Your opinion about Jesus and the "nations"

[Pastek]

Hi all

I've seen recently a video that i'll sumarize and i'd be happy to have your thoughts about it. Sorry if it was already debated.
If there's any mistakes concerning the chronology or if i missed some important verses, please correct me.

Here are the major points that he exposed. (Sorry if it's too long)

Jesus forbide the apostles to preach non-jews :

10.5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.

10.6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel
(Matthiew)

In Acts, the apostles and believers were angry against Peter because he went to the pagans :

11.1 The apostles and the believers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.

11.2-3 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him and said, “You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

11.18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”


It means that Peter at that time didn't had the right to preach to the pagans,- like Jesus forbate- it if he had to explain that to the apostles and the jews why he did so.
And many years passed since Jesus told them to go and preach the Gospel to all the nations.

15.2 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
(Acts)


Concerning the nations, it's in fact only the jews of the diaspora not everybody :

1.1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.
(James)

2.5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
(Acts)

And in all the chapter 2 the apostles are preaching to the jews of the diaspora.

In Galates, Paul said he had a vision to preach the pagans and had then the authorization from the apostles.
Meaning it wasn't possible before.


2.7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.

2.8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles.

2.9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.


So here Paul is saying that the other apostles preach only to the jews and that he needed an authorization from them to preach to the pagans.
The apostles were'nt preaching to all the nations after Jesus "death".

Any thoughts ?

 

[fallingblood]

Acts actually has Peter preaching to Gentiles, at least in the beginning. In fact, the entirety of Luke/Acts shows a progression from preaching to just Jews to the entire world. And in fact, that is the major issue that Acts begins with.

Matthew is the most stringent on the message just being for Jews, but the other Gospels don't necessarily follow that. While it is true that they portray Jesus primarily preaching to Jews, there are a few exceptions.

 

[Awoon]

It is written that Paul states in Colossians 1:23 that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven.

So my thoughts are, no more preaching of any gospels is needed and any words of anyone preaching is a waste of time.

 

[james2ko]

Hi all

I've seen recently a video that i'll sumarize and i'd be happy to have your thoughts about it. Sorry if it was already debated.
If there's any mistakes concerning the chronology or if i missed some important verses, please correct me.

Here are the major points that he exposed. (Sorry if it's too long)

Jesus forbide the apostles to preach non-jews :

10.5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.

10.6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel
(Matthiew)

In Acts, the apostles and believers were angry against Peter because he went to the pagans :

11.1 The apostles and the believers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.

11.2-3 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him and said, “You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

11.18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”


It means that Peter at that time didn't had the right to preach to the pagans,- like Jesus forbate- it if he had to explain that to the apostles and the jews why he did so.
And many years passed since Jesus told them to go and preach the Gospel to all the nations.

15.2 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
(Acts)


Concerning the nations, it's in fact only the jews of the diaspora not everybody :

1.1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.
(James)

2.5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
(Acts)

And in all the chapter 2 the apostles are preaching to the jews of the diaspora.

In Galates, Paul said he had a vision to preach the pagans and had then the authorization from the apostles.
Meaning it wasn't possible before.


2.7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.

2.8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles.

2.9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.


So here Paul is saying that the other apostles preach only to the jews and that he needed an authorization from them to preach to the pagans.
The apostles were'nt preaching to all the nations after Jesus "death".

Any thoughts ?

I'm beginning to believe all of the apostles, including Paul, were only sent to the descendants of the house of Israel and house of Judah.

 

[sojourner]

I'm beginning to believe all of the apostles, including Paul, were only sent to the descendants of the house of Israel and house of Judah.

Were that the case, we wouldn't have Luke, John, or the rest of the NT.

 

[james2ko]

Were that the case, we wouldn't have Luke, John, or the rest of the NT.

I thought about that. But the term translated "gentile" throughout the NT does not always mean a non-Jew. The Greek term for "gentile" [ethnos] has a broad definition. Vine's defines it:

1. ethnos (G1484), whence Eng., "heathen," denotes, firstly, "a multitude or company"; then, "a multitude of people of the same nature or genus, a nation, people";​

It is used to identify both Jews (Luk 7:5;23:2; Joh 11:48-50) and non-Jews. If the Jews (house of Judah) could be referred to as "gentiles" [ethnos], could the term also apply to the other 10 tribes of Israel (house of Israel), co-recipients of the New Covenant promise (Jer 31:31-33; Heb 8:8-10)?

 

[Brickjectivity]

So here Paul is saying that the other apostles preach only to the jews and that he needed an authorization from them to preach to the pagans.
The apostles were'nt preaching to all the nations after Jesus "death".

Any thoughts ?

First, I admire your courage and knowledge to bring up this subject about Christianity.

As Awoon mentioned the initial preaching of the gospel was completed according to Mark 16:20 and also I Timothy 3:16. (Also there is another reference that I cannot locate at the moment.) The 'Nations' mentioned seem to be the nations of the Jews meaning their various tribes, groups etc.

Paul and Peter in Acts are recorded to have received a new order to begin preaching outside of Judaism, inviting people to join Israel through faith in Jesus Christ. Not everyone agreed with them. Catholics (and Christians) today are forced into a kind of gray area in which we claim to be part of Israel without any official recognition from Jews. Paul actually alludes to this several times in his letters where his 'Apostleship' is questioned. Its completely understandable, however, that Jews would not consider us to be legitimate. Really we aren't legitimate and are sliding the goalposts around a bit. Our legitimacy comes from our behavior. If we're good then we're legitimate, but if we're bad then we're not. Its strange, but that is how its set up.

 

[Pastek]

Acts actually has Peter preaching to Gentiles, at least in the beginning.

But how many years after Jesus told them to preach to all the nations Peter went to the pagans ?

 

[Pastek]

I'm beginning to believe all of the apostles, including Paul, were only sent to the descendants of the house of Israel and house of Judah.

Do you believe at a new alliance with the pagans or that the pagans were accepted by the grace of God, but without a new alliance.
I think that somewhere in Acts James said that the Gentiles must as well follow the law of Moses and be circumcised, no ?

 

[Pastek]

First, I admire your courage and knowledge to bring up this subject about Christianity.

Thank you, i don't have a big knowledge i just quoted someone who explain that Jesus wasn't sent to all the humanity but only to the jews, and i've read some passages of the Bible. I'm still learning.

Paul and Peter in Acts are recorded to have received a new order to begin preaching outside of Judaism, inviting people to join Israel through faith in Jesus Christ. Not everyone agreed with them.

Do you believe in a new alliance or do you believe that the new believers enter by the Grace of God and must follow the Law of Moses like said - if i'm not mistaken- James in Acts ?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Do you believe in a new alliance or ?

That is a difficult thing to answer. It is more like entering by force than making an alliance. Imagine an unwanted orphan who cries outside your door every night to be adopted, then they start bringing you a newpaper in the mornings, and then they start making friends with your children, doing you favors like washing your windows, and they then win your admiration by amazing heroic and charitable acts. They persist and finally convince you to adopt them. The Christians pursued like this, but it was not the Jews that they were trying to please necessarily but God. (Matthew 11:12, Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:5). This is what I think, though it is not the usual answer. I'm not sure it will be very useful to you.

do you believe that the new believers enter by the Grace of God and must follow the Law of Moses like said - if i'm not mistaken- James in Acts

You refer to James chapter 1. James mentions something he calls the 'Perfect law', which complicates your question since in Judaism the written law is imperfect until combined with wisdom. By context he may not be referring to written laws at all, or he may. This chapter explains that 'Anyone' can receive wisdom from God by seeking but they must follow that wisdom God gives or they will merely deceive themselves when asking for it. They will be like a person who looks into the mirror then looks away and forgets the image. Its not clear in what way the person must ask God for wisdom, and that may be a reference to studying scripture. Some people think it is prayer. Seeking God however would require not merely reading laws but also seeking the wisdom to complement them. Possibly James referred to this seeking-and-doing as the perfect law.

Overall the Grace of God is the same as the Spirit of Adoption. The believers must seek God.

 

[Sleeppy]

Keep reading friends. The kingdom that Jesus brought is the same stone cut from the mountain without hands, and crushing all other kingdoms. The stone is growing.

Matthew 3:9 'And do not think to say in yourselves, A father we have --Abraham, for I say to you, that God is able out of these stones to raise children to Abraham.'

Matthew 8:10-11 'And Jesus having heard, did wonder, and said to those following, `Verily I say to you, not even in Israel so great faith have I found; and I say to you, that many from east and west shall come and recline (at meat) with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the reign of the heavens.'

Before Abraham and Lord over David. If you know the truth of the gospel; that there is one God; the Everlasting Father, you also know that God's promise is for Adam, the Earth, the animals, and even the heavens. Abraham is not the father of the promise, being corrupted flesh, God is.

 

[james2ko]

Thank you, i don't have a big knowledge i just quoted someone who explain that Jesus wasn't sent to all the humanity but only to the jews, and i've read some passages of the Bible. I'm still learning.

The nation of Israel consisted of 12 tribes. It was divided into two kingdoms. The house of Judah consisted of two tribes (Benjamin and Judah). The house of Israel made up the other 10. Sometimes the term "house of Israel" is used to identify all 12 tribes. The term "Jews" refers to "only" those from the two tribes of the house of Judah. Those from the other 10 are identified as Israelites. Both groups were taken into captivity at different times. The Israelites of the 10 tribes lost their identity and were ultimately absorbed into the nations of the world. Two tribed Judah retained their identity and are currently known as Jews.

In other words, not all Israelites are Jews but all Jews are Israelites. Christ was sent only to the descendants of both houses. In the NT, Judah refers to the Jews-house of Judah, and in many passages "gentiles" actually refers to the descendants of the house of Israel--Israelites. I believe the bible teaches God is only working with descendants from those two groups in this age. Preparing them to rule the planet with Christ in the millennium. He will work with the rest of humanity in the next age.

 

[Pastek]

The nation of Israel consisted of 12 tribes. It was divided into two kingdoms. The house of Judah consisted of two tribes (Benjamin and Judah). The house of Israel made up the other 10. Sometimes the term "house of Israel" is used to identify all 12 tribes. The term "Jews" refers to "only" those from the two tribes of the house of Judah. Those from the other 10 are identified as Israelites. Both groups were taken into captivity at different times. The Israelites of the 10 tribes lost their identity and were ultimately absorbed into the nations of the world. Two tribed Judah retained their identity and are currently known as Jews.

In other words, not all Israelites are Jews but all Jews are Israelites. Christ was sent only to the descendants of both houses. In the NT, Judah refers to the Jews-house of Judah, and in many passages "gentiles" actually refers to the descendants of the house of Israel--Israelites. I believe the bible teaches God is only working with descendants from those two groups in this age. Preparing them to rule the planet with Christ in the millennium. He will work with the rest of humanity in the next age.

Thanks for those explanations, James2ko

 

[Sleeppy]

strongs-concordance-1620 | New Testament Greek Dictionary for ethnos

 

[james2ko]

strongs-concordance-1620 | New Testament Greek Dictionary for ethnos

Definition:
a multitude, company, Acts 17:26; 1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 21:24; a nation, people, Mt. 20:25; 21:43; pl. ἔθνη, from the Hebrew, nations or people as distinguished from the Jews, the heathen, Gentiles, Mt. 4:15; 10:5; Lk. 2:32​

Since the 10 tribes of Israel were distinguished from the Jews of Judah, this definition could certainly apply to them. Paul makes some intriguing comments which would lead one to believe the gentiles of the NT are physical descendants of Israel:

Rom 9:24-27 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
​

In the beginning of the chapter, Paul identifies himself as an Israelite. Here he uses the pronoun "us" denoting racial unity. We know its racial because in verse 27, he refers to both Jews and gentiles in the congregation as the children of Israel.

He also identifies the gentiles in 1 Co 10:

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;​

The Corinthian congregation consisted of both Jews and "gentiles". Why would Paul state, "our fathers", if they were not all physical descendants of Jacob? If anyone can find something to the contrary, by all means share it. I actually find it hard to believe myself. But the deeper I look into the matter, the more evidence I find to support it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The Corinthian congregation consisted of both Jews and "gentiles". Why would Paul state, "our fathers", if they were not all physical descendants of Jacob? If anyone can find something to the contrary, by all means share it.

Why don't you guys start a thread about it? Sounds like it could get nasty.

 

[Sleeppy]

Definition:
a multitude, company, Acts 17:26; 1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 21:24; a nation, people, Mt. 20:25; 21:43; pl. ἔθνη, from the Hebrew, nations or people as distinguished from the Jews, the heathen, Gentiles, Mt. 4:15; 10:5; Lk. 2:32​

Since the 10 tribes of Israel were distinguished from the Jews of Judah, this definition could certainly apply to them. Paul makes some intriguing comments which would lead one to believe the gentiles of the NT are physical descendants of Israel:

Rom 9:24-27 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
​

In the beginning of the chapter, Paul identifies himself as an Israelite. Here he uses the pronoun "us" denoting racial unity. We know its racial because in verse 27, he refers to both Jews and gentiles in the congregation as the children of Israel.

He also identifies the gentiles in 1 Co 10:

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;​

The Corinthian congregation consisted of both Jews and "gentiles". Why would Paul state, "our fathers", if they were not all physical descendants of Jacob? If anyone can find something to the contrary, by all means share it. I actually find it hard to believe myself. But the deeper I look into the matter, the more evidence I find to support it.

You're ignoring and forgetting quite a bit. But I have seen your thoughts again and again, and I have confidence in, and admiration for your zeal.

The form of the word and its context determine the definition. This is why it's used to refer to everyone from Israel, to any other nation or group. Jesus is of Israel, and so were His disciples. So too the Samaritans. So He purposely excludes them to the twelve for a time, but He was still doing things in their midst. God was with them as He is in the midst of everyone living or sleeping in hell. The disciples where of a different temperament. They were hateful to the Samaritans, believing they were enslaved by the worship of demons and angels of God's Host. Jesus prevented them, until they were convinced by Paul. And Paul only reminded them of what God had already been doing, including what Jesus had been doing. The Samaritans are the lost sheep of Israel. So too the sheep who hadn't yet recognised the new King of Israel, who also happened to be the King of kings even before Israel. Even before Abraham. The Everlasting Father, in Spirit, formed and overshadowed Jesus' flesh, growing in intensity until His adulthood. Notice, at significant points in His life the Spirit descends to help. And Jesus told His disciples exactly that; I will send you the Helper. It's more accurate to say He sent Help, because the Spirit was individualized to each of them. This is why they were able to distinguish between each others thoughts and say that person or that person was 'filled'. The Spirit gradually overshadows the flesh of each person or thing.

 

[james2ko]

You're ignoring and forgetting quite a bit. But I have seen your thoughts again and again, and I have confidence in, and admiration for your zeal.

The form of the word and its context determine the definition. This is why it's used to refer to everyone from Israel, to any other nation or group. Jesus is of Israel, and so were His disciples. So too the Samaritans. So He purposely excludes them to the twelve for a time, but He was still doing things in their midst. God was with them as He is in the midst of everyone living or sleeping in hell. The disciples where of a different temperament. They were hateful to the Samaritans, believing they were enslaved by the worship of demons and angels of God's Host. Jesus prevented them, until they were convinced by Paul. And Paul only reminded them of what God had already been doing, including what Jesus had been doing. The Samaritans are the lost sheep of Israel. So too the sheep who hadn't yet recognised the new King of Israel, who also happened to be the King of kings even before Israel. Even before Abraham. The Everlasting Father, in Spirit, formed and overshadowed Jesus' flesh, growing in intensity until His adulthood. Notice, at significant points in His life the Spirit descends to help. And Jesus told His disciples exactly that; I will send you the Helper. It's more accurate to say He sent Help, because the Spirit was individualized to each of them. This is why they were able to distinguish between each others thoughts and say that person or that person was 'filled'. The Spirit gradually overshadows the flesh of each person or thing.

I appreciate your input but I need something to sink my teeth into--passages, context, syntax--anything indicating Christ was not sent to any other nation, peoples but the physical descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel. I'm contemplating on whether or not I should start a thread but maintaining a thread takes a lot more time than I have right now and like brickjectivity pointed out, it could get messy. Perhaps in the future. Stay tuned.

 

[Sleeppy]

I appreciate your input but I need something to sink my teeth into--passages, context, syntax--anything indicating Christ was not sent to any other nation, peoples but the physical descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel. I'm contemplating on whether or not I should start a thread but maintaining a thread takes a lot more time than I have right now and like brickjectivity pointed out, it could get messy. Perhaps in the future. Stay tuned.

If you look at definition we have quoted, they provide examples of its use.