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Is Infinity Possible

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I understand why division by zero is not allowed, it breaks everything else.
It doesn't. We could easily define it and make it consistent. It would just be pointless.
My simple point was that intellectually division by zero should equate to infinity (a number you can't define)
.
I got your point. It is based on an understanding of an operation that
1) assumes certain properties of the reals
2) ascribes a conceptual identify to division in contradistinction to how division is actually defined.
Division isn't to be understood in terms of notions that allow one to infer from dividing quantities, something must follow concerning the operation of division. Division is simple: it is the inverse of multiplication, such that if a/b=c, then a=b*c. That's division. It's the inverse operation of multiplication. It doesn't work for division by 0 unless we define division by zero to be trivial and to hold only in the case in which division by 0 implies that the number divided is 0 and is divided by 0.
Put on a number line, I'd never get to the answer, just keep walking. So we say it's undefined, not allowed or what have you.
Wrong. You can't put the result of a mathematical operation on the number line unless you define the operation. The operation is defined such that division by zero isn't defined. It is true that the limit of the function 1/x as x approaches 0 is infinite, but this cannot be equated with division by 0, let alone be understood in terms of the operation of division.

However, I feel strongly that just because it breaks a system doesn't mean it should be left alone.
Nothing breaks down. You've used a definition that is wrong and inferred from this error conclusions which are wrong. You are trying to apply to a formal operation some conceptual process that is neither the basis for the operation nor the definition.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In mathematics, Cantor made infinite sets part of its foundations
The greeks made infinity part of the foundations of mathematics (albeit implicitly), and Newton and the other founders and developers of basic calculus relied fundamentally upon infinities. Cantor absolutely did not make infinite sets foundational, because what he did was to prove that infinite sets aren't necessarily equivalent (some infinities are larger than others). The real number line depends upon the fact that there are infinitely many points between any two points that are infinitely close.
QUOTE]and most mathematicians have followed him, but there are exceptions[/QUOTE]
The intuitionists and constructivists don't disallow infinite sets. They usually explicitly allow these. They simply constrain the nature of such sets and how they can be constructed
since Cantor based maths on logic, a foundation demolished by Gödel.
This is absolutely nonsense. It is so ridiculously false it would be laughable if it were not for the fact that it can apparently be believed by intelligent persons. Gödel couldn't have proved anything without using logic. He relied on logic to prove that any consistent system couldn't be complete. But regardless, how on earth could Gödel have "demolished" anything about logic as any foundation without explicit appeals to logic? Incidentally, Gödel actually believed that there existed consistent and complete formal systems, but that God alone knew and/or understood these.
The idea that Gödel "demolished" the notion that logic can serve as a foundation for mathematics is perhaps the most inaccurate, ludicrous, insane notion I've yet come across here. But I think I get the source of such a fundamental misunderstanding. Gödel proved that all formal systems couldn't be reduced to any system of formal, classical logic unless the system can't prove the truth values of "propositions" derivable within it or can derive propositions which can't be evaluated within the formalism.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
I was condensing and simplifying for those with neither knowledge of nor interest in mathematics. I don't claim any great knowledge myself: I'm only interested in where it impinges on philosophy.

What I meant about Gödel was that if you can show that a mathematics based on logic can generate untestable statements, you obviously demolish mathematics as it was traditionally conceived. Either you have to accept the possibility that mathematics has "holes in it" or find some other foundation.

What I meant about Cantor was that his use of infinity seems fundamental to his work. For a strict finitist, Cantor's approach to set theory is surely unacceptable. And there are indeed strict finitists out there!
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What I meant about Gödel was that if you can show that a mathematics based on logic can generate untestable statements, you obviously demolish mathematics as it was traditionally conceived.
That wouldn't demolish mathematics.
It would still be useful & consistent.
 

NoGuru

Don't be serious. Seriously
It doesn't. We could easily define it and make it consistent. It would just be pointless.

That view is held only because we have no known use for it.
.

1) assumes certain properties of the reals

Perhaps our understanding of "the reals" is wrong.

2) [...]
Division is simple: it is the inverse of multiplication,

And this argument is useless. Why? Again, because of i. A square is (was) defined as a number multiplied by itself. No number squared can become -1. Therefore i is the exception because we found a use for it. The day we find a use for division by zero, rules will change. Division won't be defined as an inverse of multiplication. Kind of how quantum mechanics started to change our understanding of physics. Experiments showing sound can move faster than light. Studies showing the speed of light (our understanding of it) is wrong.

Don't get too caught up on rules and definitions. They're going to change.

Nothing breaks down. You've used a definition that is wrong and inferred from this error conclusions which are wrong. You are trying to apply to a formal operation some conceptual process that is neither the basis for the operation nor the definition.

Sure it does. What's the value of 1 + 2 if I can mathematically prove within the same system that 1 = 2? I can write any answer and it's still correct. If I can divide any number by zero and get infinity, then by use of our standard mathematical equations and practice, every number equals every other number.

Again, think of i. By breaking and redefining rules we've accomplished much in the way of electronics. Imagine when someone first wrote down √-1. How many people do you think laughed, scoffed or simply called that person stupid? "That's against the rules / definition" I'm sure was a common objection.
 

ukok102nak

Active Member
I think that infinity is impossible because if everything in the Universe is finite then how it can be infinite?

~;>did you ever heard something about
reverse of reverse

. ... just askin
if we may say so ... .


:ty:




godbless
unto all always
 

ukok102nak

Active Member
~;> thats one of many things
how infinity works
thats why
its cannot be heard nor seen
by any human thoughts
but it doesn't mean humans cant
evolved to learn the very secret that is
within this reality
if we may say so


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

Nope, never heard of it.
 

Ana.J

Active Member
~;> thats one of many things
how infinity works
thats why
its cannot be heard nor seen
by any human thoughts
but it doesn't mean humans cant
evolved to learn the very secret that is
within this reality
if we may say so

I agree with the fact that one cannot see or touch infinity. It was Aristotle that said actual infinities couldn"t exist, so the idea has been around for quite some time. Infinity is a theoretical abstraction as are philosophical constructs relating to infinities and I think the real philosophical problem of the existence of actual infinities is that they are logically inconceivable. If they did exist we could not confirm it through observation because there would be no way to measure them. If an actual infinity were to exist there is no way for us to know it.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Well does anyone truly know what so called infinity is, of course not, how could we with a finite mind body organism, impossible.
 

ukok102nak

Active Member
I agree with the fact that one cannot see or touch infinity. It was Aristotle that said actual infinities couldn"t exist, so the idea has been around for quite some time. Infinity is a theoretical abstraction as are philosophical constructs relating to infinities and I think the real philosophical problem of the existence of actual infinities is that they are logically inconceivable. If they did exist we could not confirm it through observation because there would be no way to measure them. If an actual infinity were to exist there is no way for us to know it.

~;> indeed
thats why some people made some claimef about this so called infinite
that happeneds to be weird
:read: (as it is written)
What are some weird facts about infinity?

Every infinite set can be put in one-to-one correspondence with an infinitesimally small (but still infinite) subset of itself!

For example the Natural numbers, N={0,1,2,3,…}N={0,1,2,3,…}, and the powers of ten, {1,10,100,1000,…}{1,10,100,1000,…}, have a rather obvious 1-1 correspondence via the bijection n↔10nn↔10n.

In a rigorous sense, almost all natural numbers are not a power of ten, and yet there are just as many powers of ten as natural numbers. From there ∞∞ just gets infinitely weirder. Hence Bustany's Rule of Infinity:

Infinity and Intuition do not mix

Edit: It seems my use of "infinitesimally small" subset is too intuitive for some, so here is a possible definition. Let the original set be AA and the subset be BB then it is "infinitesimally small" if given N∈NN∈N there exists a function f:A→Bf:A→B such that the pre-image of every element is large, that is

∀b∈B:∣∣f−1(b)∣∣≥N∀b∈B:|f−1(b)|≥N

I leave it as an excercise for the reader to find such a function for the Cantor Set which is an infinitesimally small subset of [0,1]⊂R[0,1]⊂R created by repeatedly removing the open "middle third" of each remaining segment beginning with (13,23)(13,23). This subset also happens to be both uncountable and of measure zero.

If you try to handle infinity with computer arithmetic, you quickly run into some head-scratching situations. I have some favorites, but first: The term "NaN" means "Not a Number" and is the standard response a computer gives if asked "What is zero divided by zero?" and other questions where neither a real number nor ±∞ is the answer. "What is 1/0?" also returns NaN, though some would like to say the answer to that one is "±∞". Hmm… does that mean 0 times ±∞ is exactly 1? Why 1, and not some other finite number? If 2/0 is also ±∞, does that mean 1 = 2? Down the rabbit hole we go.

So here are some of my favorite "weird facts" involving infinity.

• Infinity minus infinity is NaN. So is infinity minus half of infinity. Imagine putting numbers 1, 2, 3,… into a hat, forever, and every time you put an even number in, someone else takes the smallest number in the hat out. How many numbers are in the hat? Your intuition would be an infinite number, but one could also say there are zero numbers in the hat. Pick any number, n. It was removed from the hat when 2n was put in! By this argument, the hat with an infinite number of numbers cannot have any numbers in it. This is why ∞ – ∞ has to be NaN.

• Zero to the power –2 is ∞. It looks like it should be NaN since we divide by zero, but for even negative integer powers of zero, the result is (±∞) squared, which is ∞.

• We know exactly who introduced the ∞ symbol for infinity, and when: The English mathematician John Wallis invented it in 1655, in his Treatise on the Conic Sections.

• Zero times infinity is NaN. Try as you might, there is no way to make sense of the question "What is 0 multiplied by ∞?" and the only reasonable answer is "Not a Number."


:ty:




godbless
unto all always
 

Ana.J

Active Member
~;> indeed
thats why some people made some claimef about this so called infinite
that happeneds to be weird
:read: (as it is written)
What are some weird facts about infinity?

Every infinite set can be put in one-to-one correspondence with an infinitesimally small (but still infinite) subset of itself!

For example the Natural numbers, N={0,1,2,3,…}N={0,1,2,3,…}, and the powers of ten, {1,10,100,1000,…}{1,10,100,1000,…}, have a rather obvious 1-1 correspondence via the bijection n↔10nn↔10n.

In a rigorous sense, almost all natural numbers are not a power of ten, and yet there are just as many powers of ten as natural numbers. From there ∞∞ just gets infinitely weirder. Hence Bustany's Rule of Infinity:

Infinity and Intuition do not mix

Edit: It seems my use of "infinitesimally small" subset is too intuitive for some, so here is a possible definition. Let the original set be AA and the subset be BB then it is "infinitesimally small" if given N∈NN∈N there exists a function f:A→Bf:A→B such that the pre-image of every element is large, that is

∀b∈B:∣∣f−1(b)∣∣≥N∀b∈B:|f−1(b)|≥N

I leave it as an excercise for the reader to find such a function for the Cantor Set which is an infinitesimally small subset of [0,1]⊂R[0,1]⊂R created by repeatedly removing the open "middle third" of each remaining segment beginning with (13,23)(13,23). This subset also happens to be both uncountable and of measure zero.

If you try to handle infinity with computer arithmetic, you quickly run into some head-scratching situations. I have some favorites, but first: The term "NaN" means "Not a Number" and is the standard response a computer gives if asked "What is zero divided by zero?" and other questions where neither a real number nor ±∞ is the answer. "What is 1/0?" also returns NaN, though some would like to say the answer to that one is "±∞". Hmm… does that mean 0 times ±∞ is exactly 1? Why 1, and not some other finite number? If 2/0 is also ±∞, does that mean 1 = 2? Down the rabbit hole we go.

So here are some of my favorite "weird facts" involving infinity.

• Infinity minus infinity is NaN. So is infinity minus half of infinity. Imagine putting numbers 1, 2, 3,… into a hat, forever, and every time you put an even number in, someone else takes the smallest number in the hat out. How many numbers are in the hat? Your intuition would be an infinite number, but one could also say there are zero numbers in the hat. Pick any number, n. It was removed from the hat when 2n was put in! By this argument, the hat with an infinite number of numbers cannot have any numbers in it. This is why ∞ – ∞ has to be NaN.

• Zero to the power –2 is ∞. It looks like it should be NaN since we divide by zero, but for even negative integer powers of zero, the result is (±∞) squared, which is ∞.

• We know exactly who introduced the ∞ symbol for infinity, and when: The English mathematician John Wallis invented it in 1655, in his Treatise on the Conic Sections.

• Zero times infinity is NaN. Try as you might, there is no way to make sense of the question "What is 0 multiplied by ∞?" and the only reasonable answer is "Not a Number."

You won....I am 100% humanitarian and physics makes me sick :)
 

ukok102nak

Active Member
You won....I am 100% humanitarian and physics makes me sick :)

~;> we humans must win the heart of those beast from the infinite darkness
who doesnt know how to love and show mercy and kindness unto every human beings and unto every surroundings on this planet
if we may say so

and you won also
for your pretty sharp to know
that knowledge is nothing without love
indeed

for it shows
as what you indicates unto your signature


:ty:




godbless
unto all always
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I've always had an interest in the philosophical concept of nothingness, but just for a short while I am looking at the concept of infinity. To me it's not near as interesting as nothing, there are so many questions that nothing can bring to the table, but the only question infinity has left me for desert is its reality.

I can't imagine how it would be possible for there to be an infinite amount of things at one time. Some believe that there is an infinite span of space, and less accurately some even believe that about matter/energy.

My thought is, how is it possible for infinity to be represented in physical reality? Really think about it.

I do, however, consider it possible that time is endless and its span therefore is infinite, conceptually speaking. At the same time, though, time is limited and it will always be limited. (Disregarding the idea that time had existed for an eternity previous from this moment, another topic) There may be no end of time, but it can never reach 'infinity'. Nothing can reach infinity, since there is no end to it.

If you think of counting all of the grains of sand on a beach, counting all of the grains of sand on earth, counting how many atoms there are that make up every single sand grain on earth, and then how many atoms there are in the galaxy, lastly the universe, it can seem like there is an endless amount, but doesn't there have to be an exact number?
I'm still trying to figure how the law of thermodynamics fits in with an enternal system.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I think that infinity is impossible because if everything in the Universe is finite then how it can be infinite?

This universe is not infinate, but might as well be from our point of view.
There are undoubtedly many universes. Space may well be infinate.

From a photographers point of view with a normal lens there is very little difference between even a few hundred yards and infinity, when they focus their cameras. What seems to be infinite is always seemingly relative.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
For me, Nothing, Infinity, Time and space are concepts not reality. Our reality is actually moment to moment, it only exists and always exists in the moment.

Looks like concepts can be bent by a sufficient amount of mass, then.

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Infinity is not a number. In infinity is a conceptual abstraction. ∞ + 1 = ∞. You can divide infinity up and still have infinite sets, such as positive integers and negative integers. Both sets are infinite, and neither set intersects the other. (Infinity is not concrete like numbers are.)
.

G. Cantor would not agree with you.

Ciao

- viole
 
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