Botfly Evolution

[nazz]

For those not familiar:

Botflies deposit eggs on a host, or sometimes use an intermediate vector such as the common housefly, mosquitoes, and even a species of tick (Dermatobia hominis). The smaller fly is firmly held by the botfly female and rotated to a position where the botfly attaches some 30 eggs to the body under the wings. Larvae from these eggs, stimulated by the warmth and proximity of a large mammal host, drop onto its skin and burrow underneath.[6] Intermediate vectors are often used since a number of animal hosts recognise the approach of a botfly and flee.[7]

Botfly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How do you explain this from a purely naturalistic perspective using the known mechanics of evolution? Specifically how does the botfly "know" to do this? Obviously it does have the intelligence to understand the meanings of its actions.

 

[Nietzsche]

For those not familiar:



Botfly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How do you explain this from a purely naturalistic perspective using the known mechanics of evolution? Specifically how does the botfly "know" to do this? Obviously it does have the intelligence to understand the meanings of its actions.

...

It's a creature who uses a form of parasitism to reproduce. What's shocking here?

 

[nazz]

...

It's a creature who uses a form of parasitism to reproduce. What's shocking here?

Nothing but read my question.

The larger question here is how instinct itself evolves and co-ordinates with physical processes. The botfly is just one of many examples where this needs to be explained.

 

[George-ananda]

I'm sure one can give a purely materialist explanation on how all these billions of things came to happen along with the existence of DNA, etc., etc..
And the countless complex operations needed to make any complex life form happen.

My opinion is life is fostered by beings with a nature intelligence. I know others believe the mechanistic laws of nature are sufficient.

 

[George-ananda]

Nothing but read my question.

The larger question here is how instinct itself evolves and co-ordinates with physical processes. The botfly is just one of many examples where this needs to be explained.

My opinion on this is that animals have a group soul with others of its species. A monkey can learn from the experiences of another monkey without direct connection. This soul guides their instincts.

(Humans are the next stage of evolution and have individualized souls)

I did not form my opinions from my own musings but from the teachings of masters I hold in respect.

 

[mainliner]

For those not familiar:



Botfly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How do you explain this from a purely naturalistic perspective using the known mechanics of evolution? Specifically how does the botfly "know" to do this? Obviously it does have the intelligence to understand the meanings of its actions.

because they have brains ...... Its natural instinct.

its interesting that people say " creatures learn from there parents and continue to do what they do".... Not all creatures do.

a shoal of fish will swim thousands of miles to spawn but die before the eggs have hatch......this new unborn shoal of fish have no parents and no knowledge of what to do because they have no one to learn it off.......this unborn shoal of eggs( fish) continue the cycle with no contact with a parent figure........how?

i believe in the next life we will be all knowing about life........yet a great wonder will still remain.

IT IS WHAT IT IS

 

[nazz]

My opinion on this is that animals have a group soul with others of its species. A monkey can learn from the experiences of another monkey without direct connection. This soul guides their instincts.

(Humans are the next stage of evolution and have individualized souls)

I did not form my opinions from my own musings but from the teachings of masters I hold in respect.

That could be but these botflies don't have the intelligence to remotely understand their own reproduction process. They are programmed to do so but what is doing the programming?

 

[Nietzsche]

Nothing but read my question.

The larger question here is how instinct itself evolves and co-ordinates with physical processes. The botfly is just one of many examples where this needs to be explained.

You ever experienced a genuine fight-or-flight response? It's something all animals have. Why would the mating ritual not be similar? It could have been that they did it originally with every animal, but in habitats where the animals figured it out the ones who were using smaller creatures survived. It could very well be simply that it isn't an instinct to do this in particular, but that the ones who were trying to go straight to the 'target' kept on dying. The only ones who survived would have been the ones using the two-step method. Keep that going and eventually botflies only do that because they are descended only from the ones who did it.

 

[nazz]

I'm sure one can give a purely materialist explanation on how all these billions of things came to happen along with the existence of DNA, etc., etc..
And the countless complex operations needed to make any complex life form happen.

The botfly reproduction cycle is an evolutionary needle in a haystack. The instinct involved is another needle in a haystack that happens to coordinate with the first one. The odds of that happening by chance are so astronomical as to defy credulity.

My opinion is life is fostered by beings with a nature intelligence. I know others believe the mechanistic laws of nature are sufficient.

It does cry "designer" to me Evolutionary design--intelligent evolution

 

[nazz]

You ever experienced a genuine fight-or-flight response? It's something all animals have. Why would the mating ritual not be similar? It could have been that they did it originally with every animal, but in habitats where the animals figured it out the ones who were using smaller creatures survived. It could very well be simply that it isn't an instinct to do this in particular, but that the ones who were trying to go straight to the 'target' kept on dying. The only ones who survived would have been the ones using the two-step method. Keep that going and eventually botflies only do that because they are descended only from the ones who did it.

You don't seem to be understanding the question. And botflies use several methods anyway.

 

[mainliner]

That could be but these botflies don't have the intelligence to remotely understand their own reproduction process. They are programmed to do so but what is doing the programming?

god on his laptop lol

 

[George-ananda]

That could be but these botflies don't have the intelligence to remotely understand their own reproduction process. They are programmed to do so but what is doing the programming?

I'm thinking they are controlled by their group/soul from above the physical level. Just like I believe humans are influenced by their soul's wisdom from above the physical level.

 

[nazz]

I'm thinking they are controlled by their group/soul from above the physical level. Just like I believe humans are influenced by their soul's wisdom from above the physical level.

I think what is important is that we both think this can't be simply an unintelligent natural process.

 

[mainliner]

We used to have a dog which we took to a kennel 10 miles away in a car when we went on holiday, she scaled an 8' fence and walk 10 miles back home !!!....... I couldn't even do that without directions

she did it the year after again but she was with an other dog we got which followed her back aswell.....we just don't know how?

funny thing is when she went home we wasn't there .......so she went to grandmas 2 mile down the road. Lol......amazing.

our dogs mother was a working sheep dog on a farm but she never saw her mother working with the sheep.........when we went on walks with the family she used to gather us all together like sheep having never seen her mother do it.......another amazing.

they are clever beyond belief........apart from when they poop on your living room carpet ......then there just daft lol

 

[Jumi]

I'm not a biologist but here are some thoughts:

Most wild animals have "learned" about humans. Ones that didn't have instincts telling them to avoid humans were killed and didn't pass on their genes. Sometimes there are individuals that are different, those will venture into human territory and be killed.

It's the same with botfly and other insects.

 

[mainliner]

Hail to the botfly

 

[Sapiens]

If you

For those not familiar:



Botfly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How do you explain this from a purely naturalistic perspective using the known mechanics of evolution? Specifically how does the botfly "know" to do this? Obviously it does have the intelligence to understand the meanings of its actions.

If you really want to know, all the answers you seek are in Chapter 3 of
The Oestrid Flies: Biology, Host-parasite Relationships, Impact and Management
edited by Douglas D. Colwell, Martin J. R. Hall, Philip J. Scholl. You can buy the book on Amazon.com for $168.17. If your just trying to play stump the biologists with an arcane example to support irreducible complexity, then remember the past failed attempts at that, stop being ignorant and get a life.

 

[nazz]

If you

If you really want to know, all the answers you seek are in Chapter 3 of
The Oestrid Flies: Biology, Host-parasite Relationships, Impact and Management
edited by Douglas D. Colwell, Martin J. R. Hall, Philip J. Scholl. You can buy the book on Amazon.com for $168.17. If your just trying to play stump the biologists with an arcane example to support irreducible complexity, then remember the past failed attempts at that, stop being ignorant and get a life.

I'm not going to spend that much money on a book that may not even answer my question. Do you know the answer or not? If not maybe you should buy the book so you can explain it to me.

And I wasn't making any argument for irreducible complexity per se,

 

[nazz]

I'm not a biologist but here are some thoughts:

Most wild animals have "learned" about humans. Ones that didn't have instincts telling them to avoid humans were killed and didn't pass on their genes. Sometimes there are individuals that are different, those will venture into human territory and be killed.

It's the same with botfly and other insects.

I seriously doubt the brains of botflies are suited to learning any behavior. I think they are driven purely by instinct.

 

[Parsimony]

If botflies have a generic instinct template of "lay eggs on X" where X depends on certain alleles, then mutations could change the target animal. I imagine many may have had X mutate so that they were driven to lay eggs on unsuitable hosts. Then you had one that mutated so that it laid eggs on a mosquito. Then that presented an advantage because the mosquito could do all the work for the botfly in terms of travelling and risking being harmed by the host. The advantage caused that allele to spread. At least, I can imagine such a scenario being plausible.