An Earnest Plea for Unity

[jeager106]

Slowly but surely, dear jeager — and with God as my Witness — the seeds of love and brotherhood amongst the followers of the Faiths of Abraham are being sown!

Really? It's been thousands of years and there is still NO unity among the different religions.
Christian religions are no different that non-Christian religions.
As far as I know there are no killing wars in this Country among Christians but elsewhere it's a
different story especially in non-Christian cultures where being Christian is a bit "frowned upon
to say the least.
Just "google" violence against Christians or Christian violence against Christians
and see for yourself if you like.
I well recall a man bragging to me that he chased J.W.'s down the road on his m.c.
while SHOOTING at them to drive them away.
It happens even here in the U.S.
Was it that long ago when in the U.S. south that Catholics were driven away and
priests HUNG?
W.A.S.P. at it's ugliest.

 

[Tumah]

· I use the term “children” in the literary sense.

· What impact does any of this have on the facts that they ALL worship one God, and revere many of the same individuals, especially Abraham? What you're referring to deals with matters that do differ among us, but in the end, must not be sources of contention and strife, don't you agree?

I don't know any Jews or Christians that especially revere Abraham more than other Biblical figures. The only reason Abraham is used as the name for the umbrella term, is so that it could include Muslims as they part from Jews in the next generation.
But either way, this has nothing to do with anything. I'm not giving reasons to argue, I'm saying that you are not presenting valid reasons for peace.

·Not relevant?! That's not what the positive posts in this thread say. One came from a Christian, and another from a Muslim. You, Tumah, seem to be the only one with the issue here as for relevance. That's fine, but don't ever try to say that what anyone speaks is irrelevant just because it's from a different religious perspective.

Yes, because as Raahim pointed out, no one will disagree with the concept of peace and harmony, and neither do I. But why don't you ask him if its true that we are all serving Allah and whether its true that Allah brought forth all four religions?

· Islam began among Arabs, who are descendants of Ishmael through Hagar, not Keturah.

Is that what your religion teaches? Its not what mine does.

[/quote]Christians, having started from Jews, can rightfully lay claim to being the sons and daughters of Abraham.[/quote]
No, that makes no sense whatsoever. Jews descend from Abraham, literally. Christians (besides for some converts) do not. There is no comparison there. If someone opens a similar store to my son in competition, does he become my son as well?

Same thing for Bahá'ís. Speaking of whom, our Founder, Bahá'u'lláh, was descended from one of the sons of Keturah.

According to your religion.

So what are you saying here?

That not everything you believe I believe and if you want to speak to people that are not you, you need to use more universal phraseology.

 

[Sundance]

I don't know any Jews or Christians that especially revere Abraham more than other Biblical figures. The only reason Abraham is used as the name for the umbrella term, is so that it could include Muslims as they part from Jews in the next generation.
But either way, this has nothing to do with anything. I'm not giving reasons to argue, I'm saying that you are not presenting valid reasons for peace.


Yes, because as Raahim pointed out, no one will disagree with the concept of peace and harmony, and neither do I. But why don't you ask him if its true that we are all serving Allah and whether its true that Allah brought forth all four religions?


Is that what your religion teaches? Its not what mine does.

No, that makes no sense whatsoever. Jews descend from Abraham, literally. Christians (besides for some converts) do not. There is no comparison there. If someone opens a similar store to my son in competition, does he become my son as well?

According to your religion.

That not everything you believe I believe and if you want to speak to people that are not you, you need to use more universal phraseology.

· Yes, I know. But you completely missed what I'm saying. Christians are, of course, mostly not physically descended from Abraham. However, they can rightfully claim that continuity of faith. Why else is the TNK considered part of the Christian Bible?

· My religion is the only one which would give Raahim theological issues, because it came after the Islamic Religion. Even still, though, he can get with what I'm saying! The four of us need to stop the arguing and fighting! Judaism and Christianity are considered legitimately revealed by Allah in Islam. Have you asked a Muslim, or read the Qur'an?

· This is true. It is tradition in our Faith.

· And once again, that's fine, Tumah! Although, it must be asked: why, in spite of any theological disagreement or any difference of faith, is what I'm saying irrelevant?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think, all people should be in unity, because that will make the world a better world to live.
When people fight with each other, they effect the whole world in a negative way.
For example, if Sunni and Shia, live in peace and unity, that has a possitive on everyone else in the world. Or if Arabs and Israelites live in peace and unity, it will have an effect on the whole earth,...etc.
The whole humanity maybe likened to One Body. If any part of it, is inflicted with a problem, it will effect the happiness of the whole body.

 

[Sundance]

I think, all people should be in unity, because that will make the world a better world to live.
When people fight with each other, they effect the whole world in a negative way.
For example, if Sunni and Shia, live in peace and unity, that has a possitive on everyone else in the world. Or if Arabs and Israelites live in peace and unity, it will have an effect on the whole earth,...etc.
The whole humanity maybe likened to One Body. If any part of it, is inflicted with a problem, it will effect the happiness of the whole body.

Exactly!

 

[Tumah]

· Yes, I know. But you completely missed what I'm saying. Christians are, of course, mostly not physically descended from Abraham. However, they can rightfully claim that continuity of faith. Why else is the TNK considered part of the Christian Bible?

This is not true according to my religion.
The fact that the Tanach is part of the Christian Bible only means that they are relying on the authenticity of the Tanach to lend their own Bible authenticity. It doesn't mean that this is an effective method of creating an authentic religion of G-d. If I steal your patented idea, but add a few things to it, does that make me less of a thief?

My religion is the only one which would give Raahim theological issues, because it came after the Islamic Religion. Even still, though, he can get with what I'm saying! The four of us need to stop the arguing and fighting!

Again, the concept of peace is understandable and universal. That is not what I have a problem with. Its your assumption that your religion's theological ideas have importance to me.

Judaism and Christianity are considered legitimately revealed by Allah in Islam. Have you asked a Muslim, or read the Qur'an?

Judaism is considered legitimately revealed by G-d to Jews.
Judaism and Christianity are considered legitimately revealed by God to Christians.
Judaism and Christianity and Islam are considered legitimately revealed by Allah to Muslims.
Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Baha'i are considered legitimately revealed by Baha to Baha'i.

Do you see how that works?
I'm Jewish.

And once again, that's fine, Tumah! Although, it must be asked: why, in spite of any theological disagreement or any difference of faith, is what I'm saying irrelevant?

Because you chose to bring your theology into what should have been a universally phrased statement. Your religion is not universally accepted. So by bringing it up, you are limiting the scope of people that will relate to your ideas. When you want to make a universally accepted statement, its best to couch it in universally accepted terms.
Which brings us to me here, disagreeing with all the elements of your OP that are not universal.

 

[Tarheeler]

We argue and fight, kill each other, make war with one another.

How about we just say that, as members of the human race, we're in this together and we should find a way to exist in peace and leave the religious overtones out of it.

I find the term "Abrahamic" to be almost as useless as "Judaeo-Christian", and there really is little that binds the members of the eight religions generally thought to make up that group (I noticed that you only included four of those in your OP though) other than claiming to be the "new and correct" version of the Truth (tm) that replaces the one that came before it.

 

[Sundance]

This is not true according to my religion.
The fact that the Tanach is part of the Christian Bible only means that they are relying on the authenticity of the Tanach to lend their own Bible authenticity. It doesn't mean that this is an effective method of creating an authentic religion of G-d. If I steal your patented idea, but add a few things to it, does that make me less of a thief?


Again, the concept of peace is understandable and universal. That is not what I have a problem with. Its your assumption that your religion's theological ideas have importance to me.

Judaism is considered legitimately revealed by G-d to Jews.
Judaism and Christianity are considered legitimately revealed by God to Christians.
Judaism and Christianity and Islam are considered legitimately revealed by Allah to Muslims.
Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Baha'i are considered legitimately revealed by Baha to Baha'i.

Do you see how that works?
I'm Jewish.


Because you chose to bring your theology into what should have been a universally phrased statement. Your religion is not universally accepted. So by bringing it up, you are limiting the scope of people that will relate to your ideas. When you want to make a universally accepted statement, its best to couch it in universally accepted terms.
Which brings us to me here, disagreeing with all the elements of your OP that are not universal.

Or, to address independently your first objection, they either built upon the foundations laid by Judaism or they tell the same stories in different ways. In either case, they acknowledge those influences in very significantly positive ways. The early Christians, including Paul the Apostle, having been DEVOUT JEWS, would have regarded the Tanach as their “Bible”. It was only after the mass conversion of Gentiles that a New Testament was added. Also, what are you implying by the hypothetical question that you ask? Do you dare imply that the later three religions are plagiarisms? That Christians, and by extension, Muslims and Bahá'ís stole from y'all, without giving due credit? God forbid! To answer your question, if it's not hypothetical, if you don't acknowledge my influences on your invention, but rather claim them as your own influences, THAT is theft.

My religion doesn't have to mean anything to you. If what I'm ultimately saying strikes a chord with you, then this post has served its purpose.


You're Jewish, which is absolutely wonderful, Tumah! When you say that Bahá'ís believe in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are considered divinely revealed Religions, you 100% speak the truth. I'm Bahá'í, so anything that I'd say or post or write is, ultimately, going to be coloured by my faith (which, BTW, is built on the very same foundations as the other two: those of Judaism), so my apologies if my speaking from my own perspective has caused any sort of discomfort for you.

 

[Sundance]

How about we just say that, as members of the human race, we're in this together and we should find a way to exist in peace and leave the religious overtones out of it.

I find the term "Abrahamic" to be almost as useless as "Judaeo-Christian", and there really is little that binds the members of the eight religions generally thought to make up that group (I noticed that you only included four of those in your OP though) other than claiming to be the "new and correct" version of the Truth (tm) that replaces the one that came before it.

Once again, Tarheeler, understood. To be fair, though, there are shared concepts between them all.

 

[Tumah]

Or, to address independently your first objection, they either built upon the foundations laid by Judaism or they tell the same stories in different ways. In either case, they acknowledge those influences in very significantly positive ways. The early Christians, including Paul the Apostle, having been DEVOUT JEWS, would have regarded the Tanach as their “Bible”. It was only after the mass conversion of Gentiles that a New Testament was added.

This is your - and their belief. However the Jewish belief is that they were all sinners that left the way of G-d to create their own man-made way, which is unacceptable. So you - because of your religious beliefs see their religion in a positive light, while I, because of my religious beliefs see their religion in a negative light. Since we don't share the same perception of their religion, if we want to discuss a concept that is common between us, its best to couch it in terms that both religions can accept.

Also, what are you implying by the hypothetical question that you ask? Do you dare imply that the later three religions are plagiarisms? That Christians, and by extension, Muslims and Bahá'ís stole from y'all, without giving due credit? God forbid! To answer your question, if it's not hypothetical, if you don't acknowledge my influences on your invention, but rather claim them as your own influences, THAT is theft.

Well, its not the credit obviously, because that's not a problem. Its that all the other religions that "descend from" Judaism, use the authenticity of Judaism as the basis to build their own new non-Divinely inspired religions. They used something that doesn't belong to them, to create a new product that wasn't from G-d.

My religion doesn't have to mean anything to you. If what I'm ultimately saying strikes a chord with you, then this post has served its purpose.

That's true. But you can find more universal acceptance, if you can say it in terms that everyone can accept. This is how you speak neutrally.

You're Jewish, which is absolutely wonderful, Tumah! When you say that Bahá'ís believe in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are considered divinely revealed Religions, you 100% speak the truth. I'm Bahá'í, so anything that I'd say or post or write is, ultimately, going to be coloured by my faith (which, BTW, is built on the very same foundations as the other two: those of Judaism), so my apologies if my speaking from my own perspective has caused any sort of discomfort for you.

Again, there is no problem if the concepts that you speak of are derived from your faith. But when you want to present them, you need to present them in a way that is applicable to all.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

There would be no room for that, Scots. It would be futile. All of the Abrahamic religions recognize that God is the Creator of all people, regardless of their religions, y'know? Rooting out the sources of contention and strife among one another means that peace in the world will have finally be achieved.

So how would these newly-united Abrahamic religions interact with non-Abrahamic religions? Do they have a great track-record of being tolerant of such faiths as it is? It doesn't seem that way to me.

I'm not questioning your goal; getting Abrahamics to stop persecuting & being jerks to one another is a great goal - but not if it means such intolerance is instead focused solely on those who do not subscribe to a non-Abrahamic faith.

 

[Tarheeler]

To be fair, though, there are shared concepts between them all.

While you maintain that, there are millions who disagree with you.
But that would be a topic for debate in another area of the forum.

 

[Sundance]

While you maintain that, there are millions who disagree with you.
But that would be a topic for debate in another area of the forum.

Of course, Tarheeler, there are individuals who disagree with me, and that's fine. To be sure, though, there are plenty of others who agree.

 

[Tarheeler]

Of course, Tarheeler, there are individuals who disagree with me, and that's fine. To be sure, though, there are plenty of others who agree.

The point you seem to be missing is that there are entire belief systems, which you are trying to find "unity" with, that disagree with you.

It's the same point, I believe, that Tumah has been making this whole time.

 

[Deidre]

I like this, we can agree to disagree, with love and respect. Once we lose those things, we lost our humanity. And our faith becomes meaningless.

 

[Sundance]

The point you seem to be missing is that there are entire belief systems, which you are trying to find "unity" with, that disagree with you.

It's the same point, I believe, that Tumah has been making this whole time.

Ironically, you and Tumah are the ones who don't seem to really understand the overall point I'm trying to make. Even though our faiths have irreconcilable differences between them, we MUST not allow those differences to contribute to the pointless arguing, warfare, violence, and oppression for which our faiths seem to be notorious. Don't you agree, Tarheeler!

 

[arthra]

Thanks DJ_sXe for bringing this topic up on the Abrahamic Religions DIR!

I encourage inter-faith activities and have been involved with an Interfaith Council for a number of years. We share our prayers and activities and respect each other... Sikhs, Buddhists and Hindus feel free to share as well... there are also commonly held goals and aspirations in our community.

Internationally since 1893 at the Chicago World's Fair there was a Parliament of World Religions and the practice has continued up to the present day with regular meetings of the representatives of the world's religions. I believe the last meeting was in Salt Lake City Utah and there was one before that in Perth Australia. I would encourage a review of the article at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_World's_Religions

 

[Sundance]

Thanks DJ_sXe for bringing this topic up on the Abrahamic Religions DIR!

I encourage inter-faith activities and have been involved with an Interfaith Council for a number of years. We share our prayers and activities and respect each other... Sikhs, Buddhists and Hindus feel free to share as well... there are also commonly held goals and aspirations in our community.

Internationally since 1893 at the Chicago World's Fair there was a Parliament of World Religions and the practice has continued up to the present day with regular meetings of the representatives of the world's religions. I believe the last meeting was in Salt Lake City Utah and there was one before that in Perth Australia. I would encourage a review of the article at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_World's_Religions

You're welcome, arthra! I think that it's a very beautiful thing to actively participate in interfaith groups and organizations! It's a two-way learning opportunity!

 

[Tarheeler]

Ironically, you and Tumah are the ones who don't seem to really understand the overall point I'm trying to make. Even though our faiths have irreconcilable differences between them, we MUST not allow those differences to contribute to the pointless arguing, warfare, violence, and oppression for which our faiths seem to be notorious. Don't you agree, Tarheeler!

As I said in my first post, I find that we have much more in common as human beings than we do as "Abrahamics", and think that your OP would have been much better if you had made that point instead of insisting on unity based on a vague and meaningless religious association.

 

[Sundance]

As I said in my first post, I find that we have much more in common as human beings than we do as "Abrahamics", and think that your OP would have been much better if you had made that point instead of insisting on unity based on a vague and meaningless religious association.

Understood.