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This is how angels operate often times.

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Coincidence maybe.. :shrug:

The priest did not just disappear or appear, he came and prayed and left, simple.

'Coincidence' seems like quite a stretch here.

They're saying that does not appear to be the impression of the people that were actually there.

Well, that is not what the article says, please try and read the extract again.

I did read it again and I stick with what I said.



No, nothing to do with Catholics and i don't think this is compatible with Sanantana Dharmah at all.

This is your most puzzling comment to me. Hindu lore of past and present is full of stories of gods/gurus/holy men miraculously coming to the aid of their devotees.


Not harsh mate, just realistic, instead of praising the hardworking people who actually saved the people, they have to make it supernatural and in doing this God takes the credit of saving them through his angel, but the reality is the priest just happened to be there, the fire services were already bringing the new equipment and due to the hard work of the paramedics and the fireees all worked out well. but who is the hero in the end, a priest who did nothing but pray, if it was this easy for angels to save lives, why do we have emergency services?

If it was a angel who came to earth and prayed, why not stay and prove himself to be a angel?

Who does not praise the hard work of the rescue team also?
 

thau

Well-Known Member
But accepting that it's Karmic cause/effect demonstrates that the supposedly all-loving God is either unwilling or unable to intervene with it.

If he's unable, then he's not omnipotent. If he's unwilling, then either he's not all-loving after all, or there's things that, for whatever reason, he's not telling us.

Then we're brought again to the either unwilling or unable, in this case about telling us about the complexities we can't see right away. If, for whatever reason, he's unwilling, fine, but then it's COMPLETELY unreasonable to expect us to believe in him automatically, and then to punish us for not doing so (if he doesn't, then all is well.) If unable, same problem as before.

(my opinion) ---

You seem intent on trying to match wits with God telling him how unreasonable He is, at the same time denying all of the manifestations telling you He surely exists.

If you could only accept the latter (which is replete with far more reason than science’s anti-god position could ever muster) you might not be so unyielding with the former.


Secondly: My spanking my two year old is neither unloving nor unwise. The two year old cannot understand certain dominant principles or morals. In the same way, God created us to know some things but not all. He asks for so little in terms of obedience and trust, and yet, most are unwilling to do that very little --- even though we all remain clueless as to where it all began and what the future could hold.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
(my opinion) ---

You seem intent on trying to match wits with God telling him how unreasonable He is, at the same time denying all of the manifestations telling you He surely exists.

Nothing of the sort has told me that. I'm not matching wits with God; I'm questioning a specific theology because it makes no sense.

There's only one God I'd NEVER try to match wits with: Odin.

If you could only accept the latter (which is replete with far more reason than science’s anti-god position could ever muster) you might not be so unyielding with the former.
Show that reason, because I've never seen it. For the record, science is not anti-god.

Secondly: My spanking my two year old is neither unloving nor unwise.


Yes it is (unwise that is.)

The two year old cannot understand certain dominant principles or morals.
But a two-year old can be directed to good behavior and away from destructive behavior without punishment.

In the same way, God created us to know some things but not all. He asks for so little in terms of obedience and trust, and yet, most are unwilling to do that very little --- even though we all remain clueless as to where it all began and what the future could hold.
Yes... he asks so little... just obedience and trust...

Just like all the megalomaniac fascists over the centuries. Surely he'll forgive us for demanding more when that exact request has NEVER ended well.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
Nothing of the sort has told me that. I'm not matching wits with God; I'm questioning a specific theology because it makes no sense.
We disagree. It is the only theology that makes sense.

There's only one God I'd NEVER try to match wits with: Odin.
Nor, apparently, would you try to provide empirical evidence for him (odin) either? Whereas, we are constantly having to do so for the Judeo-Christion One and Only. My contention is if God exists, then there surely is proof for Him and that is why I am comfortable where I stand. I am waiting for the Muslim, Hindu, Animist, et al. gods to provide their signs and wonders.

"If you could only accept the latter (which is replete with far more reason than science’s anti-god position could ever muster) you might not be so unyielding with the former.”
Show that reason, because I've never seen it. For the record, science is not anti-god.
I did not mean to imply science is anti-god, after all, the Catholic clergy and followers has contributed as much to science as the entire barbaric or secular European continent in the dark or middle ages. I said or implied there is a serious contingent of science or scientists who are intent on advancing the idea this world could have formed without a higher intelligence (i.e. God). THAT position lacks all logic and reason and is highly detrimental to society.


"Secondly: My spanking my two year old is neither unloving nor unwise.”
Yes it is (unwise that is.)
Perfectly ok with me that we should disagree on what is good or what is proper. But I must say, I remain wholly disheartened (should also mention dumbfounded) how short-sighted a liberal or non-god-feaing world thinks or operates.

me: “The two year old cannot understand certain dominant principles or morals.”
But a two-year old can be directed to good behavior and away from destructive behavior without punishment.
The pampered two year olds become the self-centered 5 and 12 year olds and adolescents in the West. No discipline or morals, no hope. And,yes, that is where we now stand, IMO.

me: “In the same way, God created us to know some things but not all. He asks for so little in terms of obedience and trust, and yet, most are unwilling to do that very little --- even though we all remain clueless as to where it all began and what the future could hold.”
Yes... he asks so little... just obedience and trust... Just like all the megalomaniac fascists over the centuries.
I see. And you have decided there is little to distinguish between Jesus Christ and Christian morals and charity --- vs. the infamous megalomaniac fascists you are referring to? And I am to take that as a well-informed reasoned argument.

Surely he'll forgive us for demanding more when that exact request has NEVER ended well.
Oh He will forgive you, if one is truly contrite and sincere. Beyond that, I am not sure what you mean by “that exact request has never ended well?” Are you hung up with hypocries in the pews or what?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
We disagree. It is the only theology that makes sense.

Demonstrate.

Nor, apparently, would you try to provide empirical evidence for him (odin) either? Whereas, we are constantly having to do so for the Judeo-Christion One and Only. My contention is if God exists, then there surely is proof for Him and that is why I am comfortable where I stand. I am waiting for the Muslim, Hindu, Animist, et al. gods to provide their signs and wonders.
You've never heard of the Milk Miracle, have you?

Besides, Odin and the Aesir don't provide signs and wonders probably because they don't want to. It's good enough for me that Odin's call was louder, stronger, and more persistent than any other God's.

'Sides, Odin's judgment allowed Christianity to thrive in Europe.

Clearly, he's not interested in a divine penis contest.

Perhaps these "signs and wonders" are simply the human mind seeing the miraculous in the mundane, instead?

I did not mean to imply science is anti-god,
You said it directly. "...science's anti-god position..."

after all, the Catholic clergy and followers has contributed as much to science as the entire barbaric or secular European continent in the dark or middle ages. I said or implied there is a serious contingent of science or scientists who are intent on advancing the idea this world could have formed without a higher intelligence (i.e. God). THAT position lacks all logic and reason and is highly detrimental to society.
No, it isn't. And for the record, the Gauls had a more accurate calender than Rome.

Perfectly ok with me that we should disagree on what is good or what is proper. But I must say, I remain wholly disheartened (should also mention dumbfounded) how short-sighted a liberal or non-god-feaing world thinks or operates.
Actually, it's anything BUT shortsighted.

The pampered two year olds become the self-centered 5 and 12 year olds and adolescents in the West. No discipline or morals, no hope. And,yes, that is where we now stand, IMO.
Who said anything about pampering them? Discipline =/= punishment.

Discipline is good. Punishment is bad.

I suggest you learn about behavioral redirection.

I see. And you have decided there is little to distinguish between Jesus Christ and Christian morals and charity --- vs. the infamous megalomaniac fascists you are referring to? And I am to take that as a well-informed reasoned argument.
No, you're not, because that's not what I said.

I compared the idea of asking nothing but obedience and trust to fascists. That's the case regardless of what God we're talking about.

I've seen the teachings of Jesus. The Sermon on the Mount is one of my favorite spiritual passages. I have nothing against Christianity as a whole, and think it's done much good in the world. Believe me, when anti-Christians start spewing that nonsense about Christians ruining the world, I take YOUR side in defending the Christianity's positives.

But just because I recognize the positives doesn't mean I shy away from the negatives. I'm willing to do that with my own religion's history (human sacrifice, slavery, Viking raids, etc.). Furthermore, I'm willing to admit that my Gods are NOT perfect. I've never seen evidence that perfection exists.

Truth is one of the Nine Noble Virtues.

Oh He will forgive you, if one is truly contrite and sincere. Beyond that, I am not sure what you mean by “that exact request has never ended well?” Are you hung up with hypocries in the pews or what?
I've only gone to church a couple times in my whole life. I wasn't raised Christian.

But when a God comes forth and makes the same exact offer as oppressive fascists, why should we take him any more seriously?
 
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KBond

Member
Thau, thanks for posting this fantastic story of angel intervention. I know of a different story that was inspiring to me. A man was experiencing complications from a quadruple bypass. Some Christians prayed for him at the hospital. At that time, he saw an angel writing down everything they prayed for and then flew up and out of sight. Afterward this happened, the man experienced a faster recovery than the doctors expected and was able to come off of his heart meds (when the docs thought he'd need them for life.)
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
First thing to all: When I opened my MSN homepage this was the #1 story.


Mainstream news doesn't seek to accurately report anything, they're trying to get viewers/readers, because that equals $$$. As a result, they print what will be read/watched, regardless of how accurate it is.

You keep talking about what not to believe. Not the news, not our own senses, other people's senses, etc.. What do we believe? Anything? How do we know anything happened ever?

How about we use our intelligent judgement to realize there is always the chance for error but this is not usually the case.

In order for this kind of thing to be believable, then this exact sort of thing should be so common that automobile accidents aren't much of a danger at all. Where was this "angel" when one of the students at my high school died in a terrible car accident?

Your saying: For miracles to be believable they have to be commonplace. I must contest the logic there.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
But accepting that it's Karmic cause/effect demonstrates that the supposedly all-loving God is either unwilling or unable to intervene with it.

If he's unable, then he's not omnipotent. If he's unwilling, then either he's not all-loving after all, or there's things that, for whatever reason, he's not telling us.

Then we're brought again to the either unwilling or unable, in this case about telling us about the complexities we can't see right away. If, for whatever reason, he's unwilling, fine, but then it's COMPLETELY unreasonable to expect us to believe in him automatically, and then to punish us for not doing so (if he doesn't, then all is well.) If unable, same problem as before.

Your changing this discussion to the famous 'Problem of Evil' debate. Fine, here's my take:

Life is eternal but 'Problem of Evil' believers view things from the limited perspective that life begins at birth and ends at death.The natural illusion.

I try to look at life from the perspective that life is eternal and we are in the process of learning that. We live as individuals for eons and not one life. We all return to godhead in the end. If one could see one's life from separation from godhead through the eons to return to godhead then things make more sense. What we see as evil are very short temporary events in the grand scheme of things where each individual story ends in success; return to peace/bliss/awareness of godhead.

Plus Problem of Evil proponents look at good/bad events as happening randomly to people. Eastern thinkers believe a long series of cause/events (karma) causes things to be they way they are. Standard Problem of Evil proponents believe in this one life only so evil seems unfair and cruel in that limited perspective.

If all the dramas were removed, it would just be a static-state sameness. Nothing would propel us to question, advance and grow.

I also use the analogy of creation as some grand expansive multi-dimensional artwork. And human problem of evil proponents view from their little spec and dimensional perspective of the artwork and try to judge the entire artwork. Their view is too limited to be meaningful.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
First thing to all: When I opened my MSN homepage this was the #1 story.

Still mainstream news.

You keep talking about what not to believe. Not the news, not our own senses, other people's senses, etc.. What do we believe? Anything? How do we know anything happened ever?

How about we use our intelligent judgement to realize there is always the chance for error but this is not usually the case.

The peer-review process and the reports that result from it are trustworthy.

Your saying: For miracles to be believable they have to be commonplace. I must contest the logic there.

Yup. They have to stop being miraculous.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Your changing this discussion to the famous 'Problem of Evil' debate. Fine, here's my take:

Life is eternal but 'Problem of Evil' believers view things from the limited perspective that life begins at birth and ends at death.The natural illusion.

I try to look at life from the perspective that life is eternal and we are in the process of learning that. We live as individuals for eons and not one life. We all return to godhead in the end. If one could see one's life from separation from godhead through the eons to return to godhead then things make more sense. What we see as evil are very short temporary events in the grand scheme of things where each individual story ends in success; return to peace/bliss/awareness of godhead.

Plus Problem of Evil proponents look at good/bad events as happening randomly to people. Eastern thinkers believe a long series of cause/events (karma) causes things to be they way they are. Standard Problem of Evil proponents believe in this one life only so evil seems unfair and cruel in that limited perspective.

If all the dramas were removed, it would just be a static-state sameness. Nothing would propel us to question, advance and grow.

I also use the analogy of creation as some grand expansive multi-dimensional artwork. And human problem of evil proponents view from their little spec and dimensional perspective of the artwork and try to judge the entire artwork. Their view is too limited to be meaningful.

You remember that I was a Hindu until earlier this year, right? I already know all that.

See, that solution works because it doesn't involve unjust punishment for minor offensive like what someone believes.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
Now national news. Priest not found in any of the 70 photos taken on the scene. Following link from the USA TODAY newspaper.

'Angel' priest visits Missouri accident scene

Only onc Catholic church anywhere in the surrounding four communities. He is not that church's priest. The twenty or more rescue workers on the scene from all these neighboring communities, none of them recognized him. He just appears and then just as mysteriously is gone. The road is blocked off never allowing traffic to come near. No way any of this makes any sense. Of course the "priest" would know how much news this story is making. Surely he would come forward and identify himself if he were truly a nearby person. He would not be playing games with these people causing such lies. After all, look how serious this tragedy has been for so many?

This "man" was an angel.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Now national news. Priest not found in any of the 70 photos taken on the scene. Following link from the USA TODAY newspaper.

'Angel' priest visits Missouri accident scene

Only onc Catholic church anywhere in the surrounding four communities. He is not that church's priest. The twenty or more rescue workers on the scene from all these neighboring communities, none of them recognized him. He just appears and then just as mysteriously is gone. The road is blocked off never allowing traffic to come near. No way any of this makes any sense. Of course the "priest" would know how much news this story is making. Surely he would come forward and identify himself if he were truly a nearby person. He would not be playing games with these people causing such lies. After all, look how serious this tragedy has been for so many?

This "man" was an angel.

Or an Elf. Or one of the local Gods.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
Or an Elf. Or one of the local Gods.

Yes. One of the "local gods" who just so happens to represent himself as a Catholic priest. (I wonder why?) Who just so happens to have a very long cherished holy oil used for anointing the sick in Catholic practice. (I wonder why?) Who also prayed Christian prayers with the victim. All to confuse humanity, apparently? What a mischievous "god" we have, a god of confusion.

Of course if it were an elf, he would be the first of his kind not to look like one.

Do you not agree we have entered the realm of it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, walks, talks, smells like one, too? But to call it a duck (read: angel) is just too hard for those who are afraid of their destiny (or immortal reality) to come to do?
 
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