The Book Of Mormon

[Audie]

It seems to me that the Book of Mormon is written in such a prolix style that it's effectively nearly unreadable. At the least it's off-putting.

A long time ago on the old Beliefnet board I rewrote a long passage from it and, with no particular effort and a great gain in clarity, reduced it by more than 30%. I don't say I'd get 30% reduction all the time, but I'd be surprised if I didn't routinely get a lot.

Mark Twain said if you deleted
" and it came to pass" youd just
have a pamphlet.

I'm impressed that this thread went over two pages before devolving into an anti-Mormon cork-board. No, seriously. That's actually pretty good.

Who is anti Mormon?
They seem a clean industrious lot.
It's that ridiculous book we are commenting on.

 

[blü 2]

Mark Twain said if you deleted
" and it came to pass" youd just
have a pamphlet.

Who is anti Mormon?
They seem a clean industrious lot.
It's that ridiculous book we are commenting on.

I wish I'd said that ...

 

[Audie]

Everyone here deals in truth. It's like prison, where everyone is innocent.

As for anti- this or anti-that, I'm sure most of us here have been around the block enough times to tell the difference between good-faith discourse and anti-<fill-in-the-blank> drive-by posts. They bear a common mark; they're not hard to spot. No harm, no foul, though. It's just part of the online forum environment.

As I said, I was genuinely impressed. I've been on other forum platforms where the atmosphere made you feel like a gladiator on the arena floor of the Colosseum—pretty much every time you posted. On those forums a thread would get 5 posts max before good-faith discourse was abandoned in favor of a word brawl. I've not been here long, but so far I've really enjoyed the atmosphere. I've seen relatively little of mean-spiritedness and vitriol. It's not perfect, but it feels as welcoming as I think discussion forums can be.

What do you mean by " deals in truth"?
If it's to be said of me I'd like to know what it us.

 

[Sand Dancer]

General Conference is next week. It will be 200 years since Joseph Smith's first vision so they're likely to mention it.

Thank you!!

 

[Sand Dancer]

Wow, no. I can't imagine the gospel or the religion without the revelations to Joseph (and subsequent prophets). They have been an immeasurable source of light and direction in my life. Please, let's keep them right where they are!

Well, I don't have the same experience you do, and it's only my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. I am glad they give you direction.

 

[Unfettered]

Who is anti Mormon?
They seem a clean industrious lot.
It's that ridiculous book we are commenting on.

I didn't say anyone was anti-Mormon. But I'm not going to labor the point. It seems to have been a short-lived wave.

 

[Audie]

I didn't say anyone was anti-Mormon. But I'm not going to labor the point. It seems to have been a short-lived wave.

Odd to complain about something when
there isn't anyone doing it.

 

[Unfettered]

What do you mean by " deals in truth"?
If it's to be said of me I'd like to know what it us.

I wouldn't get too hung up on it. It's just a casual way of saying that everyone here understands that he/she has the truth and interacts in the forum with that truth in mind.

 

[Unfettered]

Odd to complain about something when
there isn't anyone doing it.

I said my piece and it is enough.

 

[Audie]

I said my piece and it is enough.

I thought there might be content.
But whatevs.

 

[Audie]

I wouldn't get too hung up on it. It's just a casual way of saying that everyone here understands that he/she has the truth and interacts in the forum with that truth in mind.

So no content.

 

[Unfettered]

So no content.

No, there was content. This was the content: "I wouldn't get too hung up on it. It's just a casual way of saying that everyone here understands that he/she has the truth and interacts in the forum with that truth in mind."

 

[Unfettered]

Well, I don't have the same experience you do, and it's only my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. I am glad they give you direction.

Your opinion is as valid as everyone else's so no need to apologize for offering it.

 

[idea]

I'm impressed that this thread went over two pages before devolving into an anti-Mormon cork-board. No, seriously. That's actually pretty good.

Are you referring to my thread? That I left due to the child abuse?

I used to be like you... you can see my earlier posts. I used to rationalize it all away, and now I see the truth in all the criticisms.

It shouldn't take your own kids, and other kids you know and love being abused... so strange, how we only see what we want to see. No hard feelings to you. To see people still trapped in it - brings back memories. Where you are now, I once was... where I am now, I hope you will never experience.

 

[Unfettered]

Are you referring to my thread? That I left due to the child abuse?

I used to be like you... you can see my earlier posts. I used to rationalize it all away, and now I see the truth in all the criticisms.

It shouldn't take your own kids, and other kids you know and love being abused... so strange, how we only see what we want to see. No hard feelings to you. To see people still trapped in it - brings back memories. Where you are now, I once was... where I am now, I hope you will never experience.

My comment was not inspired by your personal sufferings, but by a style of posting. A style where the subject of the thread is replaced by a critical focus on a religion, where content unrelated to the OP is posted in quantity (not words of the poster, but copy/pasted), etc. It is not good-faith discourse and helps no one (if your intent was to help).

No, I don't want or expect you to rationalize anything away. Where you, or any other person, has been injured, you have my sincerest empathy. I am sorry. I appreciate that you hope I'll never experience what you did. I don't know exactly what you experienced, and my experience is not yours, but your prayer is late in my case. Not only are some of my earliest memories of being abused, but abuse was part of my life regularly for a long time. I stop short of saying it "ruined" many lives (there is abuse, but there is also healing), but I can truthfully say that many lives were deeply affected by it. Scars and effects do follow still. It sundered our family.

If you know of people trapped in abuse (you made an allusion that suggests this), I encourage you to act.

I don't know what you mean when you say "where you are now, I once was." Were you referring to being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

God bless.

 

[idea]

I don't know what you mean when you say "where you are now, I once was." Were you referring to being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

God bless.

Yes, I was once TBM. He's in jail now. The kids are forever changed though, will never have a normal family.

I feel it is my duty to warn others away from Mormonism now, so I post resources for anyone who is studying it.

It's like talking politics - religion is. If you have met someone who is all-in for some political view, and will not consider other viewpoints. Those who are all-in for some religious view (all religious groups have "true blue" members) - for those all-in, it isn't about real history, or what "the spirit" (elevation" really is. It is groupthink, about loyalty - not about truth. I was there, would not listen to anything critical of the Mormon church.

So many people from so many different backgrounds are now "not affiliated". I'm a big missionary for "non-affiliated" now. Politically and religiously independent. It is easier to see everything when not protecting loyalty to some group or person or people....

Kind of like a bishop accused of molesting children. Everyone chooses loyalty over reality. I mean, if someone accused your dad, your son, your brother - you choose loyalty, you protect your loved ones, you protect your family. That is how it is with group think. Everyone protecting their own family, their own church, their own political group. It is painful to not be part of any group, but things are more clear now. Some stay in various groups their entire life, and have good lives for it. Just different experiences in it all. The downside of groupthink, it is anti-other groups - thinking other groups have no authority, other groups are not chosen of god, other groups do not have spiritual experiences, that other viewpoints are misled - turns out, everyone's pretty similar.

 

[InChrist]

Are you referring to my thread? That I left due to the child abuse?

I used to be like you... you can see my earlier posts. I used to rationalize it all away, and now I see the truth in all the criticisms.

It shouldn't take your own kids, and other kids you know and love being abused... so strange, how we only see what we want to see. No hard feelings to you. To see people still trapped in it - brings back memories. Where you are now, I once was... where I am now, I hope you will never experience.

I converted to Mormonism in my twenties and was married to my husband in the temple. There was a family in our ward and it came out the father was molesting his oldest daughter. It was covered up by the church. I saw quite a bit of manipulation by those who were in “authority” over church members and of course you were not really a good Mormon if you didn’t pay your tithes and certainly couldn’t get a temple recommend. My husband and I left the Mormon church over thirty years ago before it could impact our children. We have noticed that a lot of Mormons who do leave, also lose any faith in God at all. We are thankful that we were saved by the real Jesus Christ and came to know the Gospel of Grace, so completely different than the Mormon Jesus and the legalistic religion of endless works.

 

[Unfettered]

Yes, I was once TBM. He's in jail now. The kids are forever changed though, will never have a normal family.

I feel it is my duty to warn others away from Mormonism now, so I post resources for anyone who is studying it.

It's like talking politics - religion is. If you have met someone who is all-in for some political view, and will not consider other viewpoints. Those who are all-in for some religious view (all religious groups have "true blue" members) - for those all-in, it isn't about real history, or what "the spirit" (elevation" really is. It is groupthink, about loyalty - not about truth. I was there, would not listen to anything critical of the Mormon church.

So many people from so many different backgrounds are now "not affiliated". I'm a big missionary for "non-affiliated" now. Politically and religiously independent. It is easier to see everything when not protecting loyalty to some group or person or people....

Kind of like a bishop accused of molesting children. Everyone chooses loyalty over reality. I mean, if someone accused your dad, your son, your brother - you choose loyalty, you protect your loved ones, you protect your family. That is how it is with group think. Everyone protecting their own family, their own church, their own political group. It is painful to not be part of any group, but things are more clear now. Some stay in various groups their entire life, and have good lives for it. Just different experiences in it all. The downside of groupthink, it is anti-other groups - thinking other groups have no authority, other groups are not chosen of god, other groups do not have spiritual experiences, that other viewpoints are misled - turns out, everyone's pretty similar.

I understand the elements of religion, and of the LDS church, specifically, to which you refer. Elevation and such, etc. The trend is away from such distractions, though they still remain. They will vary from place to place. Not everyone thinks independently. In our family, my wife and I teach our children to live the gospel, not live a culture. Clearly, not everyone takes that path. And that is fine. We progress on a timetable all our own.

 

[idea]

I understand the elements of religion, and of the LDS church, specifically, to which you refer. Elevation and such, etc. The trend is away from such distractions, though they still remain. They will vary from place to place. Not everyone thinks independently. In our family, my wife and I teach our children to live the gospel, not live a culture. Clearly, not everyone takes that path. And that is fine. We progress on a timetable all our own.

There are many good things within all groups, all teach charity, all teach service, all teach honest hard work - it takes a tribe. Nothing against anyone who is in any religious group, so long as they do not see their group as better than others. Nothing "true", just good . It's when anyone claims - we're the only ones with truth, or we're the only ones with authority that things get a little... well, what you don't appreciate in other groups, don't embrace in your own.

We are social critters, all connected - elevation is cool - I mean we are really really connected, you can feel one another. When you understand it isn't god, that feeling, that it is other people. Not "truth", not protection, not divine guidance -- but so neat to feel the other people around you.

Have to run - in my world, I'm protector, I'm provider, night shift tonight

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I think a lot of LDS members know their religion is full of deception but stay anyways to build a lasting community amongst the members of it.

How strange, to suppose that one must pretend to believe what one doesn't in order to build a community. My own experience is that community can be built with little more than good will and avoiding judgement of others.