Koran dated to before Muhamad birth.

[JoStories]

That is absolutely not the case.

Prove that God doesn't exist and i'm all ears.

It doesn't work that way. You have to prove that God does exist. Since there is not one scintilla of evidence to prove that God does, it falls to you to prove that God does. Proof that God doesn't exist is easy. Where is God? What is God? Why does God not reveal Itself? Etc. You prove this first. Not the other way round.

 

[Godobeyer]

Why would you say thay he was illiterate, the Quran (e.g. 25:4-5) and the hadiths say otherwise and he was a successful merchant which implies some literacy and a lot of interaction with Christians and Jews. Denigrating the prophet seems a strange stance to take.

Why would you expect any one single person to have made such a claim? Multiple people over many years would have narrated various passages and stories.

does merchant in deep past need to be literacy ? in that time Arabs may exchange trades , with goods , much than currency .(gold or silver) , of course there was interaction with Christians and Jews , plus his neighbor is a Jew and one his wives was Christian (Mariya)

for that verse of Quran 25:4-5 , God recit/sort the claims of the disbelievers (you), and deny it in next of verse 25-6 .

And those who disbelieve say, "This [Qur'an] is not except a falsehood he invented, and another people assisted him in it." But they have committed an injustice and a lie.And they say, "Legends of the former peoples which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon."Say, [O Muhammad], "It has been revealed by He who knows [every] secret within the heavens and the earth. Indeed, He is ever Forgiving and Merciful."

The idea that there was no exposure to the beliefs and teachings of people in the area is ludicrous.

EDITED TYPO Errors
I agree but should that base on facts , random picking without using references as (know language "Arabic" ,historic ,and explaination "tafsir") , is like driving car without gaz , so it's stop you in your limit .

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

According to Mustafa Sha from the School of Oriental and African Studies, “If anything, the manuscript has consolidated traditional accounts of the Koran’s origins.”


And he could be right because the carbon-dating range of 568 A.D. to 645 A.D. does not necessarily contradict the claim that the first revelation of the Koran to Muhammad occurred in 610 A.D., because the manuscript could in fact have been produced after 610 A.D.


Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2382300/th...ns-of-islam-scholars-say/#SD2qtuXY8cPW8T3q.99

 

[FearGod]

You said you used logic. However as there is no argument for God which does not have sound and valid objections thus your belief in Islam is not logical. My whole point about god was to show your faulty logic, not to debate god as a concept. You missed the point.

Yes i use logic in my faith, not blind faith as you may think.
For me it is irrational to think that the universe was born from null, if you have an explanation then i'm all ears.

Who said it was a complete text? I sure didnt. Thus you are constructing a strawman to cut down. However we do know that many of the stories within the Quran predate Islam by centuries. He could of repeated these stories and claimed authority he did not have to convince people. Just like every conartist while a religious slant has done throughout history.

No since it is strawman you constructed not something I said.

No one owns the literary rights on historical facts.

 

[Shad]

that's may required in some cases .

since Prophet was Illiterate , how you explain that no one a Jew or Christian claim that he recit to him Gospel nor Torah nor Talmud . IN THAT TIME !!!

It is called talking son, with words using a voice. This is probably why he thought the trinity included Mary when it did not. Many people were illiterate, it was common. This has nothing to do with retelling stories one heard no more then gossip around the water cooler at work.

 

[Shad]

Yes i use logic in my faith, not blind faith as you may think.

Faith is to believe without evidence thus you have zero logic in your faith.

For me it is irrational to think that the universe were born from null, if you have an explanation then i'm all ears.

You inability to think of an answer is not valid ground to make a leap to whatever answer you find appealing.

No one owns the literary rights on historical facts.

Follow your own rule then. Islam is a religion that plagiarized Christianity, Judaism and local Arab ideas. Christianity plagiarized Judaism and Greek mythology. Judaism was a Canaanite religion which plagiarized Babylonian and Sumerian religion. You will employ a double-standard thus historical fact only is used by you when it supports your religion.

 

[Shad]

If we can create life from null then that will be a scientific proof.

It would be proof we are capable of creating life from scratch. It has nothing to do with God. Argument from ignorance.

What science says about life created from null ? if you have perfect answers then we will listen to you.

Go read a number of abiogenesis hypothesis' around. Argument from ignorance.

 

[Shad]

Did the universe come to existence by logic ? or we do understand that the null evolved to the universe that we know today. .

Logic is a tool not a thing

 

[Shad]

I have my doubts not about the science of radiocarbon dating itself, but about the significance of the interpretation. I wonder - has radiocarbon dating surpassed the many other methods of dating a text? That is, I don't know if radiocarbon dating has overturned scholarly consensus on the dating of other texts that used other methods of dating.

Carbon dating is only one method used. Depending on the object tested, and the materials it contains, other methods can be used to confirm the range of dates. Also the language, dialectic and writing style. Hence I pointed out the script in the manuscript in the OP is one that was used during the emergence of Islam.

To me, the significance of the dating would be more useful to prove that the documents were much more recent than religious leaders or scholars had originally thought. For example, if a text was thought to be dated in 100 CE but the radiocarbon dating of the manuscript placed the text at 450CE -- that would prove without doubt that the text could not have been written by someone who lived long before that time.

In part sure this works. However dating of objects either relative to the item itself or events it records can also shed light on to a text. For example no amount of dating of a text describing an event will trump dating of the event location itself. As such with the Exodus/Conquest narrative contradicting evidence found on the ground.

But radiocarbon dating of a parchment within a stone's throw of the supposed author's life -- that looks like it supports authorship rather than denies it.

Agreed, also consider the dating also falls into the range after his death in which the Quran was spread via texts and oral communication. The idea that the text could predate tradition has become sensationalized

 

[Godobeyer]

It is called talking son, with words using a voice. This is probably why he thought the trinity included Mary when it did not. Many people were illiterate, it was common. This has nothing to do with retelling stories one heard no more then gossip around the water cooler at work.

no one claim recit him stories .

so , even if he already knew Torah and Gospel , that does change anything for me .

 

[Shad]

no one claim recit him stories .

Doesn't matter. He lived in an environment which had both Christians and Jews thus their religion, traditions and view. He could of picked up any amount of details during his life from basic interactions. This has a higher probability of occurring then what your religion teaches you

so , even if he already knew Torah and Gospel , that does change anything for me .

Of course not. You have been indoctrinated into your religion while being emotionally and financially invested into it. There is probably nothing that will change your mind as you must be open to the possibility that everything you believe about Islam is wrong and/or Islam is completely false. Few people of any religion can do this, so you are not unique. Hence why academia doesn't give any space to religious views as truth claims

 

[FearGod]

It doesn't work that way. You have to prove that God does exist. Since there is not one scintilla of evidence to prove that God does, it falls to you to prove that God does. Proof that God doesn't exist is easy. Where is God? What is God? Why does God not reveal Itself? Etc. You prove this first. Not the other way round.

The evidence is the universe, it is up to you how to think about it, whether it started by null or by God.
The think that i admit that i'll never know is how and why God does always exist.

 

[Shad]

The evidence is the universe, it is up to you how to think about it, whether it started by null or by God.

No the universe is evidence for the universe.

The think that i admit that i'll never know is how and why God does always exist.

Thus you have give up all forms of critical thinking and skepticism which is typical for religious fundamentalist.

 

[FearGod]

It did not come into existence by known mythology.


Life factually evolved on this planet.



A supermassive black hole expanded/exploded, is our best hypothesis.

The universe is full of black holes.

We don't have perfect answers for the mystery behind this universe,

 

[FearGod]

Yes! Exactly! Once you get people to believe you, you'll be a prophet.
If you are a rich and powerful warlord you can probably do it. Muhammad did.
Tom

Was Jesus a rich powerful warlord ?

 

[Godobeyer]

Doesn't matter. He lived in an environment which had both Christians and Jews thus their religion, traditions and view. He could of picked up any amount of details during his life from basic interactions. This has a higher probability of occurring then what your religion teaches you


Of course not. You have been indoctrinated into your religion while being emotionally and financially invested into it. There is probably nothing that will change your mind as you must be open to the possibility that everything you believe about Islam is wrong and/or Islam is completely false. Few people of any religion can do this, so you are not unique. Hence why academia doesn't give any space to religious views as truth claims

indeed Doesn"t matter , since there is no claim .

 

[MARCELLO]

In hadith, it says that Mohammed bargained with Allah in order to reduce the amount of Salats from 50 to 5 . I cannot count the number of logical rejections to that.

 

[Shad]

indeed Doesn"t matter , since there is no claim .

Sure there are claims. There are the claims of Islam. There are the claims regarding the date of the manuscripts. There are claims regarding Syriac texts.

 

[Godobeyer]

Sure there are claims. There are the claims of Islam. There are the claims regarding the date of the manuscripts. There are claims regarding Syriac texts.

you miss me

I mean in that time (before 1400 years) . no one claim that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) copy/paste from Gospel or Torah .

every religion had his own claims and critics .

 

[JoStories]

The evidence is the universe, it is up to you how to think about it, whether it started by null or by God.
The think that i admit that i'll never know is how and why God does always exist.

I do believe in God but I admit freely that I cannot prove that. I would never make such an statement because its not true. Absence of proof makes the atheist position very understandable, IMO.