Libertarian Socialists Unite!

[Disposable member]

I'm a Libertarian free marketer. I'm very liberal on social issues and pretty conservative on economics. I hope this doesn't dim the views of my friends Lvcifer Invictvs and Shadow Wolf of me.

I've known that you're a capitalist for about as long as I've been here.

 

[Adramelek]

I've known that you're a capitalist for about as long as I've been here.

Yes it is true I am a mild fan of some of Ayn Rand's works.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I've outlined it before, but I'll summarize my stance here.

I believe in freedom from coercion and the use of force; where I differ from right-libertarians is that I include freedom from economic coercion in that. I believe that capitalism is inherently coercive, and wage slavery is still slavery. Natural resources and land should be managed communally, workers should receive the full fruits of their labor, and the means of production should be controlled by the workers and the community.

See, this is where I'm getting really confused on Labels. You summary is very Marxist. You probably won't find any Marxist that would disagree with that. Perhaps disagreements would come from more specific details, but the alienation and exploitation of wage labor is a core position of pretty much every Marxist school of thought, as is communal management of resources and the means of production.

I'm a Libertarian free marketer. I'm very liberal on social issues and pretty conservative on economics. I hope this doesn't dim the views of my friends Lvcifer Invictvs and Shadow Wolf of me.

*SHOCK* *GASP*
We'd be a crappy group of Lefties if we all agreed on everything.

 

[Revoltingest]

Some questions:
Regarding turkey:
- White meat or drumstick?
- Roasted, hong shao, or deep fried?
- Just for Thanxgiving or at least once a week?

For those who oppose capitalism, would you:
- Give government the power to prevent it?
- Give government the power to restrict it more than Americastan does now?
To what extent or in what way?

 

[nazz]

Some questions:
Regarding turkey:
- White meat or drumstick?
- Roasted, hong shao, or deep fried?
- Just for Thanxgiving or at least once a week?

I love turkey! any time, any way!

For those who oppose capitalism, would you:
- Give government the power to prevent it?
- Give government the power to restrict it more than Americastan does now?
To what extent or in what way?

Preferably government would not be involved. Workers would simply band together to take over their respective businesses. But in the interim anything government does that benefits the workforce is good.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Some questions:
Regarding turkey:
- White meat or drumstick?
- Roasted, hong shao, or deep fried?
- Just for Thanxgiving or at least once a week?

For those who oppose capitalism, would you:
- Give government the power to prevent it?
- Give government the power to restrict it more than Americastan does now?
To what extent or in what way?

Ideally, the community would have the power to stop it, and if not the community then labor and other democratic unions, but in many ways I would give the American government to restrict and severally punish those who abuse the system. The Enron guys would never be able to pay off the debts though would owe. BP would be held financially responsible for every last drop of oil spilled. Wal Mart and others could not exploit workers and create unfair environments that drive out small and medium businesses. Unemployment would mean employees remaining on the company's payroll. No one would hold private ownership over resources; trees, water, these are things that cannot and should not be owned. Charging for water would not happen, though there may be limits as too how much people can use (I really wish this existed everywhere because water is too precious to waste). And even if a company was doing business in another country, because it is an American business it would still be under American jurisdiction, American law, and companies that distrupt and exploit communities in other countries would have to end all operations in that area and face heavy consequences.
As for turkey, I like it white and dark, baked and fried, or slices on a sandwich. Not all that often though, as it's abit dry for my tastes.

 

[Tarheeler]

See, this is where I'm getting really confused on Labels. You summary is very Marxist. You probably won't find any Marxist that would disagree with that. Perhaps disagreements would come from more specific details, but the alienation and exploitation of wage labor is a core position of pretty much every Marxist school of thought, as is communal management of resources and the means of production.

Socialism, like libertarianism, is a broad term with many different schools of thought operating under it. So, while Marxism is one subset of socialists, it is far from being the only one, and, while most Marxists would agree with my statement, so would many non-Marixist socialists. Communal management of labor and resources is a core position of many socialist schools.

I agree with Marx on some points, but disagree on others.

 

[nazz]

The split goes back to the First International. To quote wiki:

Due to the wide variety of philosophies present in the First International, there was conflict from the start. The first objections to Marx's influence came from the Mutualists who opposed communism and statism. However, shortly after Mikhail Bakunin and his followers (called Collectivists while in the International) joined in 1868, the First International became polarised into two camps, with Marx and Bakunin as their respective figureheads. Perhaps the clearest differences between the groups emerged over their proposed strategies for achieving their visions of socialism. The anarchists grouped around Bakunin favoured (in Kropotkin's words) "direct economical struggle against capitalism, without interfering in the political parliamentary agitation." Marxist thinking, at that time, focused on parliamentary activity. For example, when the new German Empire of 1871 introduced male suffrage, many German socialists became active in the Marxist Social Democratic Party of Germany.

By the time of the Second International the anarchist/libertarian wing was excluded:

Anarchists tended to be excluded from the Second International, nevertheless "anarchism had in fact dominated the London Congress of the Second International".[4] This exclusion received the criticism from anti-authoritarian socialist present at the meetings.[5] It has been argued that at some point the Second International turned "into a battleground over the issue of libertarian versus authoritarian socialism. Not only did they effectively present themselves as champions of minority rights; they also provoked the German Marxists into demonstrating a dictatorial intolerance which was a factor in preventing the British labor movement from following the Marxist direction indicated by such leaders as H. M. Hyndman".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes it is true I am a mild fan of some of Ayn Rand's works.

I'll admit that some of her stuff is good, but you have to be discerning when it comes to her. She also had some stuff that borders on psychopathy.

 

[dust1n]

Some questions:
Regarding turkey:
- White meat or drumstick?
- Roasted, hong shao, or deep fried?

All.

- Just for Thanxgiving or at least once a week?

Guess it depends. I'll get a turkey leg any time of the year out here, but a whole turkey is generally reserved for far between communal situations.

For those who oppose capitalism, would you:
- Give government the power to prevent it?

I guess we'd have to get to nitty gritty of what exactly capitalism entails.

Ideally, decentralized federations of people ought to vote on the specifics of their community as to how a community is to act if it is to operate or change operations, but it should not, however, be based on coercion. Communities can also elect representatives to a mutually agreed upon delegation or higher organized forms of government. Local governments are free to engage in what arrangement they want to.

It think the important thing is the decentralization of power into voluntary associations more attuned to populace ideals, whether this be a government issue or a capital issue.

I'm not sure it makes sense to oppose "trade" for instance, or "market." Humans inevitably or going to make stuff and then want to trade it.

- Give government the power to restrict it more than Americastan does now?
To what extent or in what way?

I'm not fond of America in any sense. But, I really don't see the point in giving the government the power to enforce capitalism or negate capitalism. Capitalism is inherently tied to state.