Can the Living Pray for the Dead & Vice Versa?

[Unveiled Artist]

What do you think?

Yes. In America we give reverence to he "dead" at every religious funeral especially in my culture or heritage. We pray for the dead as in some believe that giving them their thoughts theyd hear them in heaven. While myself pray for the living souls who passed and can still benefit from our prayers, help, and conversation.

I honestly dont see why not?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In regards to the latter, you wouldn't see them because they would be in heaven-- unless you're already there?

But of course you can see them. Theyre just playing peek-a-boo with you.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Certainly. We call it the Communion of Saints. We're a family and we help each other. Death is no barrier to this.

 

[Zigzangle]

Not much point in praying for the dead, once dead you stay dead, imo.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In regards to the latter, you wouldn't see them because they would be in heaven-- unless you're already there?

If you're saying that there's no way to know for sure that they aren't there, why would anyone be justified in believing that they are there?

 

[metis]

If you're saying that there's no way to know for sure that they aren't there, why would anyone be justified in believing that they are there?

Generally speaking, religious faith is based on beliefs minus objective evidence to support them. My OP deals exclusively with this approach.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Generally speaking, religious faith is based on beliefs minus objective evidence to support them. My OP deals exclusively with this approach.

If that's the case, then you have an even lower opinion of religious faith than I do.

Even I try to be open to the possibility that religious beliefs might be rational (even if I can't see how myself).

 

[metis]

If that's the case, then you have an even lower opinion of religious faith than I do.

Even I try to be open to the possibility that religious beliefs might be rational (even if I can't see how myself).

Check out my signature statement below for a clarification as to where I'm coming from, and I will try to answer any questions you have-- but I will charge you for them. $

 

[YmirGF]

Can the Living Pray for the Dead & Vice Versa?

Sure. Why not? We know that the living pray for the dead in traditions all over the world throughout history. What we don't know or even could know is if the dead pray for us. How does one verify that puppy?

What do you think?

I'm not a fan of praying in general though I can appreciate the sentiments behind some forms of prayers. I can't quite decide if praying is little more than ego stroking or an act of desperation however.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Check out my signature statement below for a clarification as to where I'm coming from, and I will try to answer any questions you have-- but I will charge you for them. $

Your signature doesn't seem to have anything to do with what we're talking about here.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm not a fan of praying in general though I can appreciate the sentiments behind some forms of prayers. I can't quite decide if praying is little more than ego stroking or an act of desperation however.

My take on prayer: it relieves the desire to help others without helping others. Saying "I'll pray for you" is effectively like saying "I acknowledge your needs, but instead of lending a hand, I'll just help myself come to terms with your situation."

No wonder Robert G. Ingersoll would respond to "I'll pray for you" with "I forgive you."

 

[metis]

Your signature doesn't seem to have anything to do with what we're talking about here.

You do understand what it says, right? And my pointing it out should deal with your point here: "Even I try to be open to the possibility that religious beliefs might be rational (even if I can't see how myself)." So, I don't know where the confusion comes in.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You do understand what it says, right?

I know what it says. I don't know what you meant by it, apparently.

And my pointing it out should deal with your point here: "Even I try to be open to the possibility that religious beliefs might be rational (even if I can't see how myself)." So, I don't know where the confusion comes in.

Maybe it'll help you see where I'm coming from if I paraphrase your two statements as I interpret them:

"Generally speaking, religious faith is based on beliefs minus objective evidence to support them." = you think that religious beliefs are usually unsupported by evidence.

"Whatever caused this universe I'll call 'God' and pretty much just leave it at that." = for you personally, you call the cause of the universe "God" regardless of what that turns out to be.

Again: I really don't see what these statements have to do with each other:

- there's more to religious belief than just creator-gods.

- your personal approach to religion doesn't somehow make someone else's approach to religion rational.

- there's a difference between defining a term as you've done (which generally requires no evidence) and justifying a claim as many religious beliefs make (which generally does require evidence, but you say this evidence doesn't exist).

 

[metis]

... = you think that religious beliefs are usually unsupported by evidence.

= for you personally, you call the cause of the universe "God" regardless of what that turns out to be.

Correct interpretations on both counts.

Again: I really don't see what these statements have to do with each other:

- there's more to religious belief than just creator-gods.

I didn't imply there wasn't.

- your personal approach to religion doesn't somehow make someone else's approach to religion rational.

Are you sure you worded this correctly?

Secondly, I don't judge someone else's opinion on religion as being rational or irrational. Just because we can't find objective evidence for something doesn't mean it's "irrational". Therefore, religious beliefs do matter for billions of people, and I accept that even if I don't share their beliefs.

By chance have you ever read "The Power of Myth" by Campbell?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Correct interpretations on both counts.

Then I still don't see what the one has to do with the other.

And I'm getting close to the point where I'm going to dismiss this whole sideshow as your way of avoiding the topic.

I didn't imply there wasn't.

Are you sure you worded this correctly?

Secondly, I don't judge someone else's opinion on religion as being rational or irrational. Just because we can't find objective evidence for something doesn't mean it's "irrational".

Would you prefer "unjustified"? You did say that religious beliefs aren't supported by evidence.

I think it's irrational to make a factual conclusion without proper support, but if it will save us a tangent, we can just say that the beliefs we're talking about don't have support and leave it at that.

Therefore, religious beliefs do matter for billions of people, and I accept that even if I don't share their beliefs.

How important a belief is to a person is a separate question to whether it's rationally supported.

By chance have you ever read "The Power of Myth" by Campbell?

Nope.

 

[metis]

And I'm getting close to the point where I'm going to dismiss this whole sideshow as your way of avoiding the topic.

You can play it any way you want but I haven't sidestepped anything. Ask me any straight-forward question and you'll get a straight-forward answer, although I'll not claim that it must be correct. I don't do "sideshows", which is sorta funny in that I have been accused as being too direct and blunt at times.

 

[viole]

What do you think?

I think the living can pray for the dead, but not vice versa.

Ciao

- viole

 

[shava]

Yes. In America we give reverence to he "dead" at every religious funeral especially in my culture or heritage. We pray for the dead as in some believe that giving them their thoughts theyd hear them in heaven. While myself pray for the living souls who passed and can still benefit from our prayers, help, and conversation.

I honestly dont see why not?

No, the dead are in a spiritual realm, an we are in a physical realm. Read the story of the rich man and Lazarus and you will see what I'm saying is true.
Luke 16:19-31New King James Version (NKJV)
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fella]'>[a] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

 

[shava]

No one goes to heaven until after judgment day, then those who have been waiting in paradise, or as it's commonly referred to, Abraham's bosom will go when Jesus gathers all the saved, alive and dead and we will all go together. 1 Thessalonians 4:15, King James Bible
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16, King James Bible
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17, King James Bible
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[shava]

I think the living can pray for the dead, but not vice versa.

Ciao

- viole

For what reason should the living pray for the dead, and vica versa?