The 12 Successors to Mohammad (s) in Quran and the Mahdi being the 12th Successor.

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From Ibn Abbas who said, I heard Prophet Muhammad (saww) say, "O the Muslim community, know that for Allah (swt) there is a door, whoever enters it, is save from the fire and from the greatest fear."

Then Abu Saeed Al-Khudhri stood up and said, "O Messenger of Allah (swt), Guide us towards this door such that we know it."

Prophet Muhammad (saww) said, "He is Ali ibn Abi Talib (as), the Master of the Guardians and Amir Al-Momineen and the brother of the Messenger of Allah (swt), and His successor over all the creations."

"O People, the one who wishes that he holds on to the strong rope which does not break/separate, then he should hold on-to the Wilayah of Ali bin Abi Talib (as). Because His Wilayah is My Wilayah, and his obedience is My obedience."

"O People, the one who wishes that he recognizes the Hujjah (proof) after Me, then he should recognize Ali bin Abi Talib (as)."

"O People, the one who is pleased that he befriends the Wilayah of Allah (swt), then he should Hold on to Ali ibn Abi Talib (as), because He is keeper of My knowledge."

"O People, the one who wishes that he meets Allah (swt) while Allah (swt) is pleased with him, Then he should believe in Wilayah of number of Imam’s (as)."

Then Jabin bin Abdullah stood up and said, “And what is the Number of the Imam’s (as)?”

Prophet Muhammad (saww) said, “O Jabir, You asked me, Allah (swt) have mercy upon you. For Islam with its entirety, the number of Imam’s (as) is the number of luminaries/months and this is near (in sight of) Allah (swt) twelve luminaries/months in the book of Allah (swt) on the day of the creation of the skies and the earth. [9:36]

And the number of the Imam’s (as) is the number of springs that gushed forth for Musa bin Imran (as) when He struck the sea with his staff and gushed forth from it twelve springs. [2:60] And the number of the Imam’s (as) is the number of Captains of Bani Israeel. Allah (swt) says, "Allah did take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve Captains among them.” [5:12]. And the Imam’s (as) O Jabir, the first of them is Ali bin Abi Talib (as) and the last of them is Al-Qaim (atfs), blessings be upon them all.

[Source: Irshaad Al-Quloob, Vol. 2, Pg. 261]


From Prophet Muhammad (saww), "Will happen in my ummah like what was in bani israeel..... And among them were twelve Captains. Allah (swt) has said, "And we appointed twelve Captains among them.." [5:12]

[Source: Al-Manaqib - Ibn Shahr Ashoob, Vol. 1, Pg. 300]


@InvestigateTruth these hadiths suggest the verses mentioned imply there will be Twelve Imams (a). Do you agree or disagree?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes

From Ibn Abbas who said, I heard Prophet Muhammad (saww) say, "O the Muslim community, know that for Allah (swt) there is a door, whoever enters it, is save from the fire and from the greatest fear."

Then Abu Saeed Al-Khudhri stood up and said, "O Messenger of Allah (swt), Guide us towards this door such that we know it."

Prophet Muhammad (saww) said, "He is Ali ibn Abi Talib (as), the Master of the Guardians and Amir Al-Momineen and the brother of the Messenger of Allah (swt), and His successor over all the creations."

"O People, the one who wishes that he holds on to the strong rope which does not break/separate, then he should hold on-to the Wilayah of Ali bin Abi Talib (as). Because His Wilayah is My Wilayah, and his obedience is My obedience."

"O People, the one who wishes that he recognizes the Hujjah (proof) after Me, then he should recognize Ali bin Abi Talib (as)."

"O People, the one who is pleased that he befriends the Wilayah of Allah (swt), then he should Hold on to Ali ibn Abi Talib (as), because He is keeper of My knowledge."

"O People, the one who wishes that he meets Allah (swt) while Allah (swt) is pleased with him, Then he should believe in Wilayah of number of Imam’s (as)."

Then Jabin bin Abdullah stood up and said, “And what is the Number of the Imam’s (as)?”

Prophet Muhammad (saww) said, “O Jabir, You asked me, Allah (swt) have mercy upon you. For Islam with its entirety, the number of Imam’s (as) is the number of luminaries/months and this is near (in sight of) Allah (swt) twelve luminaries/months in the book of Allah (swt) on the day of the creation of the skies and the earth. [9:36]

And the number of the Imam’s (as) is the number of springs that gushed forth for Musa bin Imran (as) when He struck the sea with his staff and gushed forth from it twelve springs. [2:60] And the number of the Imam’s (as) is the number of Captains of Bani Israeel. Allah (swt) says, "Allah did take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve Captains among them.” [5:12]. And the Imam’s (as) O Jabir, the first of them is Ali bin Abi Talib (as) and the last of them is Al-Qaim (atfs), blessings be upon them all.

[Source: Irshaad Al-Quloob, Vol. 2, Pg. 261]


From Prophet Muhammad (saww), "Will happen in my ummah like what was in bani israeel..... And among them were twelve Captains. Allah (swt) has said, "And we appointed twelve Captains among them.." [5:12]

[Source: Al-Manaqib - Ibn Shahr Ashoob, Vol. 1, Pg. 300]


@InvestigateTruth these hadiths suggest the verses mentioned imply there will be Twelve Imams (a). Do you agree or disagree?

Yes, in Islam there are 12 appointed Imams. The 11th one was passed away in year 260Ah, and the 12th one was to appear 1000 years after (year 1260 Ah)

 

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Yes, in Islam there are 12 appointed Imams. The 11th one was passed away in year 260Ah, and the 12th one was to appear 1000 years after (year 1260 Ah)

Since the Prophet (s) says Islam it's entirety has 12 Imams my question to you, who is the 12 Imams after your founder (whoever it maybe, Bab or Baha;allah)?

This means Adam (a) had twelve successors. Ibrahim (a) had twelve successors. Musa (a) had twelve successors. It's always twelve.

Who are the twelve for Bahai Faith?

 

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Meh, let me predict answer:

24 representatives because of more need now.

Some replies:

(1) The term is for succession one taking the position of leadership after another, not for during life time.
(2) For that, bahais have only Abdul Baha and Shokh Efendi.
(3) The consistency would be wiser of God than making twenty four and trying us by that or making 3 especially since has been consistent since Adam (a) till now with that twelve.

Some brief reply to Bab as the Twelfth successor.

(1) He can't be Ulul-Arham, because his kinship would be too far off, so would not be part of the Ahlulbayt. See the posts in that regard.
(2) The Bab has Baha'allah succeeding him quickly, so he is more associated with him, then with Imams (a), so why is Bab Ahlulbayt said to be Mohammmad's (a) and not the ones in quick succession to him? This breaks the definition of Ahlulbayt two ways.
(3) Who was Isa's (a) Ahlulbayt per your understanding? To me, it's his predecessors including Musa (a), they are the Twelve Captains with him. Why am I saying this? Because it's a very confusing definition now with the Bab being succeeded by Baha'allah and preceded by Imam Hassan Al-Askari (a), who's his Twelve Captains? Seems Baha'allah would be one of his Captains associated with him, but if you count the twelve before him, that makes more then Twelve. So the consistency is broken and which Ahlulbayt he belongs to is confusing. All this is not the way God does it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Since the Prophet (s) says Islam it's entirety has 12 Imams my question to you, who is the 12 Imams after your founder (whoever it maybe, Bab or Baha;allah)?

This means Adam (a) had twelve successors. Ibrahim (a) had twelve successors. Musa (a) had twelve successors. It's always twelve.

Who are the twelve for Bahai Faith?

It cannot be any more clear, that the answer is None other than the Bab:

In the official residence, and in the presence, of the governor of Ádhirbayján, Násiri'd-Dín Mírzá, the heir to the throne; under the presidency of Hájí Mullá Mahmúd, the Nizámu'l-`Ulamá, the Prince's tutor; before the assembled ecclesiastical dignitaries of Tabríz, the leaders of the Shaykhí community, the Shaykhu'l-Islám, and the Imám-Jum'ih, the Báb, having seated Himself in the chief place which had been reserved for the Valí-`Ahd (the heir to the throne), gave, in ringing tones, His celebrated answer to the question put to Him by the President of that assembly. "I am," He exclaimed, "I am, I am the Promised One! I am the One Whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at Whose mention you have risen, Whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of Whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten.

Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, pgs. 21-25

 

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It cannot be any more clear, that the answer is None other than the Bab:

In the official residence, and in the presence, of the governor of Ádhirbayján, Násiri'd-Dín Mírzá, the heir to the throne; under the presidency of Hájí Mullá Mahmúd, the Nizámu'l-`Ulamá, the Prince's tutor; before the assembled ecclesiastical dignitaries of Tabríz, the leaders of the Shaykhí community, the Shaykhu'l-Islám, and the Imám-Jum'ih, the Báb, having seated Himself in the chief place which had been reserved for the Valí-`Ahd (the heir to the throne), gave, in ringing tones, His celebrated answer to the question put to Him by the President of that assembly. "I am," He exclaimed, "I am, I am the Promised One! I am the One Whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at Whose mention you have risen, Whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of Whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten.

Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, pgs. 21-25

Who are the twelve to succeeded your founder?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Meh, let me predict answer:

24 representatives because of more need now.

Some replies:

(1) The term is for succession one taking the position of leadership after another, not for during life time.
(2) For that, bahais have only Abdul Baha and Shokh Efendi.
(3) The consistency would be wiser of God than making twenty four and trying us by that or making 3 especially since has been consistent since Adam (a) till now with that twelve.

Some brief reply to Bab as the Twelfth successor.

(1) He can't be Ulul-Arham, because his kinship would be too far off, so would not be part of the Ahlulbayt. See the posts in that regard.
(2) The Bab has Baha'allah succeeding him quickly, so he is more associated with him, then with Imams (a), so why is Bab Ahlulbayt said to be Mohammmad's (a) and not the ones in quick succession to him? This breaks the definition of Ahlulbayt two ways.
(3) Who was Isa's (a) Ahlulbayt per your understanding? To me, it's his predecessors including Musa (a), they are the Twelve Captains with him. Why am I saying this? Because it's a very confusing definition now with the Bab being succeeded by Baha'allah and preceded by Imam Hassan Al-Askari (a), who's his Twelve Captains? Seems Baha'allah would be one of his Captains associated with him, but if you count the twelve before him, that makes more then Twelve. So the consistency is broken and which Ahlulbayt he belongs to is confusing. All this is not the way God does it.

Sorry, I thought you mean, who is the 12th Imam in Islam, in Bahai belief.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Who are the twelve to succeeded your founder?

To answer the question I have to explain a couple of things.
the twelve, men that appeared in each Faith in the past, are not always successors. In Islam, they are known as Khalifs. But, the idea is, in every Dispensation, God raised 12 men, as helpers of the faith. For example, the 12 apostles of Jesus, are not successors in the way, Imams are, in Islam.

Also the Bahai Faith refers to the Prophecy of the Bible (Not only the Quran, and Hadith.)

But I will also show evidence from the Quran after this.

First the Bible prophecy. In the Bible, in the Book of Revelation it was prophesied that, when the Judgement Day, or the End Time comes, this will happen:


“And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, saying, We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.”

Rev. 11:16


Abdulbaha, who is the first Leader after Baha'u'llah, and is the Infallible interpreter in Bahai Faith, has interpreted the Bible verse as follows:

" In every Dispensation there have been twelve chosen ones: In the time of Joseph there were twelve brothers; in the time of Moses there were twelve heads or chiefs of the tribes; in the time of Christ there were twelve Apostles; and in the time of Muḥammad there were twelve Imáms. But in this glorious Revelation there are twenty-four such souls, double the number of all the others, for so does its greatness require. "

https://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/abdul-baha/some-answered-questions/some-answered-questions.xhtml?aaa5e151#605135274

Abdulbaha says, since this new Revelation is a greater mission, God now has given 24, instead of 12.

Now, there are some hints in the Quran.

"It is overseen by nineteen ˹keepers˺. We have appointed only angels to be wardens of the Fire, and their number have We made to be a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve; that those to whom the Scripture hath been given may have certainty, and that believers may increase in faith; and that those to whom the Scripture hath been given and believers may not doubt; and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude? Thus Allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals" Quran 74:30-31

In Bahai Faith number 19, is a meaningful number. For example the number of Months in a year is 19, and each month has 19 Days. The Book of the Bab has 19 chapter, and each chapter has 19 sections.

The first Helpers of the Bab, were 18 and with the Bab Himslef, total 19. This is what the Quran verse 74:30-31 is hinting. It is giving a sign for recognition of the New Faith, that will be established by the Qaim. The number of Angels are 19, this is the Bab, and the 18 apostles of the Bab, known as Latters of Living: Letters of the Living - Wikipedia

As regards to the 24 Elderly, this is what Shoghi Effendi has written:

"Regarding the four and twenty elders: The Master, in a Tablet, stated that they are the Báb, the 18 Letters of the Living and five others who would be known in the future. So far we do not know who these five others are."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, July 22, 1943: Bahá’í News, No. 171, November 1944, p. 2, in Lights of Guidance, no. 1713)

 

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Salam

See post #24.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

See post #24.

There was the first creation and then later creation after that. This is clearly stated in the Quran.
First creation started with Adam, and continued for 6000 years. This is called the Adamic Cycle. A new Cycle has begun with the Baha'u'llah being the first Manifestation. In the same way that Adam waa the first Manifestation of the first creation, Baha'u'llah is the first Manifestation of the New Creation.

The Laws and the Way God does in the new Cycle of creation is different in some ways.

See my post#28, and specially the verse
In the past, with any Manifestation, there was twelve souls to help with the Faith of God. For example, Jesus had twelve Apostles, known as Hawwarioun.
But in the new cycle of creation, and specially in Bahai Faith, it is now 24 Souls. Look at my previous posts.

What I posted, was based on Bible and the Quran.

See post #28, and specially Quran 74:30-31.

What does Allah mean by the similitude in verse 74:30-31 ?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Meh, let me predict answer:

24 representatives because of more need now.

Some replies:

(1) The term is for succession one taking the position of leadership after another, not for during life time.

In the Quran, there is nothing that suggests, the term is always for succession.
For example in case of Bani Isreal, the tem is نقيب. Which means Leader or Captain. A leader or Captain can come either at the same time, before or after.

 

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Salam

I've made a thread in Shiite Islam section about a collection of verses about succession in the past. The context of the verses about the subject do show the leadership is taken one by one - succession is the context.

A collection of verses about succession before Mohammad (s).

I will comment on these, since, some of them are not as obvious. (1) وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ وَقَفَّيْنَا مِنْ بَعْدِهِ بِالرُّسُلِ ۖ وَآتَيْنَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَيَّدْنَاهُ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ ۗ أَفَكُلَّمَا جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ بِمَا لَا تَهْوَىٰ أَنْفُسُكُمُ...

www.religiousforums.com

You can then put it with verses about current succession as well, and all these contextualize each other. The Twelve Captains and covenant in this respect is about succession.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

I've made a thread in Shiite Islam section about a collection of verses about succession in the past. The context of the verses about the subject do show the leadership is taken one by one - succession is the context.

A collection of verses about succession before Mohammad (s).

I will comment on these, since, some of them are not as obvious. (1) وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ وَقَفَّيْنَا مِنْ بَعْدِهِ بِالرُّسُلِ ۖ وَآتَيْنَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَيَّدْنَاهُ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ ۗ أَفَكُلَّمَا جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ بِمَا لَا تَهْوَىٰ أَنْفُسُكُمُ...

www.religiousforums.com

You can then put it with verses about current succession as well, and all these contextualize each other. The Twelve Captains and covenant in this respect is about succession.

Which Prophets have successors? Do all Prophets have successors?
Are all Ulul-Azm Prophets have successors?

For example, did Elijah have 12 successors? Did John the Baptist have 12 successors?
If not, why Moses have 12 captains, but Jesus does not have twelve captains?

 

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Salam

(1) Most prophets are succeeded by prophets. Mohammad is the exception really to this rule.

(2) The twelve with each Prophet or Messenger are those closely tied with them in terms their mission is tied and their revelations build on each other.

(3) only the founder is succeeded by twelve captains.

(4) the captains with Yahya (a) are his predecessors including Musa (a) and his successor Isa (a). Elyas (a) is both a predecessor of Isa (a) and successor.

(5) Isa (a) is twelfth successor if he had his own twelve successors which Ahlulbayt would be his? I am claiming he belongs to the family of Moses and Aaron.

To iterate point the family of David (a) is predecessors including Aaron and Moses (upon them both peace) and his successors including Sulaiman (a) and Isa (a). As far as leaders/captains go, there are twelve with him.

(6) A chosen family ascend together and were before coming to this world together. Different Houses have different ranks yet within a house they are one in ascending rank and place with God. The “with” means they are together in the journey.

(7) the family with Ayub (a) are twelve leaders and the chosen ladies of his family, and the other families like them are other chosen Ahlulbayts that helped him in his affliction as well.

(8) Isa (a) ahlulbayt is his predecessors but Simon (a) leadership is like the four Safirs leadership. Elyas (a) was the sword of God and spirit of truth from God till Mohammad (s) but Simon was succeeded by fallible leaders just like the fourth Safir. The leaders succeeding Simon (a) are volatile and can go astray but they were meant to hold the flag till Mohammad (a) and connect Musa (a) all the way Isa (a) leaders spiritually and Elyas (a) was to meet in secret and show miracles if a soul was ready for that lifestyle.

(8) Simon (a) is selected by God and Isa (a) in this world but he is not chosen by God before coming to this world. He is not like a Prophet or Imam but a successor in general leadership sense

(9) Church went astray same can happen with leadership of scholars after 4 Saffeers.

(10) Governing is to be done by most knowledgeable how to choose and know a person is just and highly knowledgeable is a good topic and coveted by

 

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Lastly an ahlulbayt succeeds another ahlulbayt.

 

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Lastly an ahlulbayt succeeds another ahlulbayt.

But each ahlulbayt have a founder followed by twelve successors.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But each ahlulbayt have a founder followed by twelve successors.

Is not Jesus a Founder?
The Founders are those who have a new Revelation and brought a new Law. Jesus brought Injil.


Then according to you, there must be 12 successors after Jesus. Which is not in the way you are thinking. Jesus had 12 apostles at the same time.


Jesus is not a promoter of Moses. He abrogated Moses Law. For example, Moses brought covenant of Sabath. Jesus broke Sabath Law.

none of the other Prophets after Moses broke any of the Laws of Torah. That's what Quran says. 3:49-50


"And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me."

Beside this, what about Zoroaster? What about Budha? What about Krishna?

If you are thinking that it has to with being biologically related, then Muhammad is related to Abraham through Ismael, so, according to your view, Muhammad must be one of the 12 successors of Abraham. Dude, I don't know where you get your ideas? Did you go to Shia School? I am guessing this is what they teach.

 

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Changing laws is not founding a nation. Isa is part of Auli Imran and Imran links back to Musa. You are overcomplicating a simple concept. Isa succeeded and followed on steps of successors of Musa.

The laws that he changed mostly had to do with the fact that Bani Israel no longer had chosen guides among them.

We also believe some things are obligatory with Imams in public otherwise not including Friday prayers. They become optional in absence of a guide from God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Changing laws is not founding a nation. Isa is part of Auli Imran and Imran links back to Musa. You are overcomplicating a simple concept. Isa succeeded and followed on steps of successors of Musa.

The laws that he changed mostly had to do with the fact that Bani Israel no longer had chosen guides among them.

We also believe some things are obligatory with Imams in public otherwise not including Friday prayers. They become optional in absence of a guide from God.

Quran distinguishes between Jews and Christians. Jews and Nasaries. يهود و نصاري

In Hadithes also, they are known as two different Ummahs.



حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْعَزِيزِ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي إِبْرَاهِيمُ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، عَنْ سَالِمِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، أَنَّهُ أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّهُ، سَمِعَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ إِنَّمَا بَقَاؤُكُمْ فِيمَا سَلَفَ قَبْلَكُمْ مِنَ الأُمَمِ كَمَا بَيْنَ صَلاَةِ الْعَصْرِ إِلَى غُرُوبِ الشَّمْسِ، أُوتِيَ أَهْلُ التَّوْرَاةِ التَّوْرَاةَ فَعَمِلُوا حَتَّى إِذَا انْتَصَفَ النَّهَارُ عَجَزُوا، فَأُعْطُوا قِيرَاطًا قِيرَاطًا، ثُمَّ أُوتِيَ أَهْلُ الإِنْجِيلِ الإِنْجِيلَ فَعَمِلُوا إِلَى صَلاَةِ الْعَصْرِ، ثُمَّ عَجَزُوا، فَأُعْطُوا قِيرَاطًا قِيرَاطًا

"My father said, "I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, 'The period of your stay as compared to the previous nations is like the period equal to the time between the `Asr prayer and sunset. The people of the Torah were given the Torah and they acted (upon it) till midday then they were exhausted and were given one Qirat (of gold) each. And then the people of the Gospel were given the Gospel and they acted (upon it) till the `Asr prayer then they were exhausted and were! given one Qirat each. And then we were given the Qur'an and we acted (upon it) till sunset and we were given two Qirats each. On that the people of both the scriptures said, 'O our Lord! You have given them two Qirats and given us one Qirat, though we have worked more than they.' Allah said, 'Have I usurped some of your right?' They said, 'No.' Allah said: "That is my blessing I bestow upon whomsoever I wish."

 

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Christianity is a religion that didn’t get things right. Same with Judaism. Otherwise Quran would not say Ibrahim is neither of those. All prophets are risen locally and their people are supposed to spread globally as much as they can.

Jesus (a) prepared the way for Mohammad (s) and his family (a). Isa (a) didn’t appear of no where before him was Yahya (a), before Yahya (a) - Zakariya (a) and before him Imran (a).

You are trying overcomplicate a simple concept and make things messy.