Israel: Ethnic Cleansing or Genocide.

[King Phenomenon]

So we are agreed; just because you claim to be waging a war to eliminate a legitimate threat doesn't make any action taken to that effect reasonable or justified, so pointing out that Hamas is the intended target doesn't justify what the actions are.

To repeat an analogy I used earlier (as unfitting as practically any analogy or thought experiment may be in encompassing all the myriad factors of the current Israeli/Gaza situation, I still feel it is at least a suitable illustration of a basic moral principle): If your uncle were a terrorist and I dispatched him, along with a number of members of your family, with a grenade, I may well justify that act by saying that while it is bad that innocent members of your family died it is still morally justified to get rid of a terrorist. But such a justification says nothing about whether or not throwing a grenade into a family home is justified in the first place.

I’m not a military man but maybe they’re looking at the people who are trying to hide Hamas as terrorists to

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I’m not a military man but maybe they’re looking at the people who are trying to hide Hamas as terrorists to

"Trying to hide" and simply "being in the immediate vicinity of" is a fairly significant difference, and I would regard any military that attempts to obscure the difference between those two - or imply there is no difference - as being guilty of war crimes.

 

[King Phenomenon]

Ah. Perhaps we disagree less than I assumed, then.

Oh we both agree one hundred percent how Israel is doing is wrong. Is there a better way to stop the terrorism? I’m not sure. I’m not a military man

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Oh we both agree one hundred percent how Israel is doing is wrong. Is there a better way to stop the terrorism? I’m not sure. I’m not a military man

Historically speaking, terrorism and extremism tends to thrive in areas that are subject to significant oppression and/or military occupation, so military responses often have the opposite effect in terms of reducing terrorist numbers. The problem is, you cannot shoot people in their ideology.

What you can do is try to alleviate the situations and circumstances that have demonstrated consistently towards fostering violent extremism. That's not to say there is no place whatsoever for a robust military response; in fact, I would argue that in a situation such as Israel's a robust military response to October 7th was essential as deterrence and for the rescue of hostages. But military response doesn't have a great track record of ending terrorism on its own.

 

[Revoltingest]

Last night 30 trucks were dispatched and distributed aid to northern Gaza. It looks like this is going to be an ongoing metric included on the COGAT daily status report until the other stakeholders are convinced that those residents are no longer in jeopardy.

And Israel shot into the crowd of people waiting in line for food.
Over 100 deaths.
Over 760 injuries.

MSN

Food trucks are Israel's bait piles.
BTW, in MI, it's illegal for hunters to use bait piles.
It's considered unsporting.

 

[King Phenomenon]

Historically speaking, terrorism and extremism tends to thrive in areas that are subject to significant oppression and/or military occupation, so military responses often have the opposite effect in terms of reducing terrorist numbers. The problem is, you cannot shoot people in their ideology.

What you can do is try to alleviate the situations and circumstances that have demonstrated consistently towards fostering violent extremism. That's not to say there is no place whatsoever for a robust military response; in fact, I would argue that in a situation such as Israel's a robust military response to October 7th was essential as deterrence and for the rescue of hostages. But military response doesn't have a great track record of ending terrorism on its own.

Well there hasn’t been any more 9/11’s. I disagree with Israel taking Palestinian homes and land but that doesn’t give Hamas the right to commit acts of terror and kill innocents. Maybe Good will come out of this and there will be no more conflict between these two people.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Well there hasn’t been any more 9/11’s.

But that's probably less down to the wars or occupation in Afghanistan and Iraq than it is to significant changes in security policies that are still ongoing today.

As for whether or not there is still an Al-Qaeda, however...

I disagree with Israel taking Palestinian homes and land but that doesn’t give Hamas the right to commit acts of terror and kill innocents.

I agree. But you don't stop acts of terror by exacerbating the situation that lead to the terrorism in the first place. As of right now, the consequences have been far, far, far more civilians dying and far, far, far more animosity towards Israel.

Maybe Good will come out of this and there will be no more conflict between these two people.

If history is to be believed, not if the only solution to excessive violence is more excessive violence.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Did you read what I wrote ...

Did read the responses?

And what are we to make of ...

Plus Israel wants to put an end to the tit for tat for the past hundred years

Just what 1924 "tit for tat" did you have in mind?

 

[Yerda]

And Israel shot into the crowd of people waiting in line for food.
Over 100 deaths.
Over 760 injuries.

MSN

Food trucks are Israel's bait piles.
BTW, in MI, it's illegal for hunters to use bait piles.
It's considered unsporting.

This is every bit as sick and inhumane as the Hamas atrocity. Absolutely vile.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I’m not a military man but maybe they’re looking at the people who are trying to hide Hamas as terrorists to

That's an issue I've thought about, too. I wonder what fraction of young and middle aged men are active in Hamas. I wonder what fraction of their wives and adolescent children are unaware of that they have fathers, husbands, and sons working for Hamas. I wonder what fraction of Palestinians know where the hostages and tunnels are but keep that secret or whether they could safely divulge such information if they had it. How many were aware of the training exercises prior to 10-7 and kept the secret. My guess is that the majority of Palestinians old enough to have an opinion support Hamas and help it. Those people knew what might result from this attack, and apparently tacitly condoned it, but that might be incorrect. Maybe there were tens of thousands of people who objected but were forced to do so silently, but how can that be if they had telephones and knew what was coming?

In any event, the Palestinian people will suffer the consequences for all those who participated in this attack, supported those who did actively or by looking away. Whatever fraction that actually is sympathetic to Hamas and the effort to attack Israel has brought this on their people, , which I can only hope was the majority of them.

Children below a certain age can't be considered complicit, but what duty do the Israeli's have to protect those children if it was their parents that put them in harm's way by participating in or willingly keeping secrets for them? And why should the Israelis believe that those boys and girls won't be the next generation of terrorists and terrorist sympathizers? Different people will answer these questions differently.

As for me, it is what it is. I don't have an opinion regarding what Israel should do. The problem seems to unsolvable whatever they choose. They can vacate Israel as the Palestinians and surrounding Arabs insist upon, tolerate the attacks, respond with minimal force, or do what they're doing and exact a harsh punishment. I see none of these working.

Nor can there be a two-state solution given the Palestinians' commitment to exterminating their unwelcome neighbors, which in my opinion is the root problem of Arab-Israeli hostilities. This inability to ever simply accept the right of Israel to exist in peace, which appears to be widespread among the Palestinians, appears to be a self-destructive cultural and moral defect.

I remain detached, a disinterested observer from afar. I find myself increasingly withdrawing emotionally from the world except my immediate piece of it. It's compassion fatigue, and I don't want to feel badly. We are each responsible for managing our emotional well-being, and in a world dominated by a pandemic and its mask and vaccine tantrums, the invasion of Ukraine, runaway climate disaster, this war, and MAGA phenomenon with its perpetual disgusting politics, I choose to have no emotional reaction to any of it insofar as that is possible. Good luck to them all, including those of you suffering vicariously with the Palestinians.

 

[dybmh]

And Israel shot into the crowd of people waiting in line for food.
Over 100 deaths.
Over 760 injuries.

MSN

Food trucks are Israel's bait piles.
BTW, in MI, it's illegal for hunters to use bait piles.
It's considered unsporting.

Here's video of the incident. I'm sorry, I'm not able to reply more at this time.

 

[Lyndon]

The IDF told the Western media their tanks didn't fire into the crowd, then in the Hebrew media for pro war Israelis they said the tanks fired into the crowd, lying sacks of .......

 

[Revoltingest]

The IDF told the Western media their tanks didn't fire into the crowd, then in the Hebrew media for pro war Israelis they said the tanks fired into the crowd, lying sacks of .......

It's a problem with the religion, ie, when
doing God's work, lying is a legitimate tool.
And there's also lying to cover up crimes
they know are wrong, but are committed
out of hatred, vengeance, & greed.

 

[metis]

The IDF told the Western media their tanks didn't fire into the crowd, then in the Hebrew media for pro war Israelis they said the tanks fired into the crowd, lying sacks of .......

And you were there to see what actually happened, right?

I'm not sure what went awry, so I'm waiting for more information from more neutral sources as I don't trust either side.

 

[Lyndon]

And you were there to see what actually happened, right?

I'm not sure what went awry, so I'm waiting for more information from more neutral sources as I don't trust either side.

The IDF said in english the tanks didn't fire and said in Hebrew the tanks fired on the crowd, obviously the IDF is lying to some one but that may not be obvious to some Jewish friends as many will defend any atrocity by Israel

 

[metis]

The IDF said in english the tanks didn't fire and said in Hebrew the tanks fired on the crowd, obviously the IDF is lying to some on...

Again, I've run across different accounts from several different sources [none of them IDF or "Jewish"], so I'm hoping to find out more this weekend.

one but that may not be obvious to our Jewish friends as many will defend any atrocity by Israel

Or some anti-Semitic bigots who will parrot any misinformation to blame Israel for basically anything and everything.

Since I am in neither camp, I want to get more information before passing any judgement, so I guess that makes me a bad guy in your eyes.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I still think Israel is doing a good deed by trying not to kill civilians. Credit. I think that the UN is too aggregate Islamist to be trusted with rebuilding in Gaza and with the security of Gaza. UN is largely responsible for Hamas complete dereliction: miles of tunnels, missiles, both everywhere and UN funded schools for decades teaching children to die gloriously in combat. The UN is responsible for this but refuses any responsibility.

 

[Lyndon]

I still think Israel is doing a good deed by trying not to kill civilians. Credit. I think that the UN is too aggregate Islamist to be trusted with rebuilding in Gaza and with the security of Gaza. UN is largely responsible for Hamas complete dereliction: miles of tunnels, missiles, both everywhere and UN funded schools for decades teaching children to die gloriously in combat. The UN is responsible for this but refuses any responsibility.

like what do you think Israelis are being taught in school, there are just as many calls for complete genocide from Israelis as from Palestinians if not more

 

[Lyndon]

Here's the most definitive study of the aid convoy massacre, hundreds of people shot, Israel caught in lies, claims it was Hamas, why would Hamas shoot their own people

What video and eyewitness accounts tell us about Gazans killed around aid convoy

BBC Verify analyses footage and Israeli statements to trace what happened when more than 100 Gazans were killed.

www.bbc.com

 

[Brickjectivity]

like what do you think Israelis are being taught in school, there are just as many calls for complete genocide from Israelis as from Palestinians if not more

The UN is a USA funded organization, but it is really a forum for all other countries to struggle against the USA. Hence the UN is a terrible partner in the USA project to preserve Israel. Nor will it provide any answers as to how to resolve the (war) situation that the USA can implement. In fact its all up to the USA to figure out how to fix this debacle, and the UN loves that. Why us? Because we have the biggest military. The UN has effectively countered and embarrassed the USA in this matter.