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Can the Living Pray for the Dead & Vice Versa?

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
For what reason should the living pray for the dead, and vica versa?

I beg your pardon?

What I said is that the living can pray for the dead, but the dead cannot pray for the living. Because they are, well, dead. And seeing dead people praying is not exactly in the mainstream.

Of course, since I am a naturalist, I think that when the living is praying for the dead, she is just wasting her time, althought I cannot exclude that she might get some measurable psychological comfort by doing that. Alas, comfort for her, not for the dead. Cause the latter will stay, well, dead.

Ciao

- viole
 

shava

Active Member
I beg your pardon?

What I said is that the living can pray for the dead, but the dead cannot pray for the living. Because they are, well, dead. And seeing dead people praying is not exactly in the mainstream.

Of course, since I am a naturalist, I think that when the living is praying for the dead, she is just wasting her time, althought I cannot exclude that she might get some measurable psychological comfort by doing that. Alas, comfort for her, not for the dead. Cause the latter will stay, well, dead.

Ciao

- viole
I'm simply stating that praying for the dead isn't scriptural, as it's forbidden, although, I do understand what you're implying.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
No, the dead are in a spiritual realm, an we are in a physical realm. Read the story of the rich man and Lazarus and you will see what I'm saying is true.
Luke 16:19-31New King James Version (NKJV)
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fella]'>[a] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Wrong. There is no dead. The souls that passed on or spirits are here on earth. Most of my family in many in my culture in funerals pray for our loved ones who they believe are in heaven. I pray with spirits of kin, humanity, history, that are on earth.

What does Lazarus have to do with my faith and my family's belief?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I'm simply stating that praying for the dead isn't scriptural, as it's forbidden, although, I do understand what you're implying.
It actually is found in the Apocryphal, so there is evidence that it was at the least done. Secondly, do you believe that any communication through prayer is possible between the dead and the living, because if not, then I guess praying to Jesus has to be out of the question. Finally, "the communication of saints" is a reference to this interplay through prayer between the living and the dead.
 

shava

Active Member
The Apocryphal is not in the inspired word of God, thus it's not inspired. Praying to God isn't the same as praying to an individual human that is deceased, as God is deity, and man is not. God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit have always existed, man has not.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Apocryphal is not in the inspired word of God, thus it's not inspired. Praying to God isn't the same as praying to an individual human that is deceased, as God is deity, and man is not. God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit have always existed, man has not.
How do you know it's not "the inspired word of God"? Evidence please.

If you know anything about Apocryphal, there was no decision reached when the canon was decided upon, instead referring to it needing further consideration. Some local churches had used it and some hadn't, and the committee couldn't reach a decision one way or another, so they included as sub-texts after the N.T. canon that's used today, which is also what Luther also did when translating his Bible into German.

Also, if Jesus is God, then why does it say in the N.T. that Jesus prayed to God?
 

shava

Active Member
How do you know it's not "the inspired word of God"? Evidence please.

If you know anything about Apocryphal, there was no decision reached when the canon was decided upon, instead referring to it needing further consideration. Some local churches had used it and some hadn't, and the committee couldn't reach a decision one way or another, so they included as sub-texts after the N.T. canon that's used today, which is also what Luther also did when translating his Bible into German.

Also, if Jesus is God, then why does it say in the N.T. that Jesus prayed to God?
Because it's not in the bible, and I feel confident that if it were to be in the bible that God is more than capable of making sure what he wanted us to know got to us. John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Because it's not in the bible, and I feel confident that if it were to be in the bible that God is more than capable of making sure what he wanted us to know got to us. John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
First of all, it's maybe not in YOUR Bible but is in many others, including the Christian Bible I have near me right now.

Secondly, you didn't answer my question, namely how does it make one iota of sense of Jesus praying to God if Jesus is God?

Thirdly, Jesus being of God makes much more theological sense than Jesus being God, especially since Jesus often referred to "the Father", which logically has to be separate from him. Also, "Lord" is a title that does not always refer to God as it means "overseer" in Koine Greek. Also, Isaiah has nothing to do with Jesus, which even some Christian Bible commentaries will tell you.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
We Baha'is have many prayers for the departed

"Pray for them as they pray for you! When you do not know it, and are in a receptive attitude, they are able to make suggestions to you, if you are in difficulty. "(Abdul-Baha in London)
 

shava

Active Member
What do you think?
No. Praying for the dead is not a biblical concept. Our prayers have no bearing on someone once he or she has died. The reality is that, at the point of death, one’s eternal destiny is confirmed. Either he is saved through faith in Christ and is in heaven where he is experiencing rest and joy in God’s presence, or he is in torment in hell. The story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar provides us with a vivid illustration of this truth. Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied (Luke 16:19-31).
 

shava

Active Member
First of all, it's maybe not in YOUR Bible but is in many others, including the Christian Bible I have near me right now.

Secondly, you didn't answer my question, namely how does it make one iota of sense of Jesus praying to God if Jesus is God?

Thirdly, Jesus being of God makes much more theological sense than Jesus being God, especially since Jesus often referred to "the Father", which logically has to be separate from him. Also, "Lord" is a title that does not always refer to God as it means "overseer" in Koine Greek. Also, Isaiah has nothing to do with Jesus, which even some Christian Bible commentaries will tell you.
May I ask what bible did you get this info from that says what you implied?
 

lovesong

:D
Premium Member
What do you think?
I don't believe the dead pray for the living. What would they even pray for? The dead can help the living, guide them and speak to them, but prayer? That wouldn't do much of anything.
Similarly, why should the living pray for the dead? The dead have already, well, died. They are in the afterlife and no amount of prayer can do anything about the fact that they are dead. We can, however, contact them. We can invoke and evoke them through necromancy, we can pray to them (although "prayer" might not be the best word for it, "call to them" would work better) for advise, guidance, love, help, or comfort. We can make offerings to please the dead, we can learn from them and comfort them through their transitions into dead. But just as the dead praying for us wouldn't do much, neither would us praying for them do much either. We could pray to the gods of death in hopes that they will help our loved ones settle in the afterlife, but that would be about it.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
What do you think?
I do think the living can pray for the dead as I've seen it countless times in the ICU when a person passes and their loved ones pray for them, or the pastor/priest does. As for the dead praying for the living, I think, as a Buddhist, that higher souls can send guidance to lower ones but I would not necessarily call that praying.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
You can play it any way you want but I haven't sidestepped anything. Ask me any straight-forward question and you'll get a straight-forward answer, although I'll not claim that it must be correct. I don't do "sideshows", which is sorta funny in that I have been accused as being too direct and blunt at times.
I am going to have to side with Penguin on this one Metis. For me, the two statements don't jive either. Believing God created the universe has nothing to do with whether the dead can pray for us and vice versa. I understand that the two statements are based on faith and cannot be substantiated. However, whether God created the universe or not has nothing, IMO, to do with the topic of this thread.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
No one goes to heaven until after judgment day, then those who have been waiting in paradise, or as it's commonly referred to, Abraham's bosom will go when Jesus gathers all the saved, alive and dead and we will all go together. 1 Thessalonians 4:15, King James Bible
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16, King James Bible
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17, King James Bible
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Do you ever have an opinion of your own that is not based on a book? You have clearly shown yourself to be Paulian in nature and not truly Christian and you have to back any one sentence you make with several verses, which, IMO, is proselytizing and against the rules here. What would happen if you have to think on your own?
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
The Apocryphal is not in the inspired word of God, thus it's not inspired. Praying to God isn't the same as praying to an individual human that is deceased, as God is deity, and man is not. God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit have always existed, man has not.
You seem pretty specific on what you consider the inspired word of God. Do you consider the Talmud inspired by God? What of the Upanishads or the Vedas or the Qu'ran or The Teachings of The Buddha or any of the hundreds of other sacred texts? Many religions do consider them to be the word of God. Should they abandon those books simply on your say so and why would you think they would do that?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is God's word not Jesus'. He (Father) sent his son to share his (God's) word to people. Because Jesus is the son, his father called him the Word (God's). Like Jr to a Sr.

Whatever the son says he is the representative of what his father says. That Is in scripture. Hard to miss especially Hebrews the first or secone verse. "Image of" not Is.

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and tr

Word is god's words. His words were spirit to the prophets. He made his word flesh by his "son" Not himself. Son is very important. It doesnt belittle god's Word (his word through his son). Why not accept god's words are through his human son? Why cant god talk through the image of God's word through human he calls the Word?

ohn 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

You are one with Christ. This verse prooves nothing.

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

All authority of the Father, by the Father is given to his son. The son not being god doesnt mean he doesnt have the authority, glory, etc of god. They are two separate people joined by one nature. One source ans the other he image of that source. Why and how is that hard to understand?

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Same here and what metis said. Lord is not a unique title nor is god. All authority is given to jesus.

Jesus says no one calls anyone Father (not even himself) but him above. Why ask me but ask the father who sent me. There is a boat load of scriptures.

How does jesus being the son belittle his place as God's Word?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
No. Praying for the dead is not a biblical concept. Our prayers have no bearing on someone once he or she has died. The reality is that, at the point of death, one’s eternal destiny is confirmed. Either he is saved through faith in Christ and is in heaven where he is experiencing rest and joy in God’s presence, or he is in torment in hell. The story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar provides us with a vivid illustration of this truth. Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied (Luke 16:19-31).
But we well know that the early church believed it was possible, and it stands to common sense if one believes in heaven. Why can't people here pray for those in heaven or maybe those not yet judged? Why can't those in heaven pray to God for people still here on Earth? And if wasn't a belief, then why does it show up in the Apocrypha even if you don't accept it as divinely inspired? Did you forget that it says that many other things transpired that were not written?

The reality is that we well know from early records that the church believe in "the communion of saints", which shows up in the Apostle's Creed that was written much later. I've been in the catacombs in Rome, and there some would meet to pray, including for the dead. We know this is what they did because of the writings.

Do I personally pray for the dead? No, but I well know the early church did.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
May I ask what bible did you get this info from that says what you implied?
I think you're reffering to the use of "Lord", so please read this:

Lord is an appellation for a person or deity who has authority, control, or power over others acting like a master, a chief, or a ruler. The appellation can also denote certain persons who hold a title of the peerage in the United Kingdom, or are entitled to courtesy titles. The collective "Lords" can refer to a group or body of peers.... -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord

The English word "Lord" is derived from the Hebrew "Adonai", which also is a name for God, and it means the same as what I wrote above.
 
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