The Pagan, Buddhist, and Hindu Thread

[Aupmanyav]

It happened here, and about 2000 people offered Him milk.

A book on Ganesh I was reading mentioned Edmonton being a place that He took milk at.
I could understand avoiding due to the crowds. I may have stayed home, too,

when a deity idol starts accepting milk from devotees, the crowds here may be as huge as a hundred thousand.
me too. i prefer an individual meet with my old friends.

 

[Vinayaka]

when a deity idol starts accepting milk from devotees, the crowds here may be as huge as a hundred thousand.
me too. i prefer an individual meet with my old friends.

I have never been a 'crowd' kind of guy. My 'New Years' at our temple was this morning. Maybe 20 people. I don'
t mind it quite so much if it's an outside summer festival. At some of the famous Indian temples, there will be 10 or so other smaller temples nearby. I enjoyed a lot of those too. Why go to Tirumala and stand in the queue for 10 hours for 5 seconds of the Lord's darshan when you could see 5 temples or more and get 15 minute darshan at each one? And this is an increasing problem, with India's infrastructure improving so much. Things like huge parking lots are getting built.

 

[Aupmanyav]

when i was a theist, on a visit to sri badri temple, i worshiped sri badri in my heart and did not try to enter the temple because of the crowds. lord of badri vana did not mind it.

when we went to sri dwarika and somanath temple, we could watch the worship only on cctv, we were unable to enter the sanctum.

i am worried about the safety of visitors to rama temple in ayodhya. i do not think the old-style plan of the temple will be able to cope with the crowds. they have planned for 150,000 pilgrims each day. i believe a ka'aba type of open temple would have been better. so many pillars will only obstruct the view. but then, it is the lord's wish as to how the temple should be built. what will be, will be. a gurudwara style can accommodate more people.

 

[mangalavara]

Namaskāra, everyone. Many of you are familiar with a Śaiva holiday called Mahāśivarātri or 'Great Night of Śiva.' In Indian Hinduism, it is observed on Māgha Kṛṣṇapakṣa Caturdaśī. This is according to the amānta system where the last day of the month is the new moon tithi. On the other hand, in Indonesian Hinduism, the holiday is called Siwaratri and it is observed on Kapitu Kresnapaksa Purwaning Tilem. The word Kapitu means 'Seventh,' and it is the seventh lunar month. The meaning of Kresnapaksa is obvious to most Hindus. Finally, Purwaning Tilem apparently means something like 'Before the New Moon,' which is a reference to the 14th lunar day of the dark halfmonth.

This Tuesday (Jan. 9) night is Siwaratri. Although the date will actually be Kapitu Kresnapaksa 13th beginning at sunrise, it will change to the 14th at night. This is because every 63rd day on the Balinese Saka Calendar is ngunaratri (Sk. ūnarātri), meaning 'minus one night.' The purpose of ngunaratri is to keep the months in alignment with the moon (the Balinese Saka Calendar is arithmetical rather than observational). I have plans for Siwaratri. With Bhagavān Śiva's blessing, everything will occur nicely or even better. I hope the same for every Hindu in Indonesia and beyond who observes Siwaratri.

I plan to offer some white flowers, white leaves, and incense to the mūrti of Śiva. In addition, I plan to offer him a new mālā that I had ordered lately on Coupang and have been saving for Siwaratri. The mālā has 108 beads plus a Meru bead, and the beads are made from some kind of evergreen tree. The scent of the beads is a rich earthy one. After the offerings are made in one pūjā, I will meditate on Śiva's form and then do Śiva-nāma-japa.

According to this Indonesian news article from 2020, there are three things to be done on Siwaratri. The first is monabrata or 'vow of silence.' It is to be done from 6am to 6pm. Unfortunately, I have to work, so my vow of silence will have to be from sunrise to 1:30pm, which would be about six hours. The second thing to do is majagra or 'vigil.' This means staying awake all night. I'll see how that goes. The third thing to do is upawasa or 'fasting.' Indonesian Hindus practice this by abstaining from food and drink. Fortunately, Hinduism is not about rigid rules written by an angry god, so I will just abstain from food.

Lastly, according to this Indonesian article about Siwaratri, Siwaratri teaches us to cultivate these values: simplicity, cleanliness, self-control, and reverence. It is not only a time of meditation on Śiva but also a time of introspection so that we might improve what we do and how we interact with other beings. Anyway, this will be my first Siwaratri. While those of you who practice a more Indian or Nepali form of Hinduism will have to wait a month for Mahāśivarātri, I'll be observing the Indonesian Hindu equivalent very, very soon. For once, I will not be behind on something!

 

[Debater Slayer]

Quoting @Secret Chief here (with his permission) to ask about this post:

In Buddhism:
Karma is volitional action, the result is called pharma. All karma is pharma and all pharma is karma, moment by moment.

Ideas of victim-blaming don't come from Buddhism.

How is volitional action defined, and what is the result? For example, are results made up of someone's situation in life, what they experience, etc., or are they something else?

 

[Secret Chief]

Quoting @Secret Chief here (with his permission) to ask about this post:


How is volitional action defined, and what is the result? For example, are results made up of someone's situation in life, what they experience, etc., or are they something else?

Bear in mind Buddhism is
Not monolithic. There are considerable differences between traditions and schools. eg Vajrayana/Tibetan Buddhism does not resonate with me, nor did Theravada in the end.
Not prescriptive. What one makes of Buddhism is down to the individual.

Also bear in mind I'm quite stupid (see @JustGeorge for further details)

Simply put, our actions we choose to make. The result (phala) is what follows from said action (maybe instantly, maybe next year). Think of it as cause-and-effect. Each "effect" is of course a cause of something else etc etc. Trying to work out / untangle the karma/phala is not recommended! The Buddha said it would lead to "madness and vexation" and is therefore an unconjecturable.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Bear in mind Buddhism is
Not monolithic. There are considerable differences between traditions and schools. eg Vajrayana/Tibetan Buddhism does not resonate with me, not Theravada in the end.
Not prescriptive. What one makes of Buddhism is down to the individual.

Also bear in mind I'm quite stupid (see @JustGeorge for further details)

Simply put, our actions we choose to make. The result (phala) is what follows from said action (maybe instantly, maybe next year). Think of it as cause-and-effect. Each "effect" is of course a cause of something else etc etc. Trying to work out / untangle the karma/phala is not recommended! The Buddha said it would lead to "madness and vexation" and is therefore an unconjecturable.

What would it mean to try to untangle the karma/phala? For example, within the above framework, would seeing someone experience a positive event be sufficient or not to conclude that they were experiencing positive karma? Would concluding the converse be correct if one saw someone experience a negative event?

 

[Secret Chief]

What would it mean to try to untangle the karma/phala? For example, within the above framework, would seeing someone experience a positive event be sufficient or not to conclude that they were experiencing positive karma? Would concluding the converse be correct if one saw someone experience a negative event?

It would mean madness and vexation!
(You mean experiencing positive phala (result).)
Seriously, one can of course conjecture and we all do, and our own reasoning might lead us to think someone is getting positive phala as a result of positive karma by them previously or by another person or persons. Same with negative outcomes. But this sounds like we could end up with the stereotypical idea that when somebody gets their "comeuppance" it's as a result of karma. You get into the ideas of fate, punishments and getting "just desserts." Karma (or kamma) is not a judgmental idea, it is simply an expression for the relationships between our actions and their outcomes. Compassionate action can lead to compassionate outcomes but the "law" of karma is not judgmental, nor rewarding, nor punishing.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It would mean madness and vexation!
(You mean experiencing positive phala (result).)
Seriously, one can of course conjecture and we all do, and our own reasoning might lead us to think someone is getting positive phala as a result of positive karma by them previously or by another person or persons. Same with negative outcomes. But this sounds like we could end up with the stereotypical idea that when somebody gets their "comeuppance" it's as a result of karma. You get into the ideas of fate, punishments and getting "just desserts." Karma (or kamma) is not a judgmental idea, it is simply an expression for the relationships between our actions and their outcomes. Compassionate action can lead to compassionate outcomes but the "law" of karma is not judgmental, nor rewarding, nor punishing.

If I understand correctly: does this mean that all events, whether positive or negative, are the results of past actions, but one doesn't know whether a positive event is a result of a positive past action, and likewise for a negative event and a negative past action?

So, for example, is it possible for a positive event to be caused by a negative past action?

In other words, what is the specific relation or "cosmic algorithm," so to speak, that decides how actions are connected to outcomes? I understand from the above that it is not "positive past actions lead to positive outcomes" or "negative past actions lead to negative outcomes." Is that correct?

 

[Secret Chief]

If I understand correctly: does this mean that all events, whether positive or negative, are the results of past actions, but one doesn't know whether a positive event is a result of a positive past action, and likewise for a negative event and a negative past action?

My first thought is that this looks like karma makes for a predetermined mechanistic world? If so, that is not the case. As far as Buddhism is concerned there is such a thing as free will. We choose, within constraints, how we act in the world.

 

[Twilight Hue]

In another thread, I told someone I feel that us Buddhists, Pagans, and Hindus get swept under the rug around here.

So, I'm making a thread devoted to these three(very vast) worldviews. Any and all may participate, but this thread may not delve into discussions of Abrahamic viewpoints, scriptures, or their God.

Anyone have anything interesting to share or ask?

Yes. This rug thing.

Is it half empty or half full?

 

[JustGeorge]

Yes. This rug thing.

Is it half empty or half full?

Full of cat hair.

 

[Debater Slayer]

My first thought is that this looks like karma makes for a predetermined mechanistic world? If so, that is not the case. As far as Buddhism is concerned there is such a thing as free will. We choose, within constraints, how we act in the world.

I see. Thanks for the answers!

Would you say that belief in free will is necessary to be a Buddhist?

 

[crossfire]

Quoting @Secret Chief here (with his permission) to ask about this post:



How is volitional action defined, and what is the result? For example, are results made up of someone's situation in life, what they experience, etc., or are they something else?

Lemme give you a general breakdown:

Volitional action means something that you willfully choose to do.
What we volitionally choose to do also programs our habits--our unconscious programming we fall back on when we are not constantly mindful.
If you willfully perform skillful actions, you build skillful habits that may help you skillfully navigate a situation when you are not mindful--hopefully with good results--good karma.
If you willfully perform unskillful actions, you build unskillful habits that will probably unskillfully navigate you when you are not mindful--likely with unskillful results--bad karma.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Simply put, our actions we choose to make. The result (phala) is what follows from said action (maybe instantly, maybe next year). Think of it as cause-and-effect. Each "effect" is of course a cause of something else etc etc. Trying to work out / untangle the karma/phala is not recommended! The Buddha said it would lead to "madness and vexation" and is therefore an unconjecturable.

I am not a Buddhist but consider Buddha as my guru. I have learnt much from Buddha. Actions we choose to make - think, speak or act. 'May be instantly, may be next year or perhaps after 500 years' as it happened in the case of Babri Mosque in India. The Rama temple there was broken down in 1528, Hindus destroyed the mosque in 1992. It led to riots in India and many deaths (2,000-3,000). The Rama temple at that site came up again in 2024. That is why Buddha said 'do not try to untangle karma and phala (its results)'. Most of those who died did not have any connection with the destroyers of the temple or the destroyers of the mosque.

 

[Secret Chief]

Would you say that belief in free will is necessary to be a Buddhist?

Yes, certainly. Without a belief in free will there is no Buddhism.

edit: Karma means volitional action.

- volition — definition, examples, related words and more at Wordnik

 

[Debater Slayer]

Yes, certainly.

Ah, I see. I guess that excludes me, then!

(But I'll still feel free to draw inspiration from some elements of Buddhism. See my signature and user title. )

 

[Secret Chief]

Ah, I see. I guess that excludes me, then!

(But I'll still feel free to draw inspiration from some elements of Buddhism. See my signature and user title. )

Perhaps there isn't really free will, but a belief in it is the motivation at the heart of Buddhism I would say. Why sit behind the steering wheel of your car if you don't think you're the driver?

 

[Aupmanyav]

What would it mean to try to untangle the karma/phala? For example, within the above framework, would seeing someone experience a positive event be sufficient or not to conclude that they were experiencing positive karma? Would concluding the converse be correct if one saw someone experience a negative event?

That is the Noble Eight-fold Path of Buddha (details: Noble Eightfold Path - Wikipedia). This does not depend on the circumstances or perspective of a person. Basically, the right karma is one which does not harm and helps other people.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Perhaps there isn't really free will, but a belief in it is the motivation at the heart of Buddhism I would say. Why sit behind the steering wheel of your car if you don't think you're the driver?

I see the question of whether one has free will as more complicated than the above analogy would suffice to address, but that's a topic for a different thread.