Where Was God...

Thanda · Sep 4, 2015

Strategic Philosopher said:
I didn't say people should be forced to do moral things, I said god should prevent people from doing immoral things. People would still have the opportunities to do what they wanted, but without hurting others. God could basically work as a functional police force.

If you prevent people from doing immoral things then you are forcing to do moral things. If you want to exceed the speed limit (which is an immoral thing) and God stops you from exceeding it then he is forcing to you go within the speed limit (a moral thing).

God lover · Sep 4, 2015

Etritonakin said:
We are born into a situation which could be perfect -but which is not because it was made not perfect by a series and compounding of choices.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

That is a very clear post. It seems to make perfect sense to me when I look at a world with such beauty and such suffering. I can't think of a better explanation that holds the balance properly! Well done.

I would only wonder about the human perspective of perfection. This world hurts and seems to be a far cry from perfection. However, if it is God's desire to create a world that teaches His children, then spiders , mosquitoes and even the common cold make sense. Sweat little robins and happy chickadees eat spiders. Haha. Pooping in your family's house spreads disease. Ewe gross man! The world is so full of lessons by this sometimes harsh created world. So, you could argue that this world is the perfect playground for a well rounded education.

It seems like this world goes too far! Holocaust, cancer, starvation of children, etc.... However, the argument could be made, (and I beleive this is the biblical perspective ) that this extreem suffering and the suffering of innocent victims is actually the result of human actions. There is plenty of food to feed 7 billion people, (if God intended for us to make so many im not sure) but its the distribution of food that causes this starvation. Also, it is my personal beleif that disease is continuing to increase because of the continueing rejection of the Spirit of God by us, the stewards of this earth. Take note thay Jesus healed many when he was among us, this was his way. His Spirit heals us naturally. It is the nature of God, this renewal will be total when Heaven comes to earth. Greed, selfishness, revelry, hate by people... this is what is bringing the suffering to such extreem. Perhaps the most pain God ever wanted for us was stubing our toes every once in a while.

I got lots to learn, this is where I'm at.

Kinda what you said already. But the idea I am pointing out is that this is the perfect training ground to complete God's intention. So, if not perfect, you could say it is good.

Equates God is goood. For sure. Really really great.

Glaurung · Sep 4, 2015

Deist Mentor said:
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

The creation of evil in so far as being the source of everything that exists. Indirectly, God is the source of evil in that what commits evil draws its existence from him. That does not mean however, that God personally commits evil. He allows it, be never causes it.

I don't refuse to accept any answers, just those cop out answers that I listed. Those are the default answers for those that can't explain and answer the question WHY...

Why, because you've arbitrary decided they're not acceptable? All those answers can be discussed at length and are deeper than how you wish to frame them. They are far from cop-outs. But in the end it doesn't matter. I do not see it as a compelling reason to doubt God's goodness simply because God's providence can't be laid out and justified according to the preconceptions of finite mortals in a particular place.

God's speech in Job summed up.

- "How cute, the little creature thinks to demand justification from the infinite."

Unification · Sep 4, 2015

Unification said:
I understand this wasn't meant for my response, but if I may...

As Thanda has said, taking positives from negatives is how the race of mankind has developed and continues to develop, learn, and evolve. A fall and then rise. Failure and then success. Sacrifice and suffering is required. We couldn't experience peace and bliss if we didn't know what sacrifice and suffering were. If all were light, we wouldn't see much. Just as we couldn't experience peace and bliss if we didn't know what suffering and sacrifice were, we wouldn't see much. Loathing and living in memory of the past also doesn't push us forward. It causes blame and reaction from emotion. We live now, in present times. We created our past and we were our past. And here we are now. While it wasn't "needed," there is no changing it and it just IS and asking "why?" is a hindrance to development NOW. We don't have to blame or thank anyone, we were them and are them. We need to move on.

We would have to know those were "innocent." Perhaps they could have been killers and took the lives of others once before. One giant merry-go-round. One or many paying every last penny.

So where was "God?".... Nature was stirring up the minds of devourers to devour the devouree's. Animal mind vs animal mind. Cycles of devouring. The deterministic portion of the mind of wiring. One wicked world in need of Justice, a shift in conscious, a shift in awareness, and tough love lessons. We can genuinely forgive others to prevent a lot of suffering. Minds need destroyed and rebuilt. When someone does something inhumane, we want penalty and justice, but when nature does it out of tough love and just measures, we complain and blame, especially when it's "ourselves" that get the consequences. Justice isn't always ours to serve, we are not in complete control. Life is for us so we could love and cherish, and be peaceable and coexist in harmony, for those that take that peace from others, peace will be taken from them. Those that live by the sword will die by the sword. One has the freewill of limitations to do as they please... love, live, cherish, embrace, enjoy, just don't harm others.

Unification · Sep 4, 2015

God lover said:
That is a very clear post. It seems to make perfect sense to me when I look at a world with such beauty and such suffering. I can't think of a better explanation that holds the balance properly! Well done.

I would only wonder about the human perspective of perfection. This world hurts and seems to be a far cry from perfection. However, if it is God's desire to create a world that teaches His children, then spiders , mosquitoes and even the common cold make sense. Sweat little robins and happy chickadees eat spiders. Haha. Pooping in your family's house spreads disease. Ewe gross man! The world is so full of lessons by this sometimes harsh created world. So, you could argue that this world is the perfect playground for a well rounded education.

It seems like this world goes too far! Holocaust, cancer, starvation of children, etc.... However, the argument could be made, (and I beleive this is the biblical perspective ) that this extreem suffering and the suffering of innocent victims is actually the result of human actions. There is plenty of food to feed 7 billion people, (if God intended for us to make so many im not sure) but its the distribution of food that causes this starvation. Also, it is my personal beleif that disease is continuing to increase because of the continueing rejection of the Spirit of God by us, the stewards of this earth. Take note thay Jesus healed many when he was among us, this was his way. His Spirit heals us naturally. It is the nature of God, this renewal will be total when Heaven comes to earth. Greed, selfishness, revelry, hate by people... this is what is bringing the suffering to such extreem. Perhaps the most pain God ever wanted for us was stubing our toes every once in a while.

I got lots to learn, this is where I'm at.

Kinda what you said already. But the idea I am pointing out is that this is the perfect training ground to complete God's intention. So, if not perfect, you could say it is good.

Equates God is goood. For sure. Really really great.

And beings starving are more content with little or nothing than gluttons that have everything but are not content and want more.

God lover · Sep 4, 2015

Unification said:
And beings starving are more content with little or nothing than gluttons that have everything but are not content and want more.

Excellent point.

Gluttony :ewe avoid this one

Neo Deist · Sep 4, 2015

Tlaloc said:
He allows it, be never causes it.

Verifiable source?

God lover · Sep 4, 2015

Sees said:
Also #2, though not really key to the topic, the "do not stop" thing is overblown. I spent years over there, often driving key personnel and cargo...never killed or maimed anybody by hitting or driving over them with a vehicle and don't personally know any service members or civilians who did. Media tends to be ridiculous.

I found it hard to beleive that parents, so desperate to feed their families would throw their children in front of a military convoy. I would rather jump in front myself than use my child. That's rediculous. But it's also illogical to stop a military convoy for food. What if they stop? You grab their food and they just shrug their shoulders? What's the source on this example?

ChristineES · Sep 4, 2015

Where was God? God was shaking his head and lamenting on the choices His creations were making (in my beliefs)

First Baseman · Sep 4, 2015

Man made his choice in the garden long ago as to whom he would serve - his own belly rather than God.

Man has no right to question God as to the choices He makes. Refer to the book of Job. God never answered Job's question of, "Why me?"

I suppose that God's thinking and decision processes are so far above our own that we wouldn't understand the Why about His decision making process anyway.

Glaurung · Sep 4, 2015

Deist Mentor said:
Verifiable source?

Now you're being childish.

Glaurung · Sep 4, 2015

Strategic Philosopher said:
Not really, your saying something unprovable like its fact.

When you talk to a Christian about his beliefs, for the sake of discussion the beliefs are taken granted. I'm well aware he doesn't believe, I'm addressing his points against what I believe.

Neo Deist · Sep 4, 2015

Strategic Philosopher said:
Not really, your saying something unprovable like its fact.

You beat me to it!

Neo Deist · Sep 4, 2015

Tlaloc said:
When you talk to a Christian about his beliefs, for the sake of discussion the beliefs are taken granted. I'm well aware he doesn't believe, I'm addressing his points against what I believe.

Hold up...

What exactly is it that I don't believe? My views have been well established on this forum, so please inform me of my beliefs since you seem to know them.

Or...

Is it the fact that I listed the all too often rehearsed answers, and asked you to actually think and prove your position, without the use of those answers? You realize that is a daunting task that most likely can't be accomplished, and so you go on the defensive.

InChrist · Sep 5, 2015

Where was God? I assume this question is in reference to the Creator God, not the god of this world who the scriptures state is roaring around seeking whom he may devour. When one is aware of the existence and nature of Satan it is not difficult to understand the terrible incidents listed in the OP. Yet, I can understand how the question can remain if God the Creator is ultimately in control, why do bad things happen? I see from the scriptures that freewill is of upmost importance to God in His creation of humans and God's sovereignty and control is at present restrained so as to preserve and allow human freewill... because God is love. Love and loving responses to God and others must be freely given or they are not truly based in love.
From my perspective, through my own experiences and through the revelation of the scriptures, I see only two choices before humanity. One is to serve God the Creator, loving Him and others first or to serve the god of this world putting self first. Choice two, I believe is the reason for every selfish, cruel, and violent act that has ever taken place in the last fifteen years and throughout history.
According to the scriptures, time and this world are temporary. The heartaches and evil of this world will come to an end. In the meantime, today is the day of salvation while God allows each person to make their eternal choice.

Neo Deist · Sep 5, 2015

InChrist said:
When one is aware of the existence and nature of Satan it is not difficult to understand the terrible incidents listed in the OP.

Yet, I can understand how the question can remain if God the Creator is ultimately in control, why do bad things happen?.

Don't those two statements contradict themselves? Satan is the cause of the bad stuff, but God is in control? Would that not imply that God controls Satan, and therefore God is responsible for Satan's actions?

God lover · Sep 5, 2015

Deist Mentor said:
I can't help but look back on events that have happened in the past 15 years and wonder "where was God?" The events that I cite are for example purposes only. In no way am I trying to cause someone pain, heart ache, or dishonoring the dead.

1. September 11, 2001: four planes are hijacked by terrorists. Two are crashed into the WTC, one hits the Pentagon and one goes down in a field. Thousands of people lost their lives, many of whom have nothing to do with what is going on in the Middle East. Where was God?

2. Afghanistan and Iraq (21st century): US forces travel in convoys and are under strict orders of "DO NOT STOP." If they do stop for civilians, those same civilians will try to run up to the convoy and steal food, water, supplies, etc. Parents would toss their young children on the road in front of the convoys, trying to make them stop...but the convoys couldn't. Imagine being the driver of that lead vehicle and having to run over a child because of a desperate parent. Where was God?

3. I have had numerous cases where a child (toddler) was beaten to death by an adult. Where was God?

4. I had a case where an ~80 year old widowed white woman had been married to her husband for 60+ years, had only been with him, and was a devout Christian. A ~20 year old black male broke into her house, beat the crap out of her and raped her. I can't imagine the psychological torment she experiences to this day. Where was God?

5. Refugees are fleeing Syria by the millions. On September 2, 2015, two boats carrying refugees capsized at sea. One of the deceased has been all over the news...it was a three year old little boy who drowned and his lifeless body washed up on a beach in Turkey. What possible purpose was there in that boy's death? Where was God?

6. ISIS is murdering people left and right in extremely grotesque manners. They are beheading people SLOWLY with knives, drowning people, burning people alive, blowing people's head's off with explosives, and having children (recruits) shoot adult prisoners in the back of the head. Where is God?

I use these examples to drive home a point...

There are those that believe that God controls everything. If that is the case, then you have to blame God for the above atrocities, every wicked act, evil, corruption and senseless death. What damn purpose does any of that stuff serve?

Before you answer, know that we have heard it all before:
"God works in mysterious ways"
"We can't know the mind of God"
"Everything happens for a reason"
"We don't see His plan or the bigger picture"
"Satan causes evil and suffering"

Every single one of those answers are nothing but a cop out because you can't logically answer those questions, when you put God in control of everything followed by the notion that He is a loving God. That is my biggest problem with religions/people that make that claim.

The same people will jump to the Satan excuse...that he is the one that causes those things. By that very statement they contradict the claim that God is in control of everything. Is Satan subject to God'a authority or not? Of course I don't believe in the invisible boogeyman called Satan, but I use him to illustrate that point.

The only logical explanation that I have been able to think of after 40 years, while maintaining my belief in God, is the belief in free will. If God were to intervene on any of those accounts, then it is no longer free will. With that gift comes great sacrifice, sorrow, pain, misery, hardship and loss of life.

I see your logic. Logic matters. You're own compassion causes you to question a reality in which a loving God could allow such atrocities. Your a good guy/woman.

I am concerned for you, but I have to have a bigger faith in God's ability to reach you. My forum name is God lover. I'm not going to pretend that I don't believe.

So here is my response to a very fair point you make:

Look for God within your own experience. I am convinced that we will never see God in a microscope or telescope. We won't prove God in a logical or phylisophical argument. Science and logic Matter! They are wonderful capacitis of human kind! Love em'

However, I want to impress the view that the meeting between a present and active God happens between God and every person. Perhaps the only place you will meet God is in your own experience. Looking at the lives of others will never be where your own meeting happens. The lives of others can serve to point you towards God, but your experience in your heart will only be known by you.

`mud · Sep 5, 2015

A lot of this thread seems to point to all the things done by people to other people.
A lot of it tries to blame God for being not loving, or doing harm for doing sinful acts.
Subtracting the 'natural' random occurances, tornadoes, hurricanes, fires, and all,
the bulk of what God doesn't do, always amazes me, for instance: babies dieing.
I'm told that God is everywhere, always, and omnipotent, and all knowing.
But...as Thief tells me... God is spirit ... He controls none ... He just loves.
Sooooooo..... I guess satan does the dirty deeds, and kills children and such.
I have to ask, why did God create satan ?
~
NuffStuff
~
'mud

Etritonakin · Sep 5, 2015

Deist Mentor said:
Don't those two statements contradict themselves? Satan is the cause of the bad stuff, but God is in control? Would that not imply that God controls Satan, and therefore God is responsible for Satan's actions?

God allows and restrains Satan as God sees fit, actually.

The sinning angels are restrained, but also allowed to do their own will at times. It is an odd arrangement, but will result in something positive.

Job1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Neo Deist · Sep 5, 2015

Etritonakin said:
God allows and restrains Satan as God sees fit, actually.

The sinning angels are restrained, but also allowed to do their own will at times. It is an odd arrangement, but will result in something positive.

Job1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Exactly. God is in control. Therefore responsible for everything...unless we have free will.

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