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What does this forum mean by libertarian?

GloriaPatri

Active Member
NuGnostic said:
They are different movements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchism

Collectivist anarchism, also known as anarcho-collectivism, is a 19th century anarchist doctrine that advocated the abolition of the state and private ownership of the means of production, with the means of production instead being owned collectively and controlled and managed by the producers themselves. Workers would be compensated for their work on the basis of the amount of time they contributed to production, rather than "to each according to his need" as in anarcho-communism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism

Anarchist communism is a form of anarchism that advocates the abolition of the State and capitalism in favor of a horizontal network of voluntary associations through which everyone will be free to satisfy his or her needs.

As you can see in anarcho-collectivism workers are paid directly for their labour in anarcho-communism you simply work and get what you need.
Right from your precious Wikipedia:

"Collectivist anarchism, also known as anarcho-collectivism, is a 19th century anarchist doctrine that advocated the abolition of the state and private ownership of the means of production, with the means of production instead being owned collectively and controlled and managed by the producers themselves"

Hey, that sounds like communism/anarchy to me...

Rubbish,in capitalism you have the technical and hollow right within a coercive social situation to either work for a capitalist or starve or start a business where the odds are sharply against you.
You have the right to go find work or to not find work. You have the right to start a business or not start one. You do not have the right to do nothing and expect to be supported. You can certainly lead an existance like Tom Hanks did in Castaway - it's your right. But you have no right to leech of others because you do not want to work.

No I'm not, in "anarcho"-capitalism there would be private states with a monopoly of force.
What? Private states? That's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. What's a private state? A monopoly on force means a group/organization has the "right" to initiate coercive force against another, which flys in the face of libertarianism. It is done at the barrel of a gun point. You have no choice. In a free market you have the choice to use goods and services or not. Have you ever heard of the non-aggression axiom? No, you haven't. You don't make any sense.

Not really, labour(including entreprise.) and nature create all material value that is the simple key to the LTV and that is correct, while the capital(which is stored labour.) and land are productive the permission of the landholder and capitalist,while of course required by our social relations are not productive,this is simple fact.
It is simply untrue that products derive their worth from the amount of labor put in to them. What the LTV does is ignore the roundaboutness.

Here is a good article concerning the erroneous doctrine of the LTV: http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1680

and an excerpt:

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]As always, Böhm-Bawerk illustrates his general arguments with specific examples to assure the unsatisfied reader. He asks us to imagine a steam engine that requires five years of labor to produce, and has a final price of $5,500. Suppose that one worker labors for five consecutive years to produce one such engine. How much is the worker due? The obvious answer is $5,500, i.e., the full value of his product. But notice that the worker can only be paid this “full” amount if he is willing to wait the full five years.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]Now what if we have a more realistic situation, where the worker is paid in continual yearly installments? In particular, suppose the worker labors for just one year, and then expects to be paid. How much is he due? Böhm-Bawerk answers, “The worker will get justice if he gets all that he has labored to produce up to this point. If . . . he has up to this time produced a pile of unfinished ore…then he will be justly treated if he receives . . . the full exchange value which this pile of material has, and of course has now” (p. 264).[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]But now we must inquire further: What will be the exact dollar value of this unfinished ore? A superficial analysis might indicate that, because the worker has produced (so far) one-fifth of the labor going into the steam engine, then the worker ought to receive one-fifth of the exchange value of a steam engine, i.e. $1,100. Yet Böhm-Bawerk declares:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]That is wrong. One thousand one hundred dollars is one-fifth of the price of a completed, present steam engine. But what the worker has produced up to this time is not one-fifth of a machine that is already finished, but only one-fifth of a machine which will not be finished for another four years. And those are two different things. Not different by a sophistical splitting of verbal hairs, but actually different as to the thing itself. The former fifth has a value different from that of the latter fifth, just as surely as a complete present machine has a different value in terms of present valuation from that of a machine that will not be available for another four years. (pp. 264–65)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]Because present goods are more valuable than future goods, it necessarily follows that one-fifth of a machine-to-be-delivered-in-four-years is worth less than one-fifth of a present steam engine. Therefore, the worker cannot possibly be paid $1,100 for his first year of labor, if he insists on payment upfront (rather than waiting until the engine is completed and sold). If we assume a rate of interest of 5 percent, the worker will be paid roughly $1,000 for his first year of labor.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]Workers Can Always Choose to Lend Their Wages at Interest[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]Böhm-Bawerk offers yet another argument to convince the skeptic. If there is any doubt that the worker above is being treated fairly by being paid only the discounted value of his marginal product (i.e. $1,000) rather than the eventual present value of his marginal product, Böhm-Bawerk points out that the worker is certainly free to lend his wages out at the prevailing rate of interest of 5 percent per year. After four years, the worker will have $1,200 (ignoring compounding),[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica][1][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]and there is thus no basis to claim that the institutional framework somehow forces the worker to receive less than the full value of his contribution.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]If the worker is willing to wait until the product of his labor actually accrues into a saleable product, then he will have the “full value” that even a socialist analysis would require. However, if the worker is not willing to wait, and desires an advance in the form of present goods in exchange for his labor (that will not produce consumable goods until the future), then he must be willing to pay the market premium on present goods.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]Conclusion[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]Böhm-Bawerk’s refutation of the exploitation theory is valuable not merely as a critique of an erroneous doctrine, but also as a lucid exposition of subjective value theory. Even the professional economist would probably benefit from Böhm-Bawerk’s analysis, for he raises many subtle points that I have not included in this article. Regardless of one’s opinion of Böhm-Bawerk’s own theory of interest, reading his History and Critique of Interest Theories is certainly time well spent.[/FONT]

Not really, libertarian socialism was just about as popular as revolutionary Marxism until the first world war.
No it wasn't. Only in the USA and Spain it was. In all other countries Marxism was the predominant ideology of the revolutionary left.
 

NuGnostic

Member
GloriaPatri said:
Right from your precious Wikipedia:

"Collectivist anarchism, also known as anarcho-collectivism, is a 19th century anarchist doctrine that advocated the abolition of the state and private ownership of the means of production, with the means of production instead being owned collectively and controlled and managed by the producers themselves"

Hey, that sounds like communism/anarchy to me...
What the hell, you cut off this part:

Workers would be compensated for their work on the basis of the amount of time they contributed to production, rather than "to each according to his need" as in anarcho-communism.

That was just an underhanded attempt at misrepresentation and what's more not a very good one.
This just proves you were lying,otherwise you'd know what communism was and the difference between anarcho-collectivism and anarcho-communism.

You have the right to go find work or to not find work. You have the right to start a business or not start one. You do not have the right to do nothing and expect to be supported. You can certainly lead an existance like Tom Hanks did in Castaway - it's your right. But you have no right to leech of others because you do not want to work.
You have the right to work for someone else,start a company which ith the odds stacked against you or starve/go on welfare.
What? Private states? That's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. What's a private state?
What are you talking about,a private state is simply an organisation with a monopoly of force which is not an official nation state.
A monopoly on force means a group/organization has the "right" to initiate coercive force against another, which flys in the face of libertarianism.
Exactly which is why right/vulgar libertarianism isn't libertarian.
It is done at the barrel of a gun point. You have no choice. In a free market you have the choice to use goods and services or not.
I know all about free markets I'm an individual anarchist/mutualist like Tucker or Proudhon.
http://mutualist.org/

Have you ever heard of the non-aggression axiom? No, you haven't. You don't make any sense.
Right.............


It is simply untrue that products derive their worth from the amount of labor put in to them. What the LTV does is ignore the roundaboutness.

Here is a good article concerning the erroneous doctrine of the LTV: http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1680

and an excerpt:
Mises and the Austrians are statist idiots,this is not the place to discuss the LTV(not least because I seem to end up discussing it all the time of forums.),suffice to say I know it is true and am not detered for a second by your arguments.

You can read these however if you want to see why I know I'm right.
http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secC1.html
http://www.diy-punk.org/anarchy/secC1.html

And here's a article that deals with Böhm-Bawerk's attacks on the LTV.
http://mutualist.org/id50.html
No it wasn't. Only in the USA and Spain it was. In all other countries Marxism was the predominant ideology of the revolutionary left.
You are talking out of your rear again,this is just not true,for instance the Paris commune was run by mutualists.
 

Radio Frequency X

World Leader Pretend
*yawns* I think maybe this is a thread that calls for moderators to define Libertarianism as what it means to modern American Society. There is no way for Libertarians and Marxist-like anarchists to share the same forum.
 

NuGnostic

Member
Radio Frequency X said:
*yawns* I think maybe this is a thread that calls for moderators to define Libertarianism as what it means to modern American Society. There is no way for Libertarians and Marxist-like anarchists to share the same forum.
Double post.
 

NuGnostic

Member
Radio Frequency X said:
*yawns* I think maybe this is a thread that calls for moderators to define Libertarianism as what it means to modern American Society. There is no way for Libertarians and Marxist-like anarchists to share the same forum.
Marxist like,What do you mean? That is just a cheap rightist jibe,what you say if I called you vulgar libertarianism Pinochet like or Mussolini like?

You mean of course we accept the LTV,which was not invented by Marx nor is owned by him.
The only true libertarians are Individual free market anrchists like myself and social anarchists like anarcho-communists the rightist variety are not libertarian at all as capitalism cannot be libertarian.
 

Radio Frequency X

World Leader Pretend
NuGnostic said:
The only true libertarians are Individual free market anrchists like myself and social anarchists like anarcho-communists the rightist variety are not libertarian at all as capitalism cannot be libertarian.

That is absurd. A Libertarian, in America, is someone who votes Libertarian or who otherwise agrees with the general Libertarian platform. Anarcho-communists are Anarcho-communists, not Libertarians.
 

NuGnostic

Member
Radio Frequency X said:
That is absurd. A Libertarian, in America, is someone who votes Libertarian or who otherwise agrees with the general Libertarian platform. Anarcho-communists are Anarcho-communists, not Libertarians.
Firstly this is an international board on the international network,so I don't care what a bunch of right-wing yanks do.
Secondly is it not absurd that anarcho-communists cannot use the word even though one of them invented it 120 years before some distinctly unlibertarian right-wing yanks took it up, and even though it still means anarchists in the rest of the world.(except perhaps were american influence has been rubbing off through the internet.)
 

Radio Frequency X

World Leader Pretend
NuGnostic said:
Firstly this is an international board on the international network,so I don't care what a bunch of right-wing yanks do.
Secondly is it not absurd that anarcho-communists cannot use the word even though one of them invented it 120 years before some distinctly unlibertarian right-wing yanks took it up, and even though it still means anarchists in the rest of the world.(except perhaps were american influence has been rubbing off through the internet.)

I'm sorry Nu. But your position seems absolutely absurd to me, and I don't understand why you are allowed to post in this forum. Every other "only" forum is protected from trolls except this one.
 

NuGnostic

Member
I'm sorry Nu. But your position seems absolutely absurd to me, and I don't understand why you are allowed to post in this forum. Every other "only" forum is protected from trolls except this one.
What part of the fact we invented the word 120 years before you did or it still means anarchists in the rest of the world is absurd?
Is this an americans only forum?
 

NuGnostic

Member
I myself a free market anarchist/true libertarian, am I supposed to have been out-libertarianed by conservative corporate apologetics who know little of free markets?
 

Radio Frequency X

World Leader Pretend
NuGnostic said:
I myself a free market anarchist/true libertarian, am I supposed to have been out-libertarianed by conservative corporate apologetics who know little of free markets?

No, you are simply confused as to what a free market is, what liberty is, the proper libertarian role of government, and modern American politics. That is a laundry list of things you don't seem to understand. The Libertarian Party is also in Canada btw, so maybe they can call this forum the North American Libertarian only Forum, so that we don't have to deal with you coming in, trolling around to whine and complain that American Libertarians are a bunch of wanks, or whatever idiotic name calling you've pulled out in this thread. I’m not going to sit here, quietly, and watch you mock Libertarianism in a Libertarian forum. Liberals and Conservatives don't have to suffer the same annoyance. I'm not sure why we do.
 

NoahideHiker

Religious Headbanger
Radio Frequency X said:
No, you are simply confused as to what a free market is, what liberty is, the proper libertarian role of government, and modern American politics. That is a laundry list of things you don't seem to understand. The Libertarian Party is also in Canada btw, so maybe they can call this forum the North American Libertarian only Forum, so that we don't have to deal with you coming in, trolling around to whine and complain that American Libertarians are a bunch of wanks, or whatever idiotic name calling you've pulled out in this thread. I’m not going to sit here, quietly, and watch you mock Libertarianism in a Libertarian forum. Liberals and Conservatives don't have to suffer the same annoyance. I'm not sure why we do.

Personally I do not even give the people who claim Libertarians are anarchists any time. This only comes from ignorance of the political theory of Libertarianism. To me Libertarianism means a community being able to decide for themselves rather than having the federal government make our laws and decisions for us. It doesn't mean anything and everything should be legal. It means states making their own laws as long as they do not violate the Constitution and farther down the line local governments making their own laws as long as they do not violate the state's laws.

And Libertarianism is nothing new. The origanal liberals held the same views.
 

Radio Frequency X

World Leader Pretend
NoahideHiker said:
Personally I do not even give the people who claim Libertarians are anarchists any time. This only comes from ignorance of the political theory of Libertarianism. To me Libertarianism means a community being able to decide for themselves rather than having the federal government make our laws and decisions for us. It doesn't mean anything and everything should be legal. It means states making their own laws as long as they do not violate the Constitution and farther down the line local governments making their own laws as long as they do not violate the state's laws.

And Libertarianism is nothing new. The origanal liberals held the same views.

Libertarianism as a political movement has been aimed at protecting people from government, not at getting rid of government all together. Lots of people have held this view throughout history and most of the time they are ignored for two reasons.

1. Once people become dependant on Government, they fear being free.

2. People constantly give up liberty for security, or to punish sects of people they don't like (racism), envy (entitlements), or otherwise resent (Christian Conservatives vs. everyone else).
 

NuGnostic

Member
Radio Frequency X said:
No, you are simply confused as to what a free market is, what liberty is, the proper libertarian role of government, and modern American politics. That is a laundry list of things you don't seem to understand. The Libertarian Party is also in Canada btw, so maybe they can call this forum the North American Libertarian only Forum, so that we don't have to deal with you coming in, trolling around to whine and complain that American Libertarians are a bunch of wanks, or whatever idiotic name calling you've pulled out in this thread. I’m not going to sit here, quietly, and watch you mock Libertarianism in a Libertarian forum. Liberals and Conservatives don't have to suffer the same annoyance. I'm not sure why we do.
You are a conservative.
I know exactly what a free market is,I'm all for them, I'm a individual anarchist like Benjamin Tucker,unlike the american style minarchist (un)"libertarians" who are just corporate apologetics and wants to remove the welfare state while ignoring all the massive massive pro-capitalist intervention both past and present.
 

NuGnostic

Member
NoahideHiker said:
Personally I do not even give the people who claim Libertarians are anarchists any time. This only comes from ignorance of the political theory of Libertarianism. To me Libertarianism means a community being able to decide for themselves rather than having the federal government make our laws and decisions for us. It doesn't mean anything and everything should be legal. It means states making their own laws as long as they do not violate the Constitution and farther down the line local governments making their own laws as long as they do not violate the state's laws.

And Libertarianism is nothing new. The origanal liberals held the same views.
Exactly.
Libertarian doesn't have to mean completely anarchist,although historically it has ,but how are the pro-corporate,pro-state interventionist libertarian party really libertarian?

You are though using a very american centred definition though and ignoring the fact the word libertarian was invented by anarchists in the 1840s and it took until the 70s until for it to be used by the randriods,chicago boy style corporate liberators.
There are indeed many right-style libertarians who are trully libertarians particularly those that are what are called the rothbardian left,but most just enjoy attacking the welfare state and ignoring the much,much larger pro-corporate intervention
 

NuGnostic

Member
Kevin Carson summed up the vulgar libertarians well when he says their.

"ideal 'free market' society of such people, it seems, is simply actually existing capitalism, minus the regulatory and welfare state: a hyper-thyroidal version of nineteenth century robber baron capitalism, perhaps; or better yet, a society 'reformed' by the likes of Pinochet, the Dionysius to whom Milton Friedman and the Chicago Boys played Aristotle."
 

NoahideHiker

Religious Headbanger
NuGnostic said:
Exactly.
Libertarian doesn't have to mean completely anarchist,although historically it has ,but how are the pro-corporate,pro-state interventionist libertarian party really libertarian?

You are though using a very american centred definition though and ignoring the fact the word libertarian was invented by anarchists in the 1840s and it took until the 70s until for it to be used by the randriods,chicago boy style corporate liberators.
There are indeed many right-style libertarians who are trully libertarians particularly those that are what are called the rothbardian left,but most just enjoy attacking the welfare state and ignoring the much,much larger pro-corporate intervention

As with any political system very few agree with all aspects of it. Those that do are called sheep. LOL! IMHO a great part of freedom comes from free markets and unbridled capitalism. If we say we want to be free should this not also apply to the economic world as well?

My big question to capitalist critics is; if not truly free markets and unbridled capitalism, then what?
 

NuGnostic

Member
NoahideHiker said:
As with any political system very few agree with all aspects of it. Those that do are called sheep. LOL! IMHO a great part of freedom comes from free markets and unbridled capitalism. If we say we want to be free should this not also apply to the economic world as well?

My big question to capitalist critics is; if not truly free markets and unbridled capitalism, then what?
What do you mean by capitalism?
I'm for completely free markets,but what I call capitalism is the interventionist system we live in where the state interferes to help the capitalist classes,this is not a free market,capitalism has never been a free market.
I just greatly dislike those who call themselves libertarians and then would dare to stick up for the state interventionist,capitalist system and generally most things on the right and then say they are for free markets and liberty.
No true free marketeer can be for any gov't intervention in the market,even to aid capitalists don't you agree?
And do you realise the scale of this intervention?

Read part two of this on capitalism and the state,I really recommend it,ignore the first part on the LTV if you wish.

http://www.mutualist.org/id47.html
 

Radio Frequency X

World Leader Pretend
NuGnostic said:
You are a conservative.
I know exactly what a free market is,I'm all for them, I'm a individual anarchist like Benjamin Tucker,unlike the american style minarchist (un)"libertarians" who are just corporate apologetics and wants to remove the welfare state while ignoring all the massive massive pro-capitalist intervention both past and present.

There is nothing Anarchist about Libertarians. Libertarians respect government and civilization. Anarchy is just organized crime.
 

NuGnostic

Member
Radio Frequency X said:
There is nothing Anarchist about Libertarians. Libertarians respect government and civilization. Anarchy is just organized crime.
Libertarians whether free market ones or social ones believe in freedom,gov't is against freedom.
 
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