Israel-Gaza : The bitter harvest of hate

[Shadow Wolf]

I'd also say that the Irish model is the Israeli plan -

When? Where? IDF has been bombing the hell out of everyone amd everything in Gaza. Looks more like they are doing what England done when it thought they could crush it all through violence.

 

[libre]

But the alternative would be worse, namely an endless cycle of assaults that always kill Israeli civilians as we have seen over and over again. And Hamas is still firing rockets into Israel, so what are the Israelis to do? Just roll over and play dead???

I think militarily there is a meaningful continuum between doing nothing and to indiscriminately bomb a densely populated population that has nowhere to flee. In my view framing it as though there was no other way that Israel could've chosen to react is a refusal to confront choices.

just think about some of your relatives and/or friends who got massacred and also the missiles launched by Hamas that are now hitting place of residence

I'm sure if they were my relatives and friends I would be completely distraught and claim all sorts of unreasonable things, not unlike the survivor reported in the Times of Israel article has.

In my view those who are not traumatized should be held to a higher standard of conduct in talking of this conflict, and not to elevate tragedies as though they constitute an objective assessment of the situation.

 

[sun rise]

According to whom? What makes it harder? It's both colonized peoples fighting against a colonizer, both involve urban settings, amd both are getting innocent people hurt and killed.

That's not the history of the region and it's quite different than Ireland.

 

[Revoltingest]

But the alternative would be worse, namely an endless cycle of assaults that always kill Israeli civilians as we have seen over and over again. And Hamas is still firing rockets into Israel, so what are the Israelis to do? Just roll over and play dead???

The "endless cycle" that's the root of the conflict
is Israel's brutal oppression of Palestinians.

Your approach, ie, brutal oppression or "roll over
and play dead" is a specious simplistic false alternative.
And you call yourself a Christian.

 

[metis]

I think militarily there is a meaningful continuum between doing nothing and to indiscriminately bomb a densely populated population that has nowhere to flee. In my view framing it as though there was no other way that Israel could've chosen to react is a refusal to confront choices.


I'm sure if they were my relatives and friends I would be completely distraught and claim all sorts of unreasonable things, not unlike the survivor reported in the Times of Israel article has.

In my view those who are not traumatized should be held to a higher standard of conduct in talking of this conflict, and not to elevate tragedies as though they constitute an objective assessment of the situation.

One needs to remember that Israeli targets are still under assault by Hamas' missiles. Israel has now slipped into a 2nd phase whereas most of the fighting is now block to block, thus the heavy bombing is mostly finished. It's not too easy to keep your cool when hundreds of rockets per day were being launched at mostly civilian targets.

 

[Revoltingest]

One needs to remember that Israeli targets are still under assault by Hamas' missiles.

One needs to remember that Israel has before, & continues
to kill far far more Palestinians than Hamas kills Israelis.
You side with a brutal, murderous, thieving, bigoted regime.
How Christian of you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's not the history of the region and it's quite different than Ireland.

That doesn't describe or explain how the situation is that different. Of course individual histories vary, but at the crux is colonization, terrorism, and brutal fighting that makes mountains of dead innocent people.

 

[libre]

What makes it harder? It's both colonized peoples fighting against a colonizer, both involve urban settings, amd both are getting innocent people hurt and killed.

Not every situation where innocent people are getting killed is of equal complexity.

Ireland was colonized for 800 years and freedom was a protracted process with many setbacks.
Come the 20th century the colonizer and colonized shared a common language, which also helped to make the occupation unsustainable, aside many other material factors.

 

[sun rise]

People are throwing around the word "colonizer" pretty freely. What about the hordes of US colonizers and what they did to the Native Americans. If the native people started raping and murdering non-native peoples and sending bombs into cities? What about England where waves of colonizers subjugated the people there including the Romans, anglo-saxons, vikings and Normans. Should the Welsh Celts start ejecting the colonizers?

Also, based on history, Jews were returning to the land they had been expelled from. That's hardly colonizing. And it was the Arab nations which tried to wipe them out in 1947 for starters.

The title of this thread "The Bitter Harvest of Hate" is very apt.

There will be yet another chance to find a better path. There are different views about what should happen in Gaza. Maybe there will be enough positive voices to consider an outcome that can start building a last peace.

 

[Revoltingest]

What about the hordes of US colonizers and what they did to the Native Americans. If the native people started raping and murdering non-native peoples and sending bombs into cities? What about England where waves of colonizers subjugated the people there including the Romans, anglo-saxons, vikings and Normans. Should the Welsh Celts start ejecting the colonizers?

That's a whole lotta whataboutism.
None justify Israel's stealing land from Palestinians,
killing them, evicting them, & oppression all who remain.

Also, based on history, Jews were returning to the land they had been expelled from. That's hardly colonizing. And it was the Arab nations which tried to wipe them out in 1947 for starters.

The Jews who invaded Palestine to kill, drive away,
& steal from Muslims were not the Jews who originally
lost that land thousands of years ago. And the Muslims
they brutalized & killed weren't the ones who originally
gave Jews the boot.
Your argument that past sins of one group toward
another justify modern day theft & murder is evil.

 

[libre]

What about the hordes of US colonizers and what they did to the Native Americans. If the native people started raping and murdering non-native peoples and sending bombs into cities?

People would denounce it.

Similarly, I imagine if the United States decided to turn the Navajo reserve into a blockaded open air prison and turn off the water and electricity we would not be okay with this.

I hope similarly, that we would not use criminals who emerged from this brutal new society to justify carpet bombing, the use of white phosphorus, a different legal system for the native, etc.

 

[sun rise]

That's a whole lotta whataboutism.
None justify Israel's stealing land from Palestinians,
killing them, evicting them, & oppression all who remain.

The Jews who invaded Palestine to kill, drive away,
& steal from Muslims were not the Jews who originally
lost that land thousands of years ago. And the Muslims
they brutalized & killed weren't the ones who originally
gave Jews the boot.
Your argument that past sins of one group toward
another justify modern day theft & murder is evil.

There's no point is debating with someone who has a one-sided and historically wrong view. Especially since I'm evil in your view.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Also, based on history, Jews were returning to the land they had been expelled from.

Literally THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO.

Also, I'm not a fan of literal ethno-nationalism. No race of people is entitled by right to any specific plot of land in exclusivity purely because of their race, especially not when their claim is LITERAL THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD and the thing they do to "reclaim" that land involves the ETHNIC CLEANSING OF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIVED THERE FOR CENTURIES.

Yes, Israel exists as an explicit act of colonization. Personally, I don't feel that this in any way disqualifies the right of Israel to exist (if we're going to start suggesting that countries that are a result of colonisation shouldn't exist, basically no nations would exist), nor does it make the people of Israel explicit colonisers (same logic as the above - we clearly should make a distinction between groups responsible for carrying out the act of colonisation and those who, through no fault of their own, simply end up being citizens of a state that was a colonial project).

The issue here is with the blatant ethno-nationalist implications of this statement, not to mention the fact that if you're using "returning to the land they had been expelled from" as a implicit justification for the mass ethnic displacement that Israel carried out, then you don't even have a moral basis for objecting to Hamas calling for the ethnic displacement of Israelis and Jews.

According to you, that's morally fine. It's perfectly okay to use the fact that you were ethnically displaced as a justification for ethnically displacing others.

And it was the Arab nations which tried to wipe them out in 1947 for starters.

Again, according to you, engaging in ethnic displacement is absolutely fine. So what's the issue?

 

[Revoltingest]

There's no point is debating with someone who has a one-sided and historically wrong view. Especially since I'm evil in your view.

Oh, you have "The Truth", eh.
What I see in your posts is the typical
Christian fundie view that Jews are
righteous, & Muslims are evil.

I look at who is doing what to whom.
Israel is the one doing the oppressing,
killing, & stealing on a grand scale.
It lacks humanity for non-Jews.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm pleased to see Rabbi Sharon Brous getting more press.

 

[sun rise]

I'm pleased to see Rabbi Sharon Brous getting more press.

She has a really wonderful perspective.

I had given up on this thread where some blame the Jews for Hamas' raping women, murdering babies and calling for a "final solution" to Israelis. But this story was a breath of fresh air in an otherwise fetid swamp.

 

[libre]

this thread where some blame the Jews for Hamas' raping women, murdering babies and calling for a "final solution" to Israelis.

Admittedly I have a few users on this forum on ignore, but I haven't seen any such thing in this thread. To who are you referring?

 

[Revoltingest]

She has a really wonderful perspective.

I had given up on this thread where some blame the Jews for Hamas' raping women, murdering babies and calling for a "final solution" to Israelis. But this story was a breath of fresh air in an otherwise fetid swamp.

I challenge you quote the posts you claim to exist.
Your post seems merely a tantrum about anyone
giving Israel responsibility for violent reactions
to its murder, thievery, & oppression of Palestinians.
No one has killed more babies than Israel.
You defend evil.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Admittedly I have a few users on this forum on ignore, but I haven't seen any such thing in this thread. To who are you referring?

I wouldn't know and, if asked, I wouldn't name names.

Sometimes folks get caught up in the "from the river to the sea / by any means necessary" rhetoric without thinking through. It's more posturing than some call for a final solution. More common is the "all that talk about rape is probably fake new and they deserved it in any event."

What unites these two streams of performative angst is any sense that Hamas may bear some responsibility for violating a truce, perpetration the most disgusting war crimes, and perpetuating the war. They terrorize, rape, and kill, and folks cheer.

 

[Lyndon]

Compared to the Israelis, Hamas look like the lesser evil