Qur'an 25:53 for paarsurrey

[Kirran]

The origin explanation's refutation would also apply to the infallibility claims. The explanations provided by me can be used to point out the verses are mundane human knowledge thus require no deity to figure out. Human knowledge leads to the conclusion of a human author thus literalism is refuted which would render core Islamic concepts equally mundane.

I don't think necessarily so. It doesn't support it particularly. But I don't think it acts as a refutation. It is to be expected that an infallible document would include some facts that were already known, either as general knowledge or as more specific knowledge.

 

[Shad]

I don't think necessarily so. It doesn't support it particularly. But I don't think it acts as a refutation. It is to be expected that an infallible document would include some facts that were already known, either as general knowledge or as more specific knowledge.

My refutation applies to infallibility if the interpretation provided by others is the actual true interpretation since it proves it wrong. For the interpretation provided by me it render the point of divine revelation moot as anyone can make these statements, and have, without the aid of a deity. Thus placing the text as a product of a human as the more reasonable conclusion.

Lets say the FGM reveled to me that E=MC2. Are you not impressed by the FGM and it's prophet, me, telling you about knowledge already known? Merely repeating knowledge already known is not the sign of revelation, it is a sign of learning of human knowledge already developed before I reveled anything.

 

[Kirran]

My refutation applies to infallibility if the interpretation provided by others is the actual true interpretation since it proves it wrong.

Yes, that's true. If the meaning of this verse being promoted by the 'scientific miracleists' is in fact correct, then this would render the Qur'an a document containing incorrect information, and therefore fallible.

 

[Muffled]

Comprehension can be a difficult thing.

The Qur'an is simply wrong and you WILL NOT find one place it hold true as proclaimed by Allah in the Qur'an. Given the primitive understanding of the time, the passage is perhaps forgivable as it would seem true to folks who had no ability to test the veracity of the claim. Allah, on the other hand, should have known better... if he was a real god.

I believe you are correct but God gives it.

I believe you are incorrect. A correct understanding of the Qu'ran fits most situations. Inland seas (lakes) tend to be fresh water and oceans tend to be salt water and land separates the two. Granted that some lakes are salt but the exceptions don't make the rule.

 

[Muffled]

So certainly, we can refute this being a 'scientific miracle'. But it cannot be used to refute the Qur'an's infallibility?

I believe the question remains. Did God intentionally design it so that there would be bodies of salt water and bodies of fresh water or does that just happen naturally or both.

 

[Kirran]

I believe the question remains. Did God intentionally design it so that there would be bodies of salt water and bodies of fresh water or does that just happen naturally or both.

Well the question here is whether this verse can be used as an argument against the infallibility of the Qur'an.

 

[Shad]

I believe the question remains. Did God intentionally design it so that there would be bodies of salt water and bodies of fresh water or does that just happen naturally or both.

This has little to do with a barrier that is unable to be broken by waters. The verse is making a specific statement that fresh and salt water do not mix according the interpretation supplied by Muslims. There is evidence to the contrary.

 

[Kirran]

All it actually says it that there are two seas, one of which is salty, one of which is sweet, which do not mix due to an obstruction which cannot be violated. So it really isn't saying much in support of the supposed omnipotence and power of Allah, but it's a pretty basic claim. Can't really disagree that there is the Dead Sea and there are seas which are 'sweeter', and that there is land between, and that the seas won't merge.

 

[Kirran]

Would any Muslims like to comment on the meaning of this ayah? If not, maybe we should discuss another verse.

 

[Sakeenah]

Would any Muslims like to comment on the meaning of this ayah? If not, maybe we should discuss another verse.

hi Kirran

I wanted to post the tafsiir (explanation) by an early scholar Ibn Kathir. He is one of the early sunni scholars..so this the explanation of the verse based on the Quran and Sunnah



This is the verse
- وَهُوَ الَّذِى مَرَجَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ هَـذَا عَذْبٌ فُرَاتٌ وَهَـذَا مِلْحٌ أُجَاجٌ وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَهُمَا بَرْزَخاً وَحِجْراً مَّحْجُوراً - ﴾

(53. And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter; and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.)

(And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter means, He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet. Allah has told us about reality so that His servants may realize His blessings to them and give thanks to Him. The sweet water is that which flows amidst people. Allah has portioned it out among His creatures according to their needs; rivers and springs in every land, according to what they need for themselves and their lands.

and that is salty and bitter meaning that it is salty, bitter and not easy to swallow. This is like the seas that are known in the east and the west, the Atlantic Ocean and the Straits that lead to it, the Red Sea, the Arabian Sea, the Persian Gulf, the China Sea, the Indian Ocean, the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea and so on, all the seas that are stable and do not flow, but they swell and surge in the winter and when the winds are strong, and they have tides that ebb and flow. At the beginning of each month the tides ebb and flood, and when the month starts to wane they retreat until they go back to where they started. When the crescent of the following month appears, the tide begins to ebb again until the fourteenth of the month, then it decreases. Allah, may He be glorified, the One Whose power is absolute, has set these laws in motion, so all of these seas are stationary, and He has made their water salty lest the air turn putrid because of them and the whole earth turn rotten as a result, and lest the earth spoil because of the animals dying on it. Because its water is salty, its air is healthy and its dead are good (to eat), hence when the Messenger of Allah was asked whether sea water can be used for Wudu', he said:
(Its water is pure and its dead are lawful.) This was recorded by Malik, Ash-Shafi`i and Ahmad, and by the scholars of Sunan with a good ﴿Jayyid﴾ chain of narration.

and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them. ) meaning, between the sweet water and the saltwater.(a barrier) means a partition, which is dry land.
and a complete partition) means, a barrier, to prevent one of them from reaching the other.
This is like the Ayat: He has let loose the two seas meeting together. Between them is a barrier which none of them can transgress. Then which of the blessings of your Lord will you both deny) (55:19-21)

Is not He Who has made the earth as a fixed abode, and has placed rivers in its midst, and placed firm mountains therein, and set a barrier between the two seas Is there any god with Allah Nay, but most of them know not!) (27:61)

Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The universality of the Prophet's Message, how He was supported in His Mission and Allah's Blessings

 

[paarsurrey]

I give the verse 25:53/54 with the verses in the context, some preceding and some following the same:

[25:49]And He it is Who sends the winds as glad tidings before His mercy, and We send down pure water from the sky,
[25:50]That We may thereby give life to a dead land, and give it for drink to Our creation — cattle and men in great numbers.
[25:51]And We have explained it to them in diverse ways that they may take heed, but most men would reject everything but disbelief.
[25:52]If We had pleased, We could have surely raised a Warner in every city.
[25:53]So obey not the disbelievers and fight against them by means of it (the Qur’an) a great fight.
[25:54]And He it is Who has caused the two seas to flow, this palatable and sweet, and that saltish and bitter; and between them He has placed a barrier and a great partition.
[25:55]And He it is Who has created man from water, and has made for him kindred by descent and kindred by marriage; and thy Lord is All- Powerful.
[25:56]And they worship beside Allah that which can do them no good nor harm them. And the disbeliever is a helperof Satanagainst his Lord.
[25:57]And We have not sent thee but as a bearer of glad tidings and a Warner.
[25:58]Say, ‘I ask of you no recompense for it, save that whoso chooses may take a way unto his Lord.’
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Anybody who wants to understand the verse should understand it from the context verses.
Quran is primarily for ethical, moral and spiritual guidance of human beings; one should read it for that purpose.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

There is a proper way of understanding a verse,that is understanding the verse from the context verses.
The correct approach is to understand a verse/s by using a common sense approach which is generally helpful for understanding any book in the world.
With single verse without the text and the context one could be sometimes carried away.
One cannot correctly understand the meaning of a word unless one knows the whole sentence in which it has been used; the value of a sentence could be best understood in a passage, and of a passage is best understood in a chapter. The reference with the context is therefore most essential for correct understanding.
This helps to understand the verses; hence Quran is self-explanatory.
Please give it a try.
Will you please?
Regards

 

[Shad]

hi Kirran



Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The universality of the Prophet's Message, how He was supported in His Mission and Allah's Blessings

I posted this interpretation but forgot the source of it. Thanks for linking the source for others

 

[paarsurrey]

I posted this interpretation but forgot the source of it. Thanks for linking the source for others

Please try understanding the verse from the context verses.
Regards

 

[Muffled]

There is a proper way of understanding a verse,that is understanding the verse from the context verses.
The correct approach is to understand a verse/s by using a common sense approach which is generally helpful for understanding any book in the world.
With single verse without the text and the context one could be sometimes carried away.
One cannot correctly understand the meaning of a word unless one knows the whole sentence in which it has been used; the value of a sentence could be best understood in a passage, and of a passage is best understood in a chapter. The reference with the context is therefore most essential for correct understanding.
This helps to understand the verses; hence Quran is self-explanatory.
Please give it a try.
Will you please?
Regards

Common sense says that water flows but common sense also says that there is a land barrier between fresh water and salt water. Common sense says that the exception of an estuary does not make the rule.

 

[Shad]

Please try understanding the verse from the context verses.
Regards

The Quran was not put together in strict context ordering. Beside you are arguing against one of the most well known scholars of early Islam without an argument about "context" which you have failed to properly link together.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Quran was not put together in strict context ordering.

You are simply wrong.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The Quran was not put together in strict context ordering. Beside you are arguing against one of the most well known scholars of early Islam without an argument about "context" which you have failed to properly link together.

Earlier scholars were also human beings; we don't have to follow their mistakes.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Following understanding of the verse 25:53/54 is well-justified by the context verses, one may like to read it:

The Holy Quran

Regards

 

[Shad]

Following understanding of the verse 25:53/54 is well-justified by the context verses, one may like to read it:

The Holy Quran

Regards

Part of this explanation has been refuted by chemistry, a flawed understanding is known which can be refuted by a 5 year old as per my video. The land barrier is far more compatible but since this is right along side with the incorrect interpretation your source is just guessing rather than any serious research with chemistry.