Israel: Ethnic Cleansing or Genocide.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Some people are throwing the word "genocide" around here like it's candy being tossed around at a parade.

If Israel were to use actual genocide, they would begin to kill and/or detain all Palestinians in all areas that it controls. Are they doing that? Obviously, not.

I think looking to the Kosovo War can be illuminating here.

In that conflict, Yugoslavian and Serbian forces under Milosevic killed 7,000-9,000 ethnic Albanians and displaced 1 million people. This was enough for Milosevic to be charged at the (edit) International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia with the following war crimes:

• genocide;
• complicity in genocide;
• deportation;
• murder;
• persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds;
• inhumane acts/forcible transfer; extermination;
• imprisonment;
• torture;
• willful killing;
• unlawful confinement;
• willfully causing great suffering;
• unlawful deportation or transfer;
• extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly;
• cruel treatment;
• plunder of public or private property;
• attacks on civilians;
• destruction or willful damage done to historic monuments and institutions dedicated to education or religion;
• unlawful attacks on civilian objects

Slobodan Milošević - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Milosevic died partway through his trial, so he was never convicted. Still, I think it's useful to recognize this as one bar for what can reasonably constitute genocide and related war crimes.

I also think it's useful to recognize that the bar set in the Kosovo War has been far, far exceeded by Israel in Gaza.

 

[Shaul]

I haven't seen any evidence of rape occurring except from the Israeli propaganda machine, there were no rape kits, DNA evidence etc. I've even heard reports that half the Israelis killed were by friendly fire

No offense, but this is nonsense. The rape victims have testified to what was done to them. Videos were posted by the perpetrators themselves. Major media outlets, such as the New York Times and CNN, have published stories acknowledging the validity of the claims.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

No offense, but this is nonsense.

Why "no offense"? Those who "haven't seen any evidence of rape" are apparently well practiced in looking away.

A week ago the AP reported

Rape and sexual assault took place during Hamas attack, Israel association says​

The article notes:

An Associated Press investigation also found that sexual assault was part of an atrocity-filled rampage by Palestinian militant group Hamas and others who killed about 1,200 people, most of them civilians, and took around 250 hostages on Oct. 7. Hamas has rejected allegations that its gunmen committed sexual assault.​

If one follows the Associated Press investigation link, one finds a December 6th report:

New signs emerge of 'widespread' sexual crimes bt Hamas, as Netanyahu alleges global indifference​

JERUSALEM (AP) — A man hiding in a pit during the Oct. 7 Hamas assault on an outdoor music festival in Israel said he heard someone nearby screaming she was being raped. Elsewhere in the area, a combat paramedic saw the body of a young woman with her legs open, her pants pulled down, and what looked like semen on her lower back. An army reservist who was tasked with identifying those killed by the militants said some of the women were found wearing only bloodied underwear.​

​

Such accounts given to The Associated Press, along with first assessments by an Israeli rights group, show that sexual assault was part of an atrocities-filled rampage by Hamas and other Gaza militants who killed about 1,200 people, most of them civilians, and took more than 240 hostages that day.​

​

While investigators are still trying to determine the scope of the sexual assaults, Israel’s government is accusing the international community, particularly the United Nations, of ignoring the pain of Israeli victims.​

Those who dismiss the October 7th pogrom with their disgusting "I haven't seen any evidence" chorus are simply reprising the same theme song that has accompanied eighty years of holocaust denial.

 

[Revoltingest]

Why "no offense"? Those who "haven't seen any evidence of rape" are apparently well practiced in looking away.

A week ago the AP reported

Rape and sexual assault took place during Hamas attack, Israel association says​

The article notes:

An Associated Press investigation also found that sexual assault was part of an atrocity-filled rampage by Palestinian militant group Hamas and others who killed about 1,200 people, most of them civilians, and took around 250 hostages on Oct. 7. Hamas has rejected allegations that its gunmen committed sexual assault.​

If one follows the Associated Press investigation link, one finds a December 6th report:

New signs emerge of 'widespread' sexual crimes bt Hamas, as Netanyahu alleges global indifference​

JERUSALEM (AP) — A man hiding in a pit during the Oct. 7 Hamas assault on an outdoor music festival in Israel said he heard someone nearby screaming she was being raped. Elsewhere in the area, a combat paramedic saw the body of a young woman with her legs open, her pants pulled down, and what looked like semen on her lower back. An army reservist who was tasked with identifying those killed by the militants said some of the women were found wearing only bloodied underwear.​

​

Such accounts given to The Associated Press, along with first assessments by an Israeli rights group, show that sexual assault was part of an atrocities-filled rampage by Hamas and other Gaza militants who killed about 1,200 people, most of them civilians, and took more than 240 hostages that day.​

​

While investigators are still trying to determine the scope of the sexual assaults, Israel’s government is accusing the international community, particularly the United Nations, of ignoring the pain of Israeli victims.​

Those who dismiss the October 7th pogrom with their disgusting "I haven't seen any evidence" chorus are simply reprising the same theme song that has accompanied eighty years of holocaust denial.

It's interesting that in a thread about Israel's genocide of
Palestinians, the pro Israel crowd changes the topic to
Hamas sexually assaulting Israelis. I see no disagreement
over sexual assault being wrong....but it's presented as
though there's controversy about its wrongness. This
stinks of straw.
Why?
Decrying sexual sexual assault is an Israeli propaganda
tool used against Hamas. It enhances the emotional climate
of vengeance against Hamas & Palestinians generally,
thereby inspiring genocide.

And then there's the hypocrisy of silence about Israelis
sexually assaulting Palestinians.

UN experts speak out about sexual abuse of Palestinian women and girls by IDF

Experts expressed ‘shock’ and ‘distress’ at allegations that IDF officers had raped, assaulted, and strip-searched female prisoners

www.independent.co.uk

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I haven't seen any evidence of rape occurring except from the Israeli propaganda machine, there were no rape kits, DNA evidence etc. I've even heard reports that half the Israelis killed were by friendly fire

You don't have to believe that Hamas did nothing wrong in order to rightly be critical of Israel in how it has thus far handled its response. The rapes were very widely reported, and as far as I am aware the claims of friendly fire in Israel are unsubstantiated (much less the idea that HALF of the victims were due to it, which seems absurd).

Please don't downplay what Hamas did. We don't need to believe that an extremist, genocidal death cult are squeeky-clean in order to believe that war crimes and the mass slaughter of civilians is a justifiable retaliation.

 

[dybmh]

OK

Last night 30 trucks were dispatched and distributed aid to northern Gaza. It looks like this is going to be an ongoing metric included on the COGAT daily status report until the other stakeholders are convinced that those residents are no longer in jeopardy.

 

[King Phenomenon]

I realise I am grabbing the 3rd rail with this thread, but I feel I cannot stay silent any longer. The attached news report makes truly shocking reading: Israel is deliberately starving Palestinians, UN rights expert says

Not only is the Israeli government and army denying food supplies to the people they have displaced. They have also destroyed fishing vessels, orchards, olive trees and greenhouses, for no good reason. Children are suffering extreme malnutrition, at a level that will stunt their growth and ruin their lives.

Most of Gaza has been reduced to rubble and almost the entire population of 2 million people, herded, like cattle, up against the Egyptian border in the South, at Rafah. And now the Israeli army is about to destroy Rafah, too. Just last night, a government spokesman said in a BBC radio interview Israel has a plan to move 1.4 million people from the Rafah area to locations he was not willing to disclose. He did not deny the suggestion that they may be transferred across the border to Sinai. Once there, if that is indeed the intended location, I am sure they will make it very difficult for any of them to come back.

This Israeli government seem to be embarked on a Final Solution. I do not use those words lightly. It is disgusting beyond words that Israel, of all nations on Earth, should be doing this. They should to be arraigned before the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

Israel is doing what they’re doing to eliminate an enemy that wants only to repeat more oct 7 attacks. I disagree with the way they’re going about doing it but that’s their reason. Also they want to put an end to the tit for tat over the past 100 years

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Last night 30 trucks were dispatched and distributed aid to northern Gaza. It looks like this is going to be an ongoing metric included on the COGAT daily status report until the other stakeholders are convinced that those residents are no longer in jeopardy.

Have you seen this morning's news?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Israel is doing what they’re doing to eliminate an enemy that wants only to repeat more oct 7 attacks. I disagree with the way they’re going about doing it but that’s their reason.

I seem to remember a justification offered not that long ago about

"doing what we're doing to eliminate an enemy that only wants to repeat more 9/11 attacks."​

The question is not whether the reason is good, but whether the reason is sufficient.

 

[King Phenomenon]

I seem to remember a justification offered not that long ago about

"doing what we're doing to eliminate an enemy that only wants to repeat more 9/11 attacks."​

The question is not whether the reason is good, but whether the reason is sufficient.

There hasn’t been any more 9/11’s. I disagree with the way the US went about though

 

[King Phenomenon]

I seem to remember a justification offered not that long ago about

"doing what we're doing to eliminate an enemy that only wants to repeat more 9/11 attacks."​

The question is not whether the reason is good, but whether the reason is sufficient.

Plus Israel wants to put an end to the tit for tat for the past hundred years

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There hasn’t been any more 9/11’s. I disagree with the way the US went about though

Therefore?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Plus Israel wants to put an end to the tit for tat for the past hundred years

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Have you seen this morning's news?

Dozens killed in Gaza aid stampede; IDF says its fire caused no more than 10 casualties

Hamas puts toll at 104, blames Israel, could suspend hostage talks; IDF: Most casualties were trampled or run over; troops did not fire on crowd, shot at several Gazans who endangered them

www.timesofisrael.com

‘Life draining out of Gaza’: UN on aid shooting as death toll hits 30,000

UN aid chief “appalled” at Israeli attack that killed at least 112 Palestinians waiting for food aid in Gaza.

www.aljazeera.com

Bloody hell.

 

[King Phenomenon]

Therefore?

There’s no Half measures in war unfortunately

 

[ImmortalFlame]

There’s no Half measures in war unfortunately

Does that make any action carried out in the name of war justified? Yes or no?

 

[King Phenomenon]

Does that make any action carried out in the name of war justified? Yes or no?

Did you read what I wrote that I disagree with how they’re doing it ? People need to find better ways to win wars.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Did you read what I wrote that I disagree with how they’re doing it ? People need to find better ways to win wars.

So we are agreed; just because you claim to be waging a war to eliminate a legitimate threat doesn't make any action taken to that effect reasonable or justified, so pointing out that Hamas is the intended target doesn't justify what the actions are.

To repeat an analogy I used earlier (as unfitting as practically any analogy or thought experiment may be in encompassing all the myriad factors of the current Israeli/Gaza situation, I still feel it is at least a suitable illustration of a basic moral principle): If your uncle were a terrorist and I dispatched him, along with a number of members of your family, with a grenade, I may well justify that act by saying that while it is bad that innocent members of your family died it is still morally justified to get rid of a terrorist. But such a justification says nothing about whether or not throwing a grenade into a family home is justified in the first place.

 

[King Phenomenon]

So we are agreed; just because you claim to be waging a war to eliminate a legitimate threat doesn't make any action taken to that effect justified, so pointing out that Hamas is the intended target doesn't justify what the actions are.

To repeat an analogy I used earlier (as unfitting as practically any analogy or thought experiment may be in encompassing all the myriad factors of the current Israeli/Gaza situation, I still feel it is at least a suitable illustration of a basic moral principle): If your uncle were a terrorist and I dispatched him, along with a number of members of your family, with a grenade, I may well justify that act by saying it is morally good to get rid of a terrorist. But such a justification says nothing about whether or not throwing a grenade into a family home is justified.

Like I said their doing it To eliminate an enemy that wants to commit repeated offenses like October 7. I Disagree with how they’re doing it

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Like I said their doing it To eliminate an enemy that wants to commit repeated offenses like October 7. I Disagree with how they’re doing it

Ah. Perhaps we disagree less than I assumed, then.