Israelis created Gaza. To host Palestinian refugees, to give them a home.
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Israel-Gaza : The bitter harvest of hate
- Thread starter Jayhawker Soule
- Start date
Koldo
Outstanding Member
How did you reach this conclusion?
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
In 2005, Israeli Prime Minister Sharon ordered the removal of Israeli settlers and soldiers from Gaza. Israel and its Supreme Court formally declared an end to occupation, saying it "had no effective control over what occurred" in Gaza. However, the United Nations, Human Rights Watch and many other international bodies and NGOs continue to consider Israel to be the occupying power of the Gaza Strip as Israel controls Gaza Strip's airspace, territorial waters and controls the movement of people or goods in or out of Gaza by air or sea.
Israeli-Palestinian_conflict - Wikipedia
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
libre
Skylark
How kind of Israel to 'create' a reservation for a a diaspora that they turned into homeless refugees
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And that somehow justifies Hamas' killing, mutilating, and kidnapping of well over 1000 innocent civilians?
BTW, what business is it of yours or the Palestinians where Israel chooses to locate its capital? Am I to dictate where Iran's capital must be? Lebanon? Syria?
libre
Skylark
Well, if you choose to annex territory in an undisputed violation of international law, it is the business of the international community.
United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 - Wikipedia
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
We're talking about Jerusalem minus the West Bank, which is part of Israel proper.Well, if you choose to annex territory in an undisputed violation of international law, it is the business of the international community.
United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
libre
Skylark
Jerusalem minus the West Bank is just West Jerusalem.
Israel previously claimed that the entirety of Jerusalem was their capital in the Jerusalem Law, which even the courts in Israel have considered to be an annexation claim. It's completely reasonable for Palestinians and the international community to be concerned about this.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
No .. I am not justifying any 'act of war' on either side .. I am just using my common sense, as to WHY 7 Oct. happened.
That seems a rather unnecessary remark..
The UN, at the time, warned Trump against collaborating with Israel over moving its capital to Jerusalem.
The whole world knows that the issue is controversial, and one of the main causes of conflict.
It is why the British gave Jordan the role of overseeing the Holy precinct .. to keep the peace.
It would appear that the way Israel intends to "keep the peace", is by sheer force .. it CANNOT succeed.
..unfortunately for ALL of us!
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
It is not called as such but just "Jerusalem". If one says "West Bank", that's obviously a reference to the Palestinian area under the leadership of the Palestinian Authority. I've spent time in both, btw.
De jure, yes; de facto no.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
"Common sense" minus "common decency" is not acceptable imo.
What Israel is doing is for defensive purposes after the Oct. 7th massacre, and Hamas must be removed or all we will be doing is seeing repeat after repeat after...
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
I know why Israel is doing what it is doing .. and as I say, I am not justifying the actions of either side.
I am merely stating the facts as I see them.
Israel CANNOT succeed by "removing Hamas" .. particularly as the way they are doing it, sheer force,
will only breed more hate.
I am not the only one in the world to see this.
However, what will be will be .. I do not believe diplomacy will solve the conflict either. It's gone too far.
Armageddon will/is happen(ing).
I mean, "an enclave", surrounded by enemies, is not a paradise .. it is eternal hell !
I do not see the majority of Muslims embracing Judaism .. nor do I see the global pop.
of Muslims being annihilated.
I'm not about to excuse atrocities nor put them on a scale to determine who is more evil but the key question is how can this be resolved?
One one hand we have the voices in Israel calling for the crime against humanity of ethnic cleansing. On the other hand we have a history of missed opportunities and failure to learn from other's experience. And that lesson is a hard one in that people like Barghouti would need to be part of a peace process just as the corresponding figures in Northern Ireland were part of the process there.
Maybe someday people will take the very hard road to real peace.
One one hand we have the voices in Israel calling for the crime against humanity of ethnic cleansing. On the other hand we have a history of missed opportunities and failure to learn from other's experience. And that lesson is a hard one in that people like Barghouti would need to be part of a peace process just as the corresponding figures in Northern Ireland were part of the process there.
Maybe someday people will take the very hard road to real peace.
A followup which is illustrative of how far from decency some Israelis especially in the current government have descended.
Explicit calls to commit horrific crimes against the citizens of Gaza began [on October 7] and have since become a legitimate and normal part of the Israeli discourse," wrote the group, decrying "calls for destruction; for ethnic cleansing; for executions of prisoners; to drop an atomic bomb; to 'Nakba 2'; to starve; to create a deliberate humanitarian crisis and to use epidemics as a means of military pressure."
The signatories accused right-wing lawmakers aligned with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of incitement to genocide within Israel by repeatedly calling for Gaza's population of 2.3 million people to be wiped out or forcibly removed from the blockaded enclave—using a variety of language.
Examples of the government's promotion of "the discourse of annihilation, expulsion, and revenge" include a comment made in November by Yitzhak Kroizer, a member of the Knesset representing the Jewish National Front party, in which he called for Gaza to be "flattened" and said that for all residents "there is but one sentence, and that is death."
...
As if to prove the signatories' point about the normalization of genocidal rhetoric, another Knesset member from the Likud, Moshe Saada, said Tuesday that the fact that calls to "destroy" Gazans have become increasingly commonplace in Israeli society shows that the far right was right to make such statements after Hamas' October 7 attack on Israel.
"My friends at the prosecutor's office, who fought with me on political matters, in debates, tell me, 'Moshe, it is clear that all the Gazans need to be destroyed,' and these are statements I have never heard," Saada toldChannel 14 in Israel.
In an op-ed in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, Sfard wrote last week that the aftermath of the October 7 attack—with the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) massacre of at least 22,313 Gaza residents, the displacement of 90% of the enclave's population, and the government's explicit calls for genocidal violence while officials claim that the IDF protects civilian lives—has forced many Israelis to confront "a terrible insight" and an urgent question about their country and the occupied Palestinian territories.
"What will we be after the war? What kind of Israeli society is being cast at present?" wrote Sfard. "What will be the image of a society that in its endless and axiomatic rightness killed tens of thousands, most of them children, women, and the elderly? Indeed, they were killed in the aftermath of a horrifying and unforgivable crime. And yet. My grandmother, who survived the Holocaust after escaping with her mother and sisters from the actions in the Warsaw ghetto and hid until the end of the war in attics and cellars, wrote in her memoirs, that the greatest challenge in the face of the extreme inhumanity was to maintain humanity."
Prominent Israelis Demand End to Calls for Outright Genocide From Top Officials
"When it comes to the statements of Jews instigating mass deportation and even genocide—the legal adviser to the government, the state attorney, and the entire prosecution system are silent," wrote a group of prominent Israelis.Explicit calls to commit horrific crimes against the citizens of Gaza began [on October 7] and have since become a legitimate and normal part of the Israeli discourse," wrote the group, decrying "calls for destruction; for ethnic cleansing; for executions of prisoners; to drop an atomic bomb; to 'Nakba 2'; to starve; to create a deliberate humanitarian crisis and to use epidemics as a means of military pressure."
The signatories accused right-wing lawmakers aligned with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of incitement to genocide within Israel by repeatedly calling for Gaza's population of 2.3 million people to be wiped out or forcibly removed from the blockaded enclave—using a variety of language.
Examples of the government's promotion of "the discourse of annihilation, expulsion, and revenge" include a comment made in November by Yitzhak Kroizer, a member of the Knesset representing the Jewish National Front party, in which he called for Gaza to be "flattened" and said that for all residents "there is but one sentence, and that is death."
...
As if to prove the signatories' point about the normalization of genocidal rhetoric, another Knesset member from the Likud, Moshe Saada, said Tuesday that the fact that calls to "destroy" Gazans have become increasingly commonplace in Israeli society shows that the far right was right to make such statements after Hamas' October 7 attack on Israel.
"My friends at the prosecutor's office, who fought with me on political matters, in debates, tell me, 'Moshe, it is clear that all the Gazans need to be destroyed,' and these are statements I have never heard," Saada toldChannel 14 in Israel.
In an op-ed in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, Sfard wrote last week that the aftermath of the October 7 attack—with the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) massacre of at least 22,313 Gaza residents, the displacement of 90% of the enclave's population, and the government's explicit calls for genocidal violence while officials claim that the IDF protects civilian lives—has forced many Israelis to confront "a terrible insight" and an urgent question about their country and the occupied Palestinian territories.
"What will we be after the war? What kind of Israeli society is being cast at present?" wrote Sfard. "What will be the image of a society that in its endless and axiomatic rightness killed tens of thousands, most of them children, women, and the elderly? Indeed, they were killed in the aftermath of a horrifying and unforgivable crime. And yet. My grandmother, who survived the Holocaust after escaping with her mother and sisters from the actions in the Warsaw ghetto and hid until the end of the war in attics and cellars, wrote in her memoirs, that the greatest challenge in the face of the extreme inhumanity was to maintain humanity."
Is this not little more than a back-handed appeal to moral equivalency?
Good question… any viewpoints?
I wrote I was not going there but asking how the cycle of hatred and atrocities can be ended. Again that is my point. My followup post illustrated how at least some Israelis are viewing the horror and the Nazi-like statements of a few Jewish members of the current government.
But if you want a morality statement: both are morally repugnant.
I've nothing to add except that I find it specious
& evil to justify Israel's nuking Palestinians.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
I am not justifying it though. I am opposed to both Israel bombing palestinians and USA nuking the japanese during WW2. I see both actions as evil.