The 12 Successors to Mohammad (s) in Quran and the Mahdi being the 12th Successor.

[Link]

Christianity is a religion that didn’t get things right. Same with Judaism. Otherwise Quran would not say Ibrahim is neither of those. All prophets are risen locally and their people are supposed to spread globally as much as they can.

Jesus (a) prepared the way for Mohammad (s) and his family (a). Isa (a) didn’t appear of no where before him was Yahya (a), before Yahya (a) - Zakariya (a) and before him Imran (a).

You are trying overcomplicate a simple concept and make things messy.

This is while Mohammad (s) came to a people who had not before him a Warner (from God).

Musa (a) came to people and brought a fresh foundation.

Moreover quran shows founders like Musa (s) and Mohammad (s) have blockage from people’s words from saying everything they want to say. Their successors build on knowledge of predecessors and can in time say what others had a harder time conveying.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link

The term Ummah in Scriptures and Hadithes is Not defined based on Location, Country or ethnicity. It is determined based on the different Holy Books and the Messenger they are given:


"To every people is a term appointed: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation)" 7:34

وَلَقَدۡ اَرۡسَلۡنَا رُسُلًا مِّنۡ قَبۡلِكَ وَ جَعَلۡنَا لَهُمۡ اَزۡوَاجًا وَّذُرِّيَّةً ؕ وَمَا كَانَ لِرَسُوۡلٍ اَنۡ يَّاۡتِىَ بِاٰيَةٍ اِلَّا بِاِذۡنِ اللّٰهِ ؕ لِكُلِّ اَجَلٍ كِتَابٌ


"......For Every Term a Book is appointed"
13:38

You can drive that from 7:34 and 13:38:

To every people is a term appointed.....For Every Term a Book is appointed


Thus, the Ummah of Moses, had a Term. Their Term ended with Jesus. Then the Term of People Jesus started till Muhammad. When Muhammad came, Term of people of Jesus ended. For each Term a Book of Law was appointed. To the term of People of Moses, Torah, and to the Term of people of Jesus, Gospel, and to the Term of people of Muhammad, The Quran.


وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ ٱلْإِنجِيلِ بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فِيهِ ۚ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فَأُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ هُمُ ٱلْفَـٰسِقُونَ ٤٧

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Christianity is a religion that didn’t get things right. Same with Judaism. Otherwise Quran would not say Ibrahim is neither of those. All prophets are risen locally and their people are supposed to spread globally as much as they can.

Jesus (a) prepared the way for Mohammad (s) and his family (a). Isa (a) didn’t appear of no where before him was Yahya (a), before Yahya (a) - Zakariya (a) and before him Imran (a).

You are trying overcomplicate a simple concept and make things messy.

What do you mean Christianity did not get things right? Are you saying Allah failed?

Of course Christianity got things Right, but for the Period it was appointed for by God. Remember, every people have a Term ( عجل). For their period, the guidance is with them more than anyone else. Muslims had a Term to. Remember, they had a golden Age. When their Term ends, that glory diminished.

 

[Link]

Nations are divided following ways in the Quran:

(1) The witness/leader they will be called with (time split by Imamate)
(2) The geography/location of the people (people of Mecca for example as Mohammad's (s) people)
(3) Their religions/sects.
(4) People who follow or bound by an ahlulbayt with their respective Ahlulbayt.

For example concerning the verse "the day we will call from every nation a witness from themselves"- the hadiths say people of Mohammad (s) who died before Mohammad (s) died, would be called with Mohammad (s), people of Ali (a) time with Ali (a), people with Hassan time (a) with Hassan (a).

 

[Link]

What do you mean Christianity did not get things right? Are you saying Allah failed?

Of course Christianity got things Right, but for the Period it was appointed for by God. Remember, every people have a Term ( عجل). For their period, the guidance is with them more than anyone else. Muslims had a Term to. Remember, they had a golden Age. When their Term ends, that glory diminished.

That is your interpretation that has no basis.

 

[Link]

As for term, I would contextualize it with the Surah and over all themes in Quran in that respect. For example, Nuh (a) tried to make people avoid "their term", but "if their term comes", then there is no avoiding it at that point. Kitab also doesn't always mean book or scripture, it can refer as expression of destiny.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

As for term, I would contextualize it with the Surah and over all themes in Quran in that respect. For example, Nuh (a) tried to make people avoid "their term", but "if their term comes", then there is no avoiding it at that point. Kitab also doesn't always mean book or scripture, it can refer as expression of destiny.

Avoiding means exactly what every people do. It means Allah announced to them that their Term ended, and a new Messenger and Book is to be followed. Then they resist this, saying our Messenger and Book is the Final and Last one.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link


في القرآن الكريم والحديث النبويّ عند كلّ طوائف المسلمين، وهو ما عرف من سنّة الله تعالى في الأمم السابقة بأنّه كان لكلّ أمّة اثني عشّر نقيباً ووصيّاً وإماماً.

قال تعالى في سورة المائدة: { وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثاقَ بَنِي إِسْرائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيباً } [1].

وكذلك أوصياء نبيّ الله عيسى كانوا اثنا عشر وصيّاً ونقيبا.

قال تعالى في سورة آل عمران: { فَلَمَّا أَحَسَّ عِيسى مِنْهُمُ الكُفْرَ قالَ مَنْ أَنْصارِي إِلَى اللَّهِ قالَ الحَوارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنْصارُ اللَّهِ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَاشْهَدْ بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ } [2].

قال القرطبي في تفسيره: والحواريّون أصحاب عيسى (عليه السلام) ، وكانوا اثني عشر رجلاً؛ قاله الكلبي وأبو رَوْق[3].

نهج المستنير وعصمة المستجير - الحسيني، صلاح الدين - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

All Ummahs were appointed with 12 CaptainS. Apostles of Jesus were twelve.

وَالْحَوَارِيُّونَ اثْنَا عَشَرَ رَجُلًا وَهُمْ: سَمْعَانْ بُطْرُسْ، وَأَخُوهُ أَنْدَرَاوِسُ، وَيُوحَنَّا بْنُ زَبْدِي، وَأَخُوهُ يَعْقُوبُ- وَهَؤُلَاءِ كُلُّهُمْ صَيَّادُو سَمَكٍ- وَمَتَّى الْعَشَّارُ وتوما وفيليبس، وبرثو لماوس، وَيَعْقُوبُ بْنُ حَلْفِي، وَلَبَاوِسُ، وَسَمْعَانُ الْقَانْوِي، وَيَهُوذَا الْأَسْخَرْيُوطِيُّ

التحرير والتنوير - ابن عاشور - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

In so many Hadithes, the Names of Apostles of Jesus is given and their number is twelve.
You can make your own conclusion.

 

[Link]

@Link


في القرآن الكريم والحديث النبويّ عند كلّ طوائف المسلمين، وهو ما عرف من سنّة الله تعالى في الأمم السابقة بأنّه كان لكلّ أمّة اثني عشّر نقيباً ووصيّاً وإماماً.

قال تعالى في سورة المائدة: { وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثاقَ بَنِي إِسْرائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيباً } [1].

وكذلك أوصياء نبيّ الله عيسى كانوا اثنا عشر وصيّاً ونقيبا.

قال تعالى في سورة آل عمران: { فَلَمَّا أَحَسَّ عِيسى مِنْهُمُ الكُفْرَ قالَ مَنْ أَنْصارِي إِلَى اللَّهِ قالَ الحَوارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنْصارُ اللَّهِ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَاشْهَدْ بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ } [2].

قال القرطبي في تفسيره: والحواريّون أصحاب عيسى (عليه السلام) ، وكانوا اثني عشر رجلاً؛ قاله الكلبي وأبو رَوْق[3].

نهج المستنير وعصمة المستجير - الحسيني، صلاح الدين - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

All Ummahs were appointed with 12 CaptainS. Apostles of Jesus were twelve.

وَالْحَوَارِيُّونَ اثْنَا عَشَرَ رَجُلًا وَهُمْ: سَمْعَانْ بُطْرُسْ، وَأَخُوهُ أَنْدَرَاوِسُ، وَيُوحَنَّا بْنُ زَبْدِي، وَأَخُوهُ يَعْقُوبُ- وَهَؤُلَاءِ كُلُّهُمْ صَيَّادُو سَمَكٍ- وَمَتَّى الْعَشَّارُ وتوما وفيليبس، وبرثو لماوس، وَيَعْقُوبُ بْنُ حَلْفِي، وَلَبَاوِسُ، وَسَمْعَانُ الْقَانْوِي، وَيَهُوذَا الْأَسْخَرْيُوطِيُّ

التحرير والتنوير - ابن عاشور - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

In so many Hadithes, the Names of Apostles of Jesus is given and their number is twelve.
You can make your own conclusion.

That's an interpretation of a scholar.

@Link


في القرآن الكريم والحديث النبويّ عند كلّ طوائف المسلمين، وهو ما عرف من سنّة الله تعالى في الأمم السابقة بأنّه كان لكلّ أمّة اثني عشّر نقيباً ووصيّاً وإماماً.

قال تعالى في سورة المائدة: { وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثاقَ بَنِي إِسْرائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيباً } [1].

وكذلك أوصياء نبيّ الله عيسى كانوا اثنا عشر وصيّاً ونقيبا.

قال تعالى في سورة آل عمران: { فَلَمَّا أَحَسَّ عِيسى مِنْهُمُ الكُفْرَ قالَ مَنْ أَنْصارِي إِلَى اللَّهِ قالَ الحَوارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنْصارُ اللَّهِ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَاشْهَدْ بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ } [2].

قال القرطبي في تفسيره: والحواريّون أصحاب عيسى (عليه السلام) ، وكانوا اثني عشر رجلاً؛ قاله الكلبي وأبو رَوْق[3].

نهج المستنير وعصمة المستجير - الحسيني، صلاح الدين - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

All Ummahs were appointed with 12 CaptainS. Apostles of Jesus were twelve.

وَالْحَوَارِيُّونَ اثْنَا عَشَرَ رَجُلًا وَهُمْ: سَمْعَانْ بُطْرُسْ، وَأَخُوهُ أَنْدَرَاوِسُ، وَيُوحَنَّا بْنُ زَبْدِي، وَأَخُوهُ يَعْقُوبُ- وَهَؤُلَاءِ كُلُّهُمْ صَيَّادُو سَمَكٍ- وَمَتَّى الْعَشَّارُ وتوما وفيليبس، وبرثو لماوس، وَيَعْقُوبُ بْنُ حَلْفِي، وَلَبَاوِسُ، وَسَمْعَانُ الْقَانْوِي، وَيَهُوذَا الْأَسْخَرْيُوطِيُّ

التحرير والتنوير - ابن عاشور - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

In so many Hadithes, the Names of Apostles of Jesus is given and their number is twelve.
You can make your own conclusion.

The first part is not a hadith but an opinion of a scholar. The hadiths you quote don't say the disciples are Captains or Successors. They say are twelve, but where does it say they are Captains or Successors or Imams? As far as I'm aware there are many hadiths about Simon Peter being successor of Isa (a). But like I said, he was successor same with four saffirs were successor to Hasan Al-Askari (a) - not that they were Imams pre-chosen or infallible.

 

[Link]

Okay I was wrong about one thing, none of it was hadith, it was all opinions of a scholar.

The only hadith he quotes which he doesn't fully but paraphrase it is all Prophets have twelve Captains and executors and leaders. However, if you see the actually hadiths, none of them state Hawraniyoon (disciples) were that status.

 

[Link]

There is also the following things to keep in mind:

(1) "From the people of Musa (a) is a course/way (singular) that guide (plural) by the truth. And we split them into twelve branches as courses/ways..." suggests that there is unity of the Twelve. Typically this is not allowed in grammar but we see this usage in Quran quite a bit.

(2) We see similarly in 5:12, the term is a singular Captain, much like 5:55 uses a singular Wali. This suggests their Welayat and navigating and leading is all one and the same.

(3) We see a weird thing happen with luminaries, the word is doubled "Indeed the number of luminaries with God the day he created the heavens and the earth is twelve Luminary". This doesn't make sense to be about months since months are never one month in any way shape or form. However, we saw the emphasis of the twelve being one way and split into twelve ways out of the people of Musa.

(4) Isa (a) as the Twelfth Branch course is included in "people of Musa" and he is in unity with his predecessors as one course.

(5) Part of the light disbelievers always try to put out is the unity of the Twelve with the founder, this is why Shahr and Shuhr is mentioned and it never makes sense to say "the number of months is twelve months" (repeat the same word). The word repeated is not same, one of them is plural, the other singular, to emphasize disbelievers always try violate the number twelve and this is to emphasize on not a unity of Ahlulbayt but specialize it to one or two people as more special. This dividing between them is hated by God. Seeing the twelve luminaries as single luminary emphasis puts a seal to this issue.

 

[Link]

Avoiding means exactly what every people do. It means Allah announced to them that their Term ended, and a new Messenger and Book is to be followed. Then they resist this, saying our Messenger and Book is the Final and Last one.

Is that really the context? Or is it clearly when they are destroyed literally? I try to keep things clear, clean and simple. To me it means no nation that is warned about their destruction, when their term comes and destruction is written as a finality, can avert it. But Nuh (a) and Salih (a) (others too) all tried to make their people avoid that term. See Surah Nuh for example.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's an interpretation of a scholar.

The first part is not a hadith but an opinion of a scholar. The hadiths you quote don't say the disciples are Captains or Successors. They say are twelve, but where does it say they are Captains or Successors or Imams? As far as I'm aware there are many hadiths about Simon Peter being successor of Isa (a). But like I said, he was successor same with four saffirs were successor to Hasan Al-Askari (a) - not that they were Imams pre-chosen or infallible.

In Arabic, whether Hadith or Quran, Does not Say "Successor". It says "نقيب، وصي، ولي" None of these words means Successor.

The Translation of Successor, is a false Translation in my opinion.

Let me say this:

Ali, is not successor of Muhammad. Ali is a divinely appointed Imam, and Guide after Muhammad.

A "Successor" means, a person who comes in place of the previous one. Ali did not replace Muhammad, for Ali was an Imam, but Muhammad was a Rasool, a Nabi. Hence when Shias are using the Term Successorship, they have been just wrong.

Consider a King. When a King died, and if his son became the nexr king, it is correct to say, his son was his Successor.
But when a Manifestation of God (a Messenger who is Founder), passes away, No one is His Successor. But, after the Messenger, God appoints Leaders. These Leaders are not of the same station as the Messenger.

When Jesus died on the cross, the Leaders after Him were twelve. They were called apostles of Jesus. Simple as that.

 

[Link]

You've shown more reasons why Bahai concept of Manifestation doesn't make sense. That's all. The word warith (inheritor) as well other words implying successorship in Arabic have all been used.

Also, you know I believe per Quran Imams (a) were Non-Nabi Messengers (a) and have shown in a Ziyarat of Imam Ali (a), Imam Ali (a) being called a Messenger. This is getting to be a headache.

How about we wrap up. I'll make my final post about this issue and you can conclude. Else we going in all over the place.

 

[Link]

Salam

The biggest problem with Quran is how people do not let it interpret itself. If you let the verses contextualize each other, for example, you let the verses about past succession: https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...es-about-succession-before-mohammad-s.273036/

Contextualize each other as well as verses to do with Mohammad's (s) successors and family, everything becomes easy in the Quran.

The disciples of Isa (a) are talked about in the Quran but they are volatile. That is why God emphasizes on them to not disbelieve or they will be punished more then any one from creation, after being given food from heaven.

The Ulul-Amr however are not compared to volatile people but to the Ahlulbayt (a) of Ibrahim (a) and by flow are obviously the family of Mohammad (s).

The Quran is multidimensional approach. It talks about the twelve and ahlulbayts in inductive way, to see that the religion has been basically the same thing in all times. It changes a bit but the general foundational structure and method of God is pretty constant.

I tried to appeal to verses talking about the unity of the Twelve including Isa (a) in the people of Musa (a) but aside from these, I've gone through some proofs showing the unity of the station of the family of Mohammad (s) with Mohammad (s) in another thread. https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...e-equal-to-one-another-in-status-rank.275493/

Messages between Messengers are constant. Nubuwa is always a miracle and proof from God though yes Quran is said to the best form of that.

What set Mohammad (s) out is his struggle in God's way. His constant effort. That is part of his personality and leadership is linked to all that. How you strive to lead humanity.

His exceling other Prophets (a) is not due anything novel he said, the Quran says, Mohammad (s) says what all Messengers say, this is not the issue.

It's how he lead, it's the striving, the personality, and the incredible effort he put. Now, Mohammad (s) being Ahmad (most praised) and the Ahmad being Mohmmad (praised without negation) interprets itself that he reached a stage that for creation, as it's praised as it can get. Three of the successors of Mohammad (s) were named with the same name. Imam Ali (a) says "the first of us is Mohammad, the middle of us is Mohammad, the last of us is Mohammad and all of us are Mohammad".

There is hadith from Al-Kafi that highlights that aside from family of Mohammad "(s) being compared to Messengers sent to Bani-Israel after Musa (a) with what people did not like, they were not just a Messenger, but "a Mohammad".

However, despite the caliber of Mohammad (s) being much higher and his family much higher, it's always been the case since Adam (a) till now, that humanity has leaders from God.

Leadership is important and God wants people to come to the leader he appointed. Mohammad (s) superiority to other prophets won't shine in the message as they all the say same thing nor is it the Quran that makes him superior as that is from God and not his words nor writing, but really, it's in his leadership.

But leadership outwardly can only do so much, and so more than that, the family of Mohammad (s) per Quran are the brightest lights. Many Jinn came to Islam after the heavenly realm was augmented not to allow intrusion and which they realized the heavenly realm must be power from God.

The Ahlulbayt (a) were guaranteed something other Ahlulbayts were not, and that is the reminder (Written/Quran) they work with would be safeguarded by God.

This means they have to strive to compliment in which they did in many dimensions and ways.

I've shown a clean definition of an Ahlulbayt and Ulul-Arham, and Qurba and Dul-Qurba, etc, that safeguards that Imam Mahdi (a) is the son of Hassan Al-Askari (a).

The hadiths also numerous in that they name all Twelve names along with him being son of Hasan Al-Askari (a) which is in context of others being born out of the preceding Imam.

There is no current Imam in Bahai Faith and no twelve successors so then @InvestigateTruth tries to down play Imamate and even give it to the disciples of Isa (a).

I suggest looking up how Quran uses the term Imam, and let people see who God wants for to be leaders of mankind.

Per hadiths, the "light" that disbelievers always try to put out is "the leadership" or "Welayat Ali" (both hadiths exist).

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

The biggest problem with Quran is how people do not let it interpret itself. If you let the verses contextualize each other, for example, you let the verses about past succession: A collection of verses about succession before Mohammad (s).

Contextualize each other as well as verses to do with Mohammad's (s) successors and family, everything becomes easy in the Quran.

The disciples of Isa (a) are talked about in the Quran but they are volatile. That is why God emphasizes on them to not disbelieve or they will be punished more then any one from creation, after being given food from heaven.

The Ulul-Amr however are not compared to volatile people but to the Ahlulbayt (a) of Ibrahim (a) and by flow are obviously the family of Mohammad (s).

The Quran is multidimensional approach. It talks about the twelve and ahlulbayts in inductive way, to see that the religion has been basically the same thing in all times. It changes a bit but the general foundational structure and method of God is pretty constant.

I tried to appeal to verses talking about the unity of the Twelve including Isa (a) in the people of Musa (a) but aside from these, I've gone through some proofs showing the unity of the station of the family of Mohammad (s) with Mohammad (s) in another thread. The family of Mohammad (s) are equal to one another in status/rank.

Messages between Messengers are constant. Nubuwa is always a miracle and proof from God though yes Quran is said to the best form of that.

What set Mohammad (s) out is his struggle in God's way. His constant effort. That is part of his personality and leadership is linked to all that. How you strive to lead humanity.

His exceling other Prophets (a) is not due anything novel he said, the Quran says, Mohammad (s) says what all Messengers say, this is not the issue.

It's how he lead, it's the striving, the personality, and the incredible effort he put. Now, Mohammad (s) being Ahmad (most praised) and the Ahmad being Mohmmad (praised without negation) interprets itself that he reached a stage that for creation, as it's praised as it can get. Three of the successors of Mohammad (s) were named with the same name. Imam Ali (a) says "the first of us is Mohammad, the middle of us is Mohammad, the last of us is Mohammad and all of us are Mohammad".

There is hadith from Al-Kafi that highlights that aside from family of Mohammad "(s) being compared to Messengers sent to Bani-Israel after Musa (a) with what people did not like, they were not just a Messenger, but "a Mohammad".

However, despite the caliber of Mohammad (s) being much higher and his family much higher, it's always been the case since Adam (a) till now, that humanity has leaders from God.

Leadership is important and God wants people to come to the leader he appointed. Mohammad (s) superiority to other prophets won't shine in the message as they all the say same thing nor is it the Quran that makes him superior as that is from God and not his words nor writing, but really, it's in his leadership.

But leadership outwardly can only do so much, and so more than that, the family of Mohammad (s) per Quran are the brightest lights. Many Jinn came to Islam after the heavenly realm was augmented not to allow intrusion and which they realized the heavenly realm must be power from God.

The Ahlulbayt (a) were guaranteed something other Ahlulbayts were not, and that is the reminder (Written/Quran) they work with would be safeguarded by God.

This means they have to strive to compliment in which they did in many dimensions and ways.

I've shown a clean definition of an Ahlulbayt and Ulul-Arham, and Qurba and Dul-Qurba, etc, that safeguards that Imam Mahdi (a) is the son of Hassan Al-Askari (a).

The hadiths also numerous in that they name all Twelve names along with him being son of Hasan Al-Askari (a) which is in context of others being born out of the preceding Imam.

There is no current Imam in Bahai Faith and no twelve successors so then @InvestigateTruth tries to down play Imamate and even give it to the disciples of Isa (a).

I suggest looking up how Quran uses the term Imam, and let people see who God wants for to be leaders of mankind.

Per hadiths, the "light" that disbelievers always try to put out is "the leadership" or "Welayat Ali" (both hadiths exist).

You are making rules based on Shia understanding of Religion.
Our reference is the Quran and Hadithes.

فَضَحِك رَسُول اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَقَالَ الدَّم الدَّم الْهدم الْهدم إِنِّي مِنْكُم وَأَنْتُم مني أسالم من سَالَمْتُمْ وأحارب من حَارَبْتُمْ ثمَّ قَالَ لَهُم رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ابْعَثُوا إِلَى مِنْكُم اثنى عشر نَقِيبًا كفلا على قَومهمْ بِمَا كَانَ مِنْهُم ككفالة الحواريين بِعِيسَى بْن مَرْيَم

الثقات - ابن حبان - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

In this Hadith from Muhammad, the apostles of Jesus are called the 12 Captains, who were made responsible for the people of Jesus. Same word "نقيب" is used for them as well.

The purpose of the Captains is to be guide for the people. It is not about Ruling. If it was so, Imams of Shia would have ruled. None of them really did. All of them were martyred.
The main mission of Imams of Shia was to interpret Quran, and explain Islam correctly to people. That took upto the year 260 AH. For Christians, the disciples completed their mission and privided the Scriptures and the Gospels. There was no need that one comes after another one like Islam. Whether the 12 come one after another, or all at the same time, is due to requirements of the time and conditions. This is as per God's wisdom and planning. There is no specific rules that would be followed every time. Notice, after Moses there came many Nabis. But after Muhammad there were Imams. So, it is not like every time, God does things the same way.

 

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You are making rules based on Shia understanding of Religion.
Our reference is the Quran and Hadithes.

فَضَحِك رَسُول اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَقَالَ الدَّم الدَّم الْهدم الْهدم إِنِّي مِنْكُم وَأَنْتُم مني أسالم من سَالَمْتُمْ وأحارب من حَارَبْتُمْ ثمَّ قَالَ لَهُم رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ابْعَثُوا إِلَى مِنْكُم اثنى عشر نَقِيبًا كفلا على قَومهمْ بِمَا كَانَ مِنْهُم ككفالة الحواريين بِعِيسَى بْن مَرْيَم

The Messenger of God (s) laughed "their (family of Mohammad) blood is my blood, their harm is my harm, I am from you and you are from me - I am at peace with who you are at peace with and at war with who you are war with then the Messenger of God (s) God has raised from you Twelve Captains guardians over their people with like the guardianship of the disciples by Isa son of Mariam"

I see how you can interpret like you said that the comparison is to disciples, but it can also be interpreted that their guardianship over people is compared with the guardianship of Jesus (a) with the disciples, and that they are each guardians over their people same way Jesus (a) was guardian over the disciples.

No where does it call the disciples Naqeebs or Imams or Awsiya.

I know you can always think of alternative meanings.

The problem with your interpretation is that there many hadiths that "twelve Captains" are with each Prophet and Messenger. If Yahya (a) twelve is his predecessors + Jesus (a), then it follows Jesus (a) twelve Captains are his predecessors. If you add disciples as Captains it becomes more then Twelve.

Anyways, we both shown our views. I just wanted to translate because what you are saying is not necessarily there in the Arabic.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Is that really the context? Or is it clearly when they are destroyed literally? I try to keep things clear, clean and simple. To me it means no nation that is warned about their destruction, when their term comes and destruction is written as a finality, can avert it. But Nuh (a) and Salih (a) (others too) all tried to make their people avoid that term. See Surah Nuh for example.

Yes, it also means as you say.

See the context of the verses:

وَلِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَجَلࣱۖ فَإِذَا جَاۤءَ أَجَلُهُمۡ لَا یَسۡتَأۡخِرُونَ سَاعَةࣰ وَلَا یَسۡتَقۡدِمُونَ
یَـٰبَنِیۤ ءَادَمَ إِمَّا یَأۡتِیَنَّكُمۡ رُسُلࣱ مِّنكُمۡ یَقُصُّونَ عَلَیۡكُمۡ ءَایَـٰتِی فَمَنِ ٱتَّقَىٰ وَأَصۡلَحَ فَلَا خَوۡفٌ عَلَیۡهِمۡ وَلَا هُمۡ یَحۡزَنُونَ
7:34-35


"And for all people a specified term (lifespan) is set. So when the end of their time comes, they can neither delay it by a single moment, nor can they hasten it.
O children of Adam, verily Messengers from among you shall come unto you, who shall expound my signs unto you: Whosoever therefore shall fear God and amend, there shall come no fear on them, neither shall they be grieved"

Notice right after reminding that every people has an end, it also reminds that, Messengers shall come...

What connection it there between End of an Ummah, and reminding that Messngers shall come?

Again in another Surrah:


مَا تَسۡبِقُ مِنۡ أُمَّةٍ أَجَلَهَا وَمَا یَسۡتَءۡخِرُونَ
ثُمَّ أَرۡسَلۡنَا رُسُلَنَا تَتۡرَاۖ كُلَّ مَا جَاۤءَ أُمَّةࣰ رَّسُولُهَا كَذَّبُوهُۖ فَأَتۡبَعۡنَا بَعۡضَهُم بَعۡضࣰا وَجَعَلۡنَـٰهُمۡ أَحَادِیثَۚ فَبُعۡدࣰا لِّقَوۡمࣲ لَّا یُؤۡمِنُونَ

"No people (Ummah) can advance their doom, nor can they delay it.
Then We sent our messengers in succession: every time there came to a people (ummah) their messenger, they accused him of falsehood: so We made them follow each other (in punishment): We made them as a tale (that is told): So away with a people that will not believe"

23:42-43



Every Ummah has an end, meaning, and when their End comes, they cannot delay it. Then next verse says, End of Every Ummah is announced by the next Messenger, and because every Ummah rejects their Messenger, they are destroyed.
How were Jews received destruction after they rejected Jesus? The same happens to people of Muhammad.




وَیَسۡتَعۡجِلُونَكَ بِٱلۡعَذَابِ وَلَن یُخۡلِفَ ٱللَّهُ وَعۡدَهُۥۚ وَإِنَّ یَوۡمًا عِندَ رَبِّكَ كَأَلۡفِ سَنَةࣲ مِّمَّا تَعُدُّونَ

They challenge you ˹O Prophet˺ to hasten the torment. And Allah will never fail in His promise. But a day with your Lord is indeed like a thousand years by your counting.
How many a city I have respited in its evildoing; then I seized it, and to Me was the homecoming.
22:47-48


Notice, how it is clearly saying, the End Time, or Ajal (اجل) of Ummah comes in 1000 years. So, we are in that period and this why you see how Islam Nations are getting destroyed! At the End of the 1000 year, Messenger of Ummah (the Qaim) must have already come. Then since they rejected Him, therefore God is giving them the punishment!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Messenger of God (s) laughed "their (family of Mohammad) blood is my blood, their harm is my harm, I am from you and you are from me - I am at peace with who you are at peace with and at war with who you are war with then the Messenger of God (s) God has raised from you Twelve Captains guardians over their people with like the guardianship of the disciples by Isa son of Mariam"

I see how you can interpret like you said that the comparison is to disciples, but it can also be interpreted that their guardianship over people is compared with the guardianship of Jesus (a) with the disciples, and that they are each guardians over their people same way Jesus (a) was guardian over the disciples.

No where does it call the disciples Naqeebs or Imams or Awsiya.

I know you can always think of alternative meanings.

The problem with your interpretation is that there many hadiths that "twelve Captains" are with each Prophet and Messenger. If Yahya (a) twelve is his predecessors + Jesus (a), then it follows Jesus (a) twelve Captains are his predecessors. If you add disciples as Captains it becomes more then Twelve.

Anyways, we both shown our views. I just wanted to translate because what you are saying is not necessarily there in the Arabic.

There has been many prophets between Moses and Jesus. Much more than 12.

It is not like every prophet after Moses is counted as one of the 12 Captains of Moses.
You can see for yourself:

Prophets and messengers in Islam - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Beside this, here is the list of twelve Prophets of Jews:

Twelve Prophets of Aleijadinho - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But the Jews have 12 Tribes. Each Tribe had a Leader. Here you can find their names:

Twelve Tribes of Israel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

in Quran, Jesus is an independent Messenger, with a different Revelation than Moses. He is the Messiah of Jews, not one of the successors of Moses.

You are thinking that Jesus is counted as one of the Captains of Moses.

Can you show a single Hadith or verse of the Quran that Jesus is one the Captains of Moses?
You need to prove your ideas based on Hadithes and the Quran.
Is there a Hadith that lists name of twelve Captains of Moses?

 

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Salam

I think I've proven my case through the Quran (and many hadiths verify). I'll let you have the last words.