"You're not a Christian!"

[Green Gaia]

Or "You are not a REAL Christian!" How many times have we all heard that? It seems to me, and I think others here have noticed it too, that we're starting to agree with the people who say this to us. We're starting to agree and accept wholly someone else's definition of what it means to be Christian instead of saying, "No, I see things differently". As David pointed out in another thread, we have let others define us. Why? Why do we feel both pressure from within and outside to not call ourselves "Christian"? Is what Jesus taught so narrowly defined that those who oppose dogmas and creeds cannot be part of the Christian community?

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

man made labels. I believe in the teachings of Christ, and I was raised in several different Christian denominations, but most Christians would not call me a Christian, because I make it my purpose to study all the religions, and separate the truth from the dogma. It's just a label to me, and it's a label that does not have very strict definition. A christian is someone who believes in Christ, but that would make Muslims Christians, too, wouldn't it, as well as other religions, who believe in Christ, and his teachings, they just don't worship him as a God. No where have I heard that Christians can only be Christians if they worship Jesus as God, but many who call themselves Christians, do worship Jesus as a God and will use this to define themselves.

 

[joeboonda]

I would call myself a Christian if I believed the main truths of the Bible, and I do, Paul would say check to see if you are "in the faith". One must believe that Jesus is God, born of a virgin, died for the sins of the world, rose again the third day, and is coming back again. That is the basics, otherwise call yourself something else.

 

[michel]

Or "You are not a REAL Christian!" How many times have we all heard that? It seems to me, and I think others here have noticed it too, that we're starting to agree with the people who say this to us. We're starting to agree and accept wholly someone else's definition of what it means to be Christian instead of saying, "No, I see things differently". As David pointed out in another thread, we have let others define us. Why? Why do we feel both pressure from within and outside to not call ourselves "Christian"? Is what Jesus taught so narrowly defined that those who oppose dogmas and creeds cannot be part of the Christian community?

I think you may have let other define you, perhaps, because you are so broad based in your acceptance of everybody else's views, and of those who call themselves U.U.

If you remember it wasn't too long ago, that I believed myself to be U,U . I defined myself as such, because I had come to this forum, mixed up, confused (with Christian base beliefs), but incorporating a belief in reincarnation and a few 'other bits' from other faiths.

Maybe your answer could be patially answered by your looking at some of your U.U jokes that you have published, on this forum!! - Do you think that that spect has added to this view of your beliefs ? what do you think is the reason ?

 

[Green Gaia]

I would call myself a Christian if I believed the main truths of the Bible, and I do, Paul would say check to see if you are "in the faith". One must believe that Jesus is God, born of a virgin, died for the sins of the world, rose again the third day, and is coming back again. That is the basics, otherwise call yourself something else.

Just a reminder, this is in the UU forum.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. "Believe exactly as I do or call yourself something else." UUs have done that, and I think we've lost a valuable part of our identity and history by letting others define us and tell us what we can and cannot believe.

 

[Melody]

Just a reminder, this is in the UU forum.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. "Believe exactly as I do or call yourself something else." UUs have done that, and I think we've lost a valuable part of our identity and history by letting others define us and tell us what we can and cannot believe.

Until this last century, were not Christians people who believed Jesus was the Christ and not just a good man? If so, then is it not the modern religions who are trying to change the definition of Christian? Does the definition not lose meaning if it means everything?

I'm a little confused as to what is acceptable in a denomination's forum so forgive me if I'm out of line and I'll move this question to debates.

 

[Davidium]

I go away for a few days, and see the topics that come up....

I will be giving a service here in Galveston, Texas in May of 2006.... It will be the last service I do before I go to be in residence in Seminary. I want to make it memorable and special.

The title will be something like "Where would Rabbi Jesus find his spiritual home?"

My contention is that Jesus would be a Jew with strong ties to the Unitarian Universalist Association. I will post that service here when it is released next May.

The young lady from Tennessee is exactly what Maize is discussing. By her definition, I dont think Jesus would be a Christian. I could go into the arguments for that, but that is not the purpose for this fourm.

Part of the problem with our defining ourselves is twofold... one, we are a different kind of faith, one that demands that even our own members be critical of it. We have to take ourselves with a grain of salt... and as such we are more irreverent about ourselves than any other denomination. We are required to be self-critical. This is expressed institutionally by such entities as the UUA Commission on Apprasial and other such independent review groups in our association, but also through the tradition of our Churches being very independent of the denomination, and watchdogs over it.... and even to the particular UU sense of humor about ourselves. UU's are not offended by UU jokes, because it is part of our process of being self-critical about our faith.

And our faith is stronger for it.

The other reason we have trouble defining ourselves is that we are constantly re-defining ourselves. As Hosea Ballou said almost two centuries ago... we do not stand, we move.

Being a covenant and not creed based faith means we are a different animal than most other religions, and trying to understand UU as you would others is the mistake that most make when looking at UU. Some of us are Christian (by our definition, the only one that matters) and some of us are not. I am closer to Christianity than many other UU's. But even I have gotten that question (including on the air on a radio show from the host not that long ago.)

I feel sorry for those with static religious beliefs... they are unnecessarily limiting their own potential.

My beliefs change every day, because my experiences change every day. I change and grow, I read more, learn more, and become more... It is the art of becoming rather than the standard of being.

We are a faith that is constantly becoming. And so it is hard to say what we are, as we are always becoming something more.

And so, those who do not understand this define us by their static perception of the universe. Many can not grasp the concept of becoming rather than being as it relates to a creedless, free-faith covenantal religion.

So, am I a Christian? Yes, in that I believe that the teachings of Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth encompass one of the greatest moral philosophies and expressions of Agape love ever.... both of which are deep in my heart.

I have a sermon, given awhile ago, entitled "My Relationship with Jesus of Nazareth" that some might desire to read to understand how one can be a christian, and not fit into the defination the young lady gave us. It can be found here... http://dynamicdeism.org/tpst/viewtopic.php?t=33

So, we have a dual challenge, one is defining ourselves in a way that does not compromising our becoming... and second is to help the world realize why our faith is so radically different.

YoUUrs in Faith,

David Pyle
Galveston Island, TX

 

[Green Gaia]

Until this last century, were not Christians people who believed Jesus was the Christ and not just a good man? If so, then is it not the modern religions who are trying to change the definition of Christian? Does the definition not lose meaning if it means everything?

Unitarian Christians have been around since the beginning of Christianity. They were just frowned upon and called heretics because they had different ideas of who Jesus was and what the "good news" meant.

 

[Melody]

Unitarian Christians have been around since the beginning of Christianity. They were just frowned upon and called heretics because they had different ideas of who Jesus was and what the "good news" meant.

Interesting...I didn't know that. As far as labels go. It doesn't really matter what tag people put on themselves until they start saying "christians believe...." and then it becomes *really* confusing.

 

[Green Gaia]

Well, I understand where mainstream Christianity is coming from. They want to define their group and give an accurate definition of what makes a Christian. The problem is, other groups have different ideas of what that means. My question was really for other UUs, wondering why we accept this when we have, and always have had, different ideas of what it means to be a Christian and to follow Jesus. Until the past 50 years or so, Unitarians stood up proud and said "I am a Christian too!" Now we're confronted with the same objections and we respond, "Well, maybe you're right I'm not Christian." We're allowing others definitions to put boundaries on our faith.

 

[Green Gaia]

David, my concern is by allowing others to define what we are and are not we are giving up a tradition that goes back to the earliest stages of Christianity and giving up our "claim" (for lack of a better word) on a different understanding of Jesus' teachings. We teach that yes, Jesus was a great ethical and moral teacher, like others, but we don't teach WHY we believe it and why we have just as much of a right to call ourselves Christians as those who believe in the Nicene Creed.

Thank you for the link to your sermon, I can't wait to read it!

 

[Feathers in Hair]

While I can only speak for the past and for the people in my life that assume I'm a Christian, it does irk me when that happens. How can people presume they know if you're a Christian or not? I thought that that would be between you and god. Unless the other person is getting memoes from the lord saying 'look out for so-and-so, they're not really one of us" that this is quite silly behavior. I especially don't like it for my UU friends, since they seem to be closer in spirit to me than a lot of other religions.

 

[Green Gaia]

I understand where you're coming from Feathers and I thank you. But my "beef" is not with those who would not call us Christian, but with ourselves with allowing what someone else believes to define what we call ourselves when we should be proud of our Christian tradition.

That didn't come out exactly right, but hopefully you get what I'm saying.

 

[joeboonda]

You say Jesus was a great teacher, and its true. However you ignore the claims he makes about himself like that he can forgive sins, he came to pay for our sins, that he and God are one, and he said HE is the way, he claimed to be the messiah, the son of God, God incarnate, God with us.

He said profound things about himself, and so did the O.T prophecies, a mere teacher? I think not.

Peace!

 

[Green Gaia]

You say Jesus was a great teacher, and its true. However you ignore the claims he makes about himself like that he can forgive sins, he came to pay for our sins, that he and God are one, and he said HE is the way, he claimed to be the messiah, the son of God, God incarnate, God with us.

He said profound things about himself, and so did the O.T prophecies, a mere teacher? I think not.

Peace!

I don't think you understand the purpose of this thread. I'm not debating those things with you, my questions were for other UUs.

Shalom

 

[Feathers in Hair]

(Gonna PM Joeboonda. Hopefully make things a little more clear, since she's a newer person to the forums.)

Thank you for going into greater detail about the question, Maize. I certainly understand being puzzled by having a beef with oneself! (Or carrot, if you're vegatarian.)

 

[michel]

Well, I understand where mainstream Christianity is coming from. They want to define their group and give an accurate definition of what makes a Christian. The problem is, other groups have different ideas of what that means. My question was really for other UUs, wondering why we accept this when we have, and always have had, different ideas of what it means to be a Christian and to follow Jesus. Until the past 50 years or so, Unitarians stood up proud and said "I am a Christian too!" Now we're confronted with the same objections and we respond, "Well, maybe you're right I'm not Christian." We're allowing others definitions to put boundaries on our faith.

Just to make sure I understand you; what I have highlighted in red, I believe, is one of the things that U.U's try to steer clear of most ? -a) you like to be 'undefined' and b) you don't like boundaries.

Am I right ?

 

[Green Gaia]

[/color]

Just to make sure I understand you; what I have highlighted in red, I believe, is one of the things that U.U's try to steer clear of most ? -a) you like to be 'undefined' and b) you don't like boundaries.

Am I right ?

No, I think it is important to be defined and to have clear boundaries, but that those should be defined and set up by us, not others.

 

[michel]

No, I think it is important to be defined and to have clear boundaries, but that those should be defined and set up by us, not others.

Ah, right. I was wrong, for the right reasons, but applied by the wrong side......

I understand now - what does confuse me is my misconception of U.U in the past; sorry.

 

[joeboonda]

I don't think you understand the purpose of this thread. I'm not debating those things with you, my questions were for other UUs.

Shalom

Please forgive me, Maize, I get confused about the forums sometimes, didnt mean to say the wrong thing in here, my bad. FeathersinHair helped me figure it out, if I do it again just let me know, sorry!:bonk: