I like the NHS and I believe it should exist but let's face up to reality, it's crap!
And nothing to be proud of
Everything this country does it messes up
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I don't enjoy Shakespeare
- Thread starter Eddi
- Start date
And nothing to be proud of
Everything this country does it messes up
They are, but unless you have a clear understanding of why they behave in such a fashion, your hatred is misguided. Such behaviors may be the result of indoctrination or upbringing, and a person my not know better.
It depends on one's criteria for who or what is important. In theater and poetry, Shakespeare is more influential than most English-language writers. Whether that metric alone suffices to make him more important overall seems to me a subjective call.
There's also the question of which field one prioritizes, of course. In English-language literature, Shakespeare will almost certainly be in the top-10 most influential writers. In engineering or mathematics, he's almost entirely irrelevant—and he doesn't need to be relevant in either, after all.
If one only studies and prioritizes English, perhaps, but otherwise I would say no.
Wu Wei
ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
I enjoy watching Shakespeare, do not enjoy reading it, and I have read a lot of it..... basically it is script for a stage play which makes it even more difficult to follow. You must also take into account that the English used by Shakespeare was not common when he wrote it.
Liking or disliking does not make you cultured or uncultured, it is just a personal preference... that is all
I disagree. Liking RF makes one cultured... except for threads discussing literature. Those are too uncultured.
Maybe
But my policy is to avoid the people I dislike as opposed to trying to understand why they are that way
The way I see it, they can carry on being that way elsewhere. So long as they don't actually harm anyone I think that is the best course of action: pretend they don't exist and forget about them
Even that is better than hating them.
I steer clear of toxic people as well, but in my experience, hating another person does more harm to you than it does them.
I am an enormous fan of Shakespeare. I have written a one-man show, basically walking through Shakespeare's life by stringing many passages from many plays, sonnets and poems. It's over 1 1/2 hours of memorization.
Shakespeare can be difficult, yes, but you would be surprised how little you really have to learn about his use of language until you begin to appreciate it. Blank verse (called iambic pentameter, a dreadful phrase) allows for ways to really highlight what the actor really means when speaking as one of Shakespeare's characters. Because blank verse offers a strong metric pattern of 10 beats, alternating soft-strong, soft-strong....so --- de DUM de DUM de DUM de DUM de DUM, it is possible to overlay the natural stresses of English to bring special meaning to the words when they are spoken. Here's an example from Julius Caesar.
Try reading the first line out loud, the way you would naturally say it -- Cow-ards die ma-ny times be-fore their deaths.
Now try saying it with the stress given by blank verse -- Cow-ards die ma-ny times be-fore their deaths. See how the first syllable of cowards is weakened? See how the whole cadence is thrown off?
Now try the second line: The Val-iant ne-ver taste of death but once. You would say this the same way whether in blank verse or not, but the effect is to strengthen valiant taste death once. It leaves a stronger impression because the metre of blank verse supports the thought spoken.
And sometimes, this just for fun, when you learn a little about the language of his day, you can spot some pretty raunchy stuff. Here's a sonnet:
So this sonnet is Will S. speaking to his one-time mistress, who seems to be going about with other men, and he is essentially stating his lust and begging for intercourse. He uses the metaphore of the ocean, which can accept all the water that pours into it through rivers and rain without overflowing, to suggest that she can handle him -- one more lover -- as well as all her others.
Try reading it again, and see where you would insert the name Will, or the meaning lust, or penis, or vagina. (Example: Wilt thou, whose will is large and spacious, not once vouchsafe to hide my will in thine?) Now, isn't that a whole lot more interesting.
Shakespeare can be difficult, yes, but you would be surprised how little you really have to learn about his use of language until you begin to appreciate it. Blank verse (called iambic pentameter, a dreadful phrase) allows for ways to really highlight what the actor really means when speaking as one of Shakespeare's characters. Because blank verse offers a strong metric pattern of 10 beats, alternating soft-strong, soft-strong....so --- de DUM de DUM de DUM de DUM de DUM, it is possible to overlay the natural stresses of English to bring special meaning to the words when they are spoken. Here's an example from Julius Caesar.
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Try reading the first line out loud, the way you would naturally say it -- Cow-ards die ma-ny times be-fore their deaths.
Now try saying it with the stress given by blank verse -- Cow-ards die ma-ny times be-fore their deaths. See how the first syllable of cowards is weakened? See how the whole cadence is thrown off?
Now try the second line: The Val-iant ne-ver taste of death but once. You would say this the same way whether in blank verse or not, but the effect is to strengthen valiant taste death once. It leaves a stronger impression because the metre of blank verse supports the thought spoken.
And sometimes, this just for fun, when you learn a little about the language of his day, you can spot some pretty raunchy stuff. Here's a sonnet:
Whoever hath her wish, thou hast thy Will,
And Will to boot, and Will in overplus;
More than enough am I that vex thee still,
To thy sweet will making addition thus.
Wilt thou, whose will is large and spacious,
Not once vouchsafe to hide my will in thine?
Shall will in others seem right gracious,
And in my will no fair acceptance shine?
The sea, all water, yet receives rain still,
And in abundance addeth to his store;
So thou being rich in Will add to thy Will
One will of mine, to make thy large Will more.
Let no unkind, no fair beseechers kill;
Think all but one, and me in that one Will.
Hard to read, and doesn't make a lot of sense, right? But note that word, "will" (and include "wilt"). It occurs 14 times. But what does it mean? In Shakespeare's day, "will" had several meanings: it meant intention, desire, lover, lust, and the organs of that lust, both male and female. And of course, it was also William Shakespeare's own name!So this sonnet is Will S. speaking to his one-time mistress, who seems to be going about with other men, and he is essentially stating his lust and begging for intercourse. He uses the metaphore of the ocean, which can accept all the water that pours into it through rivers and rain without overflowing, to suggest that she can handle him -- one more lover -- as well as all her others.
Try reading it again, and see where you would insert the name Will, or the meaning lust, or penis, or vagina. (Example: Wilt thou, whose will is large and spacious, not once vouchsafe to hide my will in thine?) Now, isn't that a whole lot more interesting.
I think that if hatred motivates you to successfully cut a person from your life then that can be a good thing. You can then forget about them and the hatred will leave your system
I agree that hatred is not a good thing to have
Yes.
And also on what requires unproductive
effort in order to glean equivalent value.
It's influential among those influenced.
I found it less accessible, & less insightful
than modern authors.
Shakespeare is useful for quotes & correcting
them, but this doesn't require wading thru
the entire source work.
Shakespeare is no Douglas Adams.
Not all that relevant, although I'd add that students
need more basic practical skills than are earned in school,
eg, practical basic math, their legal environment, finance.
Those are desperately needed things that shouldn't be
pushed aside for ancient literature of dubious value.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I love this! I keep threatening my family that I'm going to learn it and say it at family reunions. Beats Jabberwocky.
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.
I love it! And I love this scene in Henry V!
St Crispin's Day Speech - Wikipedia
I think Shakespeare is valuable to understand because he had a major cultural and literary influence that had far-reaching effects in the following centuries. If one studies and deeply understands his work, they understand a significant influence in British and European history, culture, and art. I would say that makes him quite important.
I think cultural and literary education are useful to have along with the things you listed. I wouldn't assume that teaching the one would necessarily conflict with teaching the other.
If you value understanding that historical time
period's literature, then go for it. I see less value
in it than with other pursuits, literary & otherwise.
Schools have limited time to devote to subjects.
The more Shakespeare is covered, the less that
something else is. Shakespeare is more meaningful
to you than it is to me & many others.
You could make a better argument for reading the
Bible....it has far far more effect on our lives than
Shakespeare.
Wu Wei
ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
well that was an uncultured post.... your invitation to afternoon tea and Shakespeare has been revoked
You are torturing me!
Kenneth Branagh does quite a good job of it:I love this! I keep threatening my family that I'm going to learn it and say it at family reunions. Beats Jabberwocky.
But we in it shall be rememberèd—
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.
I love it! And I love this scene in Henry V!
St Crispin's Day Speech - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I am so sorry! I loved it, sorry!
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I totally agree! Actually I love that movie.
Your loss I reckon. But it's not surprising that not all are infatuated with Shakespeare, even if much of the language and expressions used have come down to us as mentioned - so memorable at least. Perhaps we were lucky at my school, given we studied Julius Caesar for GCE, saw the film as a group (the classic 1953 version, with Marlon Brando, James Mason, Sir John Gielgud, etc.), acted scenes in class, and got behind the meaning of the various bits of text. I quite enjoyed it all even if I made a fool of myself in front of the class.
Have you not been watching this - surely even better when one does have some affinity to the Bard beforehand:
