Then I was Guided

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

MojBaba;

I do not know what do you mean!

I will try to explain my friend...You know when God created us..?..WE - didnt have ANY CHOICE,did we..?...We didnt get any influence at all...HE did it all..Designed our bodies and our world, and MADE us to exist - yes..?...So,in a real sense - all that was "forced" upon us...And then afterwards - He alone TOLD us - dictated to us - how to act, think BELIEVE and feel - and if we dont go along with HIS demands we are punished....So all along - in a very real sense, all our existance is actually FORCED by this god..

I do not know, why you do not consider the free will of the people, what lets them choose the illustrated truth or reject it.

I DO consider the free will of all people - I encourage it always - use my own ALWAYS and am even encouraging YOU to do the same here....I can see HOW free will leads to the division of course - but thats not the point - you said basically that Imams CANNOT FAIL to deliver the truth of God - INFALLABLE you said, cannot fail - which led me to wonder if they were legitimate Divine spokesman or not as clearly they HAVE failed and many version of "truth" exist.....You said they are INFALLABLE and CHOSEN by God - which led me to question if God WANTED such division or not..

Next you said, the God gave them ALL THE SAME TRUTH..Unique to Imams alone, only THEY know Gods WIll and common people do not, and that message to the Imams is the SAME TO THEM ALL you said....This led me to question BOTH the Imams - who FAIL to guide the people - and now I have to question the God also, as he FAILED to CHOOSE the correct people to guide his people...

Surely you can follow that..?..

It all pivots round that statement that you applied to BOTH God and Imam - INFALLABLE - it simply is not correct to state that, as definately the message was given differently by each Imam and that divided society....It must be then, either the Imams fault for failing to persuade - or it must be the Gods fault for choosing unworthy Imams...

Due to how you describe Imams, we simply cannot blame the people and their free will at all..For you said the Imam CANNOT FAIL in his task to deliver Gods truth and persuade them to follow....That IS what you said for that is what infallable actually means..Do you see - if your Imam was actually "infallable" then he could come to even ME a fully none Muslim - and just by his truth and that Divine appointment he would persuade me I should accept him - no matter what MY free will says, you say, HE CANNOT FAIL TO PERSUADE ME... That is his divine mission and that is what infallable means, he cannot fail in that task...YET THEY DO FAIL...do you see - and its not the peoples fault at all, the Imam is NOT what he is presented to be,and it is that simple..Either the Imam failed or the God himself failed when it chose the Imam for that task..

 

[mojtaba]

Hi Folks..

MojBaba;

I will try to explain my friend...You know when God created us..?..WE - didnt have ANY CHOICE,did we..?...We didnt get any influence at all...HE did it all..Designed our bodies and our world, and MADE us to exist - yes..?...So,in a real sense - all that was "forced" upon us...And then afterwards - He alone TOLD us - dictated to us - how to act, think BELIEVE and feel - and if we dont go along with HIS demands we are punished....So all along - in a very real sense, all our existance is actually FORCED by this god..

Yes. We didn't have any free will to choose to exist, to choose the futures of our bodies, to choose our families, etc. I am agree with you.

But, I do not see the world as you see and explain it. I see the God as what is the most perfect thing. He created us and then sent us out on the way of His love. Our best fate is the nearness to Him(i.e the most perfect thing), and He knows the best way for reaching to this goal and also, He loves us. Therefore, He has said us how to live to reach to the goal. Also, because He does not like our adversity(i.e., going away from Him), so that He determined some punishments for those who do not obbey His orders(i.e., what results in our nearness to Him), and indeed, His purpose for determination of the punishments, was to encourage us to do what results in our nearness to Him.
I see the world, as an opportunity for being near to the most perfect being.

I DO consider the free will of all people - I encourage it always - use my own ALWAYS and am even encouraging YOU to do the same here....I can see HOW free will leads to the division of course - but thats not the point - you said basically that Imams CANNOT FAIL to deliver the truth of God - INFALLABLE you said, cannot fail - which led me to wonder if they were legitimate Divine spokesman or not as clearly they HAVE failed and many version of "truth" exist.....You said they are INFALLABLE and CHOSEN by God - which led me to question if God WANTED such division or not..

Next you said, the God gave them ALL THE SAME TRUTH..Unique to Imams alone, only THEY know Gods WIll and common people do not, and that message to the Imams is the SAME TO THEM ALL you said....This led me to question BOTH the Imams - who FAIL to guide the people - and now I have to question the God also, as he FAILED to CHOOSE the correct people to guide his people...

Surely you can follow that..?..

It all pivots round that statement that you applied to BOTH God and Imam - INFALLABLE - it simply is not correct to state that, as definately the message was given differently by each Imam and that divided society....It must be then, either the Imams fault for failing to persuade - or it must be the Gods fault for choosing unworthy Imams...

Due to how you describe Imams, we simply cannot blame the people and their free will at all..For you said the Imam CANNOT FAIL in his task to deliver Gods truth and persuade them to follow....That IS what you said for that is what infallable actually means..Do you see - if your Imam was actually "infallable" then he could come to even ME a fully none Muslim - and just by his truth and that Divine appointment he would persuade me I should accept him - no matter what MY free will says, you say, HE CANNOT FAIL TO PERSUADE ME... That is his divine mission and that is what infallable means, he cannot fail in that task...YET THEY DO FAIL...do you see - and its not the peoples fault at all, the Imam is NOT what he is presented to be,and it is that simple..Either the Imam failed or the God himself failed when it chose the Imam for that task..

I think that God or Prophets or Imams did their duty complete.
They clarified the truth, what is unique and does not have different versions. But some of the people after clarification and accepting the truth logically, didn't accept it with their hearts, and you should know that the acceptance of the heart is the duty of the people, not divine mans.
So, on contrary what you do, I blame the people and their free wills. I blame those who instead of choosing to follow the truth, chose to follow their desires.

Good luck!