarian socialists" who would forcibly take property & ban capitalism/free markets.

Libertarianism (Latin: liber, free) is a classification of political philosophies that uphold liberty as their principal objective. Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and freedom of choice, emphasizing political freedom, voluntary association and the primacy of individual judgment.

This is impossible to reconcile with...

...libertarian socialists, seek to abolish capitalism and private ownership of the means of production in favor of their common or cooperative ownership and management.

Perhaps we need a capital "L" forum, ie, for "Libertarian" (as in the party)
values for those of us who value freedom in both social and economic areas, eh?

IMO, the NAP (Non-Aggression Principle) is key to all flavors of libertarianism. I.e., the classic formulation: "My right to swing my arm ends where your nose begins."

Agreed...that as much as possible, this is our core value.


Note: Broad generalizations here. Feel free to challenge.