A Question for Theistic Satanists

[Skorzeny]

The question I have is something I wish answered by a practitioner(s) to help me better understand the belief systems of this denomination of Satanists. I am still at the stage of exploring the perceptions of other LHP practitioners as part of my progression to work out exactly what it is I, myself, believe and this is something that has been bugging me for a little while.

My question actually comes in two parts:

Firstly, is it accepted that theistic Satanists will typically adopt the Christian Satan as their figure of worship/prime deity, or is it more typical for a theistic Satanist to take the name 'Satan' and apply it to a different archetype? If the latter is true, then why the name Satan? Why not Lucifer, Leviathan, Loki or any other deity representative of dark oppositionism? The reason I ask is because if there are but a few theistic Satanists whom adopt the Christian devil as their deity, then my main question will have little relevance.

The second, and most to-the-point question is this: What justification exists to suggest that Satan is greater than God? I am not trying to start a debate by any means, but logic would dictate that in a Christian sense, as righteous and gallant as Satan is, his power is inferior to that of Yahweh. He was created by Yahweh, was defeated by Yahweh, and was cast down by Yahweh. In such a case, why would one elect Satan to be their chief focus of spirituality?

This confuses me greatly, though I suspect that my perception of Satanic theism is plagued by my Catholic upbringing and any helpful responses would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance, LHP.

 

[Orias]

Let me ask a question first...

What are the qualifications for the "Christian Satan"?

Secondly, I don't adopt the title atheist nor theist because realistically I'm more (a)gnostic. Other than that I would rather say that opposition is everything rather than saying he is greater than "God(s)".

More specifically I use the title "Satanist" because it is purely a position of opposition or contention towards title. Terms like Lucifer, Leviathan, Loki (among others) all entail their own meaning but are different in meaning because they are oppositional to a specific idea or thing but they are the same because they are oppositional.

The way I see it is this, in the multidimensional existence, there are several planes that are all oppositional to each other. Sometimes they collide and create more universes, which in turn creates more God(s) for that universe, and sometimes they tear apart. Everything within these universes is essentially simulated, forever. I see Satan as an entity or an energy that is more prevalent within this universe (and likely others) because it appears to want to escape the utter meaninglessness of existence (put harshly). So in this regard, Satan is a means to seek the end of a simulation and put forth the own self/original will of existence. In a way, Satan seeks to create a specific type of God, though he is a God in itself, he is not fully capable of manifesting his own original identity (because it contradicts everything).

In the end, its just a giant contradiction

 

[Exordius]

Satan is greater than God because his influence and power is increasing while God's is decreasing. Take a look at the world and what do you see? Hatred, war, bigotry, selfishness and evil. The righteous flounder while the wicked grow ever more powerful and prevelant. Evil is rapidly displacing good and so the logical deduction is that evil is more powerful then good. Satan is the god of evil... so if evil is triumphing over good than Satan is triumphing over God. Good is a lost cause so why stay on a sinking ship? If you can't beat them then you join them. It is the only sensible thing to do. Better at the Devil's side then in his path. There is no other choice but to submit.

 

[Skorzeny]

Satan is greater than God because his influence and power is increasing while God's is decreasing. Take a look at the world and what do you see? Hatred, war, bigotry, selfishness and evil. The righteous flounder while the wicked grow ever more powerful and prevelant. Evil is rapidly displacing good and so the logical deduction is that evil is more powerful then good. Satan is the god of evil... so if evil is triumphing over good than Satan is triumphing over God. Good is a lost cause so why stay on a sinking ship? If you can't beat them then you join them. It is the only sensible thing to do. Better at the Devil's side then in his path. There is no other choice but to submit.

This is a great response! Though, I imagine that there exist many whom would disagree with your attitude of 'submission' to Darkness/The Left rather than Light/The Right, as it implies a sense of inferiority. Would Satan not embrace an Earthly follower as an accomplice in the flesh, rather than a servant? He is, after all, the Prometheus of Christianity.

(Just as Set regards His followers as students, not servants).



Bold text denotes edited additions.

 

[Tiamat]

A satanist does not submit, nor does he bow before anyone.
And does NOT worship evil. That shuld be called evil worship, not satanism IMO

Satan is not a tyrant god/force. Satan is a god of the deeper parts of existence, and a god of self-development (intellectual and/or spiritual). He is not good or evil,
good and evil are human concepts that change with times. Satan is beyond that.
I agree with Phate, we are students, not servants.
But, everyone has their own interpretation.

 

[Skorzeny]

A satanist does not submit, nor does he bow before anyone.
And does NOT worship evil. That shuld be called evil worship, not satanism IMO.

Of course, but this is all relative to Theistic Satanism / Traditional Satanism, not modernist approaches to occultism, where the character of Satan is put forward as an example of ideal behavior. My last question about submission was meant to seek clarification on a theistic Satanist's attitude towards how he views his deity, and how he believes his deity views him.

Another question for anyone whom is willing to answer it, though...

With respect to the fact that The Dark is progressively consuming the minds and spirits of the human race and gradually overcoming the influence of The Light (whether you are a theist, atheist, or something-in-between LHP practitioner, this should be something you agree with), what, in a Biblical sense, suggests that it is God's power that is weakening? What I mean is, although his influence may be waning, what's to suggest that he is no longer omnipotent? I would be more inclined to believe that a Biblical God would only ever allow the world to be consumed by The Dark if he were to show indifference; unwillingness, rather than inability. How does this strike a Traditional Satanist, and how is their faith in the fallen angel further justified? Note that my perception here is based on the view that the creator will always be greater than the created, until a variable is changed, and while one might argue that God's power comes from the faith his creations have in him (thus suggesting that Satan overcomes God by controlling what he is tied to), this makes no sense as Yahweh was evidently omnipotent prior to the creation of the universe, and the creatures in it. So, that variable doesn't exist at this point.

This is primarily directed towards Exordius, whom initially presented this argument. Though it is a good one, this is still something I'm confused about. Also, please do not presume that I believe in God in a Biblical sense; I was raised Catholic and split myself off years ago due to lack of logical justification for obedience. This thread exists so that I may understand the perceptions of others and, if possible, find some answers/justification to contribute to my own perceptions.

 

[Exordius]

Allright... pherhaps a little clarification is needed here. I may have misspoken. Satan is not the God of evil so much as he is the God of what many people consider to be evil. Everyone has their own opinions about what is right and what is wrong. Some people rely on relgion to tell them while others just do what seems right to them. The problem is that evil is highly subjective and just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder so too is evil in the mind of the one contemplating it. Not everyone agrees on the issue of what evil is and is not... what is evil to one person can be good to another and what one person considers good can be seen as evil by another. According to Christian doctrine Satan represents all that is evil while God represents all that is good. The vast majority of people consider him to be evil and so he is thus the god of evil (in most people's minds). I and other Satanists though do not see him or his teachings as evil. We beleive that it is God who is evil and that his teachings are wrong. All the things you say are evil are to us good while that which you claim as good is to us considered vile. Evil is good and good is evil. All the things you say are sins are virtues to us while all of your virtues are sins in our view. We do not consider ourselves to be evil but we do not mind people putting that label on us if they so desire. If being a rebel against god is evil then i declare that I AM EVIL! I worship what most people consider evil so ergo i am evil. I make no attempt to hide it i revel in it. Evil is winning and good is losing... God has been defeated and Satan shall soon sit upon the great white throne and rule the universe as lord. Call me what you will but i see your God as the one in the wrong and i intend to oppose him with all of my might. He is evil and deserves to be punished for his unspeakable crimes against Humanity. He has lost and so have you. It was a thrilling war but now that conflict is over. If you wish to survive then you will have to submit. There is no other option availiable.

 

[Skorzeny]

Exordius, you're clearly passionate about this (and, you're obviously a Theistic Satanist whom bases his beliefs upon a background of discarded Christian beliefs - great - you're exactly the kind of person I want in this thread), but, there's still something that hasn't been made clear.

As much as I despise myself for even cooperating with a Baptist (unless it's a door-knocker, whom I've welcomed into my home in order to weed out the hypocrisy in his beliefs - that's always fun), 1robin is making the same point I am. How can a Satanist forging his beliefs around an oppositionist attitude to Christianity hope to triumph in the end? Like the Christian said, how can you reduce infinity when following something that is, according to their beliefs, finite? How can Yahweh be expected to fall to Satan when Yahweh is infinitely powerful?

It is far easier to discard the Bible for the bullshit it truly is, but if you're going to humour them, how do you expect to win? How is Satan growing stronger, and how is God growing weaker? Humanity is not a variable which affects either one's power, so how does it work in your eyes?

Please understand that I am in no way trying to argue against your beliefs; I am in complete opposition to Christianity and while my personal beliefs tend not to humour Biblical scripture, I understand why it is that you believe what you believe. I am simply asking for clarification and understanding regarding the belief systems of those similar to me in order to help me forge a proper belief system of my own. Thanks for your participation in this thread so far, but I feel we haven't got to the bottom of this yet.

 

[Exordius]

Ah but Humanity IS a variable else why would both God and Satan be spending all of their time trying to get people to support them? If Humans are incidental to their power then why are they so adamant in gaining worshipers? Clearly there is something about Humans that is important enough to justify them fighting a cosmic war against each other. What that is i do not know but the fact that Humanity is constantly urged to join one side or another indicates to me that both sides NEED humans in order to win their war. Humanity is most certainly a variable.

 

[Skorzeny]

Perhaps our accumulative Will has the potential to fuel the divine? The mental and metaphysical power/influence of seven billion people isn't something to be taken lightly; perhaps Satan and Yahweh are less 'infinite' than scripture would suggest.

It's an interesting thought, to think that Yahweh's many creations all have inside of them a little ounce of divine influence, making the accumulative human race a god-like entity. The fact that humanity has the capacity to (presuming that Biblical scripture is somewhat close to the truth) identify their own creator, his enemy, and make a decision on which to swear allegiance to suggests that, regarding the scale of divinity, we do have some sense of divine capacity of our own within us.

Bolded text denotes edited additions.

 

[Exordius]

Exactly!

 

[Monotheist 101]

Satan is greater than God because his influence and power is increasing while God's is decreasing. Take a look at the world and what do you see? Hatred, war, bigotry, selfishness and evil. The righteous flounder while the wicked grow ever more powerful and prevelant. Evil is rapidly displacing good and so the logical deduction is that evil is more powerful then good. Satan is the god of evil... so if evil is triumphing over good than Satan is triumphing over God. Good is a lost cause so why stay on a sinking ship? If you can't beat them then you join them. It is the only sensible thing to do. Better at the Devil's side then in his path. There is no other choice but to submit.

I think compared to God..Satans power and knowledge can be compared to that of a tiny drop in an Ocean..only God has knowledge of the future..ask Satan or his helpers how and from where they try to acquire knowledge of the unseen or how they were made to look like fools when Solomon passed away silently and they kept building his temple...not realizing that he was dead and they no longer had to serve him..the humility..you guys should ask these questions of entities you come in contact with..I believe they live for a couple hundred years..so Solomon might have been only a few generations before their time..In my findings they climb on top of eachothers shoulders till they reach the lowest heaven..we see them burning and falling in the form of shooting stars..

IMHO if I was to embrace Satanism I would do it full on..not just hey Im being individualistic so Im a Satanist..no I would do it proper..Alestair Crowley style.. but thats just me..I have to embrace something fully if it agrees with me..unfortunately placing faith in a mere Jinn.. spirit...not an angel..and not divine..doesnt work for me..And I have personally experienced how weak Satan is..he only has power over the confused weak willed masses..just as black magician practice their rituals..I practice rituals every night which are meant for the exact opposite purpose than black magic..kind of like a remedy..which works brilliantly..with Allah's help they cant touch me..not even Iblees himself...the goat head that I saw in my dreams, he invited me to bathe in a river of dirty water, I fed him to a lion who was chained nearby..weird dream that was..but I can grasp the symbolism and meaning.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Satan shall soon sit upon the great white throne and rule the universe as lord. Call me what you will but i see your God as the one in the wrong and i intend to oppose him with all of my might. He is evil and deserves to be punished for his unspeakable crimes against Humanity.

I think you are patiently waiting for Satans greatest Son..Dajjal/Anti Christ...I have reason to believe the Jews wait on him too..he is going to appear at the Dome of the Rock the archaelogical site of Solomons temple..he is said to possess great power..and will be able to perform great miracles..people will take him as God..I will spit in his face and choose to die a martyr tho..or rather I have come across some verses that IMO shed a bit of light on his story and provide protection from him when he manifests in physical form..

Its funny how you think that Satan is someone close to or almost equal to God..when in reality he has no Godly attributes except for immortality which is for a specified time and free will..which he uses to raise doubts and misconceptions about God..God is not losing..God is indifferent..he created Satan to test us..ultimatley we are losing..not God..why would he care if he lost or won he wouldnt be a true God if he lowered himself to the level of competing..he is not playing on the field he has a seat in the VIP booth and is watching the game being played from the outside..every now and then he sends in a fresh substitute to remind us..but the problem lies with the fact that everything is mortal and must die..so the message die or fade with the mortals..while satan enjoys his gift of immortality and serves his purpose as a deciever..our enemy..not our God or friend or teacher..

 

[Mindmaster]

Metaphysical debates in this forum are severely off topic. I'm a theistic Satanist and I don't believe either in Jehovah or the Christian definition of Satan. History is often written by that which is more popular, but often that isn't the truth. What Yaweh's reasons are for doing anything is pure speculation given that you have neither a direct experience of the fact nor factual historical evidence supporting the claim.

Theistic Satanists usually use a process of direct experience therefore we're not pawns to the probably false histories others have written. Would anything change with you if you were to discover that what you had been taught is wrong? This is my problem with Abraham-derived religions in general. If facts come out that invalidate portions of your faith do you keep towing the line or start thinking? My experience is that the canon becomes more important than the reality of the situation. So little of the bible, koran, and the like are validated by any third party information. Pardon if I consider this highly suspect as many of the events that have supposedly occurred seem to be of the scale that they would have been major news even now and the facts would have been wildly spoke of. The only place they are mentioned is the bible and not recorded anywhere else -- I call baloney on that.

From everything I've known Satan (possibly under different names) has existed way before any Jehovah character. If they both exist Jehovah is a rookie and no one is subordinated to that new kid on the block.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Metaphysical debates in this forum are severely off topic. I'm a theistic Satanist and I don't believe either in Jehovah or the Christian definition of Satan.

Apologies if i went off topic..what thread do you think is relevant in openly discussing my spiritual experiences and interactions with the Jinn..or understanding of reality as perceived through the spiritual eye..?

If facts come out that invalidate portions of your faith do you keep towing the line or start thinking? The only place they are mentioned is the bible and not recorded anywhere else -- I call baloney on that.

No facts have come out yet invalidating anything in the Quran..the difference between the Young Creationist view and the Islamic view of creation is that Islam does not put a definate time frame of approx 6000 years since the creation of Adam..these events and people mentioned in the stories could have been hundreds of thousands of years old..the Quran does not contradict science or archaeological evidence at all..The Bible or Genesis to be precise really messed up the order of how things should have been created..light before the stars and the sun...night and day before the sun..very confusing indeed..

From everything I've known Satan (possibly under different names) has existed way before any Jehovah character. If they both exist Jehovah is a rookie and no one is subordinated to that new kid on the block.

I completely agree that Satan has existed long before Adam but not Jehovah/Allah how can you have a creation without a creator?..Satan was created or given life before Adam..I hold the view that Satan or Iblees as I like to call him was the best of the Jinn who populated the earth before the children of Adam.. He was raised up to heaven because he was as Good as an Angel..when God breathed life into Adam and asked all the Angels(no free will) and Iblees (Jinn with free will) to prostrate infront of the best of creation Adam (human being), Iblees refused..his ego or individuality or Satanism came into play IMO..he said that he was made of fire and Adam was made of Mud, he said I am better than him, Adam is hollow..I can easily sit inside his chest (whisper/decieve)..that to me was the first sin..or Original Sin..not eve eating some apple as the old testament will have you believe..

 

[Informare]

Apologies if i went off topic..what thread do you think is relevant in openly discussing my spiritual experiences and interactions with the Jinn..or understanding of reality as perceived through the spiritual eye..?

I think since it says Islam on your member title, and all you talk about is Islam-related stuff, and your posts are completely informed by Islamic thought, you should probably post in the Islam or Religious Debate threads.

 

[Monotheist 101]

I think since it says Islam on your member title, and all you talk about is Islam-related stuff, and your posts are completely informed by Islamic thought, you should probably post in the Islam or Religious Debate threads.

No ones willing to talk about these concepts..because it is a forbidden science or knowledge..oh well..my bad..wont post here

 

[Mindmaster]

No ones willing to talk about these concepts..because it is a forbidden science or knowledge..oh well..my bad..wont post here

Fact remains... I probably only know enough about Islam to refute that my practices have nothing to do with them. Islam is very regimented in thought at least regarding these issues -- the book (Quran) rules in all cases, but what I think Mono is into is against the rules which are very strict. I can see where that may prompt him to come to this forum.

Djinn = demons for all intensive purposes at least according to my understanding, but just working with such a creature would not make you left-handed but rather simply reversing of your path. Islam directly forbids this sort of thing much in the way Christianity does the other, but if you still believe that what is in the Quran is rote truth then you aren't necessarily among us. It is possible to invert a religion and play to the supposedly negative characters instead of the perceived good guys, but you still basically believe in the religion as the rest of the flock you just picked team evil.

Ancient grimoires are flooded with venomous conjurations and orations, pleads to Jehovah, and Christ. While these people were working with demons they were no less pious or dedicated to conventional religions than anyone else... If anything they had more to fear and tried to maintain an even more dedicated life to the path they were involved in. While they may have worked of demons they did it in the name of their God and that is hardly LHP. I can see where this is probably confusing to an outsider, but playing with the bad spirits doesn't make you LHP per Se, especially if you are trying to do it with the support of your favourite deity or in their honor.

The LHP isn't against using these practices, but the practitioner usually doesn't believe they need the support of a God to interface with them. Since I see spirits, demons, souls, gods, etc, as nearly the same thing I feel no particular need to beg for anything from anyone. I have the right and authority to proceed as I will due to my own right to discover the truth of any matter. I am the ruler of my destiny, and that path isn't at the mercy of anything but my own interests at the time. My affinity towards Satan is just a natural coupling of energy that is pointless to debate, but I do not view my relationship as subordinate but rather as a sibling or family member which I deeply respect. The strength of this bond is why I consider myself a Satanist.

Rules, regulations, fears, sins, and all of that are the real tools of self-destruction.

 

[Informare]

I did not intend tell you not to ever post here; Mindmaster is right in that there probably isn't a better place that will give you honest answers except for perhaps religious debate. However, if you insist on filtering every question through the lens of "Islam is always right, Quran is always right," I can guarantee you will not find satisfactory questions or answers in this forum, or any other of the LHP forums. Most, if not all, of the members that post in these forums are quite a ways past the dualist views of Islam and Judeo-Christian practitioners.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Oh well..I guess Ive been exposed to this stuff from an Islamic angle..but it makes alot of sense to me..I'm not saying that everyone who ever interacted with them is evil..

What is the LHP or theistic Satanist view of creation? or if there ever was one?