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Ya'quub vs. Acim: Forgiveness

Acim

Revelation all the time
It's more that the Unity of all possible things must include the Force of Disunity (which is Satan).

If it must be included, this reads to me as God wills Disunity (ultimately) or Reality wills Disunity and God allows it, but really doesn't have a choice, other than own preference, which Reality trumps. Thus Reality trumps what God wills.

*Btw, for this post I'm just going with "God" where I believe you might use "God/dess."

Insofar as Satan is a part of The God/dess (but The God/dess is so much more than Satan), Satan can never be on an equal footing with The God/dess.

This helps with what I was asking.
Do have pertinent question, but think I'll ask it below (in some fashion).

If Satan is yang (or yin), The God/dess is both yin and yang.

So, God is both Satan and God? Foremost God, and far greater as God, but somewhere in God is Satan, and Satan is nothing (not existing) without God. Therefore, God is actually Satan. That conclusion is something I imagine you to have disagreement with. I think you'd say God is foremost God (Unity), but the distinction between God/Satan is what I'm driving at. Also driving at the idea that if one is serving Satan, they would ultimately be serving God, unless you wish to argue that Satan and God are on equal footing, such that it is possible to serve Satan, but not God. If Disunity is ultimately Unity, then people that serve Disunity (i.e. Satan) are ultimately serving God/Unity.

So The God/dess (including Satan) before Satan's 'separation' is all the constituent parts of The God/dess infinitely close together. Satan 'separating' is Satan effectively 'stretching' the constituent parts of The God/dess apart from each other. The God/dess in one form becomes The God/dess in another form. The Unity remains.

The 'apart from each other' is the 'away' thing I was previously having issues with. Still am. Because, I don't see you being clear on where that is. I see it as either the Reality trumps God's preferences for Unity thing mentioned earlier, or that you have variation in understanding 'world of separation' and that ultimately this is God's world, regardless of how far Satan drives things away. But if adding in that Satan is (part of) God, then God wills the separation, in Reality.

All of this is intellectual stuff that piques my curiosity to understand it better, but ultimately, I'm not clear on how God, in Reality (of knowing that only Unity exists) could ever hate Satan, regardless of what Satan does. For surely Satan is unable to do anything in the Reality you are describing that would ultimately harm God in any conceivable way. Yet, I'm under impression that you do think Satan can do things that at least appear to harm those who (think they) are serving God (or Satan). Though, I'll need you to speak more to this before I comment further, but do wish to acknowledge this is ultimately what I'm looking at: How really does God see God as that relates to Satan.

An actual part of Unity, as above.

I see it as confusing that Disunity is part of Unity, and that ultimately Unity wins. But isn't way off from my own understandings, other than (again) I see disunity as illusion. I feel you are saying the same thing, but aren't able to say that for sure, because Disunity is real, in some fashion. There is the ultimate thing (that I mentioned above) and there's the understanding of how could Disunity not win if there is, in Reality somewhere to go where God is not (and only Satan is)? Because I think you are saying there is nowhere for Satan to go where God is not, then that tells me that nothing Satan does can actually go against God (in a meaningful way). Though, this would come down, I think to perspective of followers, but none of those perspectives could reasonably trump God's Unity, so again rather meaningless how far apart Satan's followers think they are from God, when in Reality they are (infinitely) close to God.

Argh! The God/dess knows I've tried to avoid this. Because the pbuh is my sending greetings of peace upon Muhammad (pbuh). It doesn't make sense for me to send greetings to myself.

Why not to Jesus, though? Why not write Jesus (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh)?

Insofar as Satan is part of The God/dess, anything that Satan does is ultimately the doing of The God/dess.

This helps a lot within the discussion. The understanding that all of Satan's doings are ultimately God's doing.

But there is nowhere that The God/dess is not. It is just The God/dess in different forms - a form before Satan's 'separation' and multiple forms thereafter.

It's odd to me that God would have preference of one form over another, given that God would know it is all God's form.

IMO, you've effectively taken away all power away from Satan, but perhaps more responses from you will help me identify whatever power you think Satan actually has, and how that could lead to (actual) harm.


Well, for me the suffering stems from us failing to truly understand the Nature of Reality, and as a result becoming attached to the energetic-material forms with which we (our souls) are associated. If we free ourselves from such attachment (as I said, easier said than done!), we will not suffer.

Given that its all Reality for you, and that it's all ultimately God, then clearly God is in a battle that God cannot lose and that Satan cannot win. In some ways, I think this is very simple to understand. What I think makes it a bit challenging is notions that try to purport that maybe Satan could win. I'm unclear on what that looks like. But I imagine it is not far different than my understandings that say as long as time is seen as trumping eternity and separation seen as trumping unity, then whatever self actually believes this (includes God) would suffer. I feel God would never believe this, or IOW, is not insane, so I think you'd say Satan and Satan followers are hoping to fool enough people for say millions of years, and that amounts to 'victory' of some sort. Though what's a million years (or even a trillion years) when compared to eternity? Not to mention how we arrive at length of time that makes for 1 year, which I would think would be nonsensical to God's Unity.

Right, but there are different forms of Unity, and The Goddess has a strong preference for one form over another.

If the preference was strong of one form over the other that God would actually hate a form (that is God), then this would be God's undoing (not Satan's).

Given what you've conveyed as your theological understandings, I'm unclear how hate would enter God's mind, though look forward, as a matter of debate, you trying to make that case.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
IMO, it would be even more challenging for you, with the idea that Satan/Lord of Disunity is eternally existing, and/or is real.

Why do you think it should be?

The whole 'serving Satan' and hearing voices thing strikes me as tricky, and I'm a theist. I'm sure you can imagine that from non-theist perspective, this would be borderline delusional, to think you could rightfully discern between the two.

Yup, some would most certainly say I'm delusional!

I believe you can

I believe so too. But for a long time, I got the two confused.

unity and disunity are seen as on nearly identical footing in your understanding of Reality.

Not so. The Lord of Disunity is just one part of Unity, and Unity is Reality.

imagine being in presence of God/dess vs. entertaining idea that you may be serving Satan, but not sure if you are.

Yes, this is indeed difficult.

Wouldn't you think for you personally, there would be distinction between the two, even while ultimately you are under (ultimate) Guidance of God/dess?

The God/dess and Satan are indeed distinct. And I believe I am acting under guidance from The God/dess (not Satan).
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
If it must be included, this reads to me as God wills Disunity (ultimately) or Reality wills Disunity and God allows it, but really doesn't have a choice, other than own preference, which Reality trumps. Thus Reality trumps what God wills.

God is Reality. So there is no Reality trumping God. One way of looking at this is indeed that God wills Disunity. Another is indeed that God does not have a choice in this matter.

*Btw, for this post I'm just going with "God" where I believe you might use "God/dess."

Sure. God, The God/dess, Yahweh, all different Names for Unity.

So, God is both Satan and God?

No. Satan is one part of God. So are you and I, and this keyboard on which I am typing. To take one part and say that is God does not do God justice, so Satan alone is not God, in the same way that this keyboard on which I am typing alone is not God.

somewhere in God is Satan

This is true.

Satan is nothing (not existing) without God

Since there is nothing outside God, yes.

Therefore, God is actually Satan.

No, for the reasons I have given above.

I think you'd say God is foremost God (Unity), but the distinction between God/Satan is what I'm driving at.

See above.

Also driving at the idea that if one is serving Satan, they would ultimately be serving God

No, they would be serving one part of God.

If Disunity is ultimately Unity, then people that serve Disunity (i.e. Satan) are ultimately serving God/Unity.

But the Lord of Disunity is not Unity, just one part of Unity.

The 'apart from each other' is the 'away' thing I was previously having issues with. Still am. Because, I don't see you being clear on where that is. I see it as either the Reality trumps God's preferences for Unity thing mentioned earlier, or that you have variation in understanding 'world of separation' and that ultimately this is God's world, regardless of how far Satan drives things away. But if adding in that Satan is (part of) God, then God wills the separation, in Reality.

As I have said previously, God before 'world of separation', God in 'world of separation' and God after 'world of separation' (before a new 'world of separation') are all different (actual, real) Forms of God.

I'm not clear on how God, in Reality (of knowing that only Unity exists) could ever hate Satan, regardless of what Satan does.

Because God has such a Strong Preference for one Form of God over all others.

For surely Satan is unable to do anything in the Reality you are describing that would ultimately harm God in any conceivable way.

Insofar as God has this Strong Preference, Satan does harm God.

How really does God see God as that relates to Satan.

God hates that part of Theirself that is Satan.

I see it as confusing that Disunity is part of Unity, and that ultimately Unity wins. But isn't way off from my own understandings, other than (again) I see disunity as illusion. I feel you are saying the same thing, but aren't able to say that for sure, because Disunity is real, in some fashion. There is the ultimate thing (that I mentioned above) and there's the understanding of how could Disunity not win if there is, in Reality somewhere to go where God is not (and only Satan is)? Because I think you are saying there is nowhere for Satan to go where God is not, then that tells me that nothing Satan does can actually go against God (in a meaningful way). Though, this would come down, I think to perspective of followers, but none of those perspectives could reasonably trump God's Unity, so again rather meaningless how far apart Satan's followers think they are from God, when in Reality they are (infinitely) close to God.

God triumphs but for a moment (in returning All to God's Strongly Preferred Form, before what you refer to as 'world of separation'), before Satan 'breaks away' again (being Disunity). And so on ad infinitum.

Why not to Jesus, though? Why not write Jesus (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh)?

That would be like writing 'Ya'quub (pbuh)'. It makes no sense to send greetings upon myself.

The understanding that all of Satan's doings are ultimately God's doing.

In the sense that I have tried to explain above.

It's odd to me that God would have preference of one form over another, given that God would know it is all God's form.

Ah, but this is the heart of the matter. God does have this Preference (so God tells me).

IMO, you've effectively taken away all power away from Satan, but perhaps more responses from you will help me identify whatever power you think Satan actually has, and how that could lead to (actual) harm.

No - that part of God that is Satan has a great deal of power. Even God cannot stop Satan from 'breaking away'.

Given that its all Reality for you, and that it's all ultimately God, then clearly God is in a battle that God cannot lose and that Satan cannot win. In some ways, I think this is very simple to understand. What I think makes it a bit challenging is notions that try to purport that maybe Satan could win. I'm unclear on what that looks like. But I imagine it is not far different than my understandings that say as long as time is seen as trumping eternity and separation seen as trumping unity, then whatever self actually believes this (includes God) would suffer. I feel God would never believe this, or IOW, is not insane, so I think you'd say Satan and Satan followers are hoping to fool enough people for say millions of years, and that amounts to 'victory' of some sort. Though what's a million years (or even a trillion years) when compared to eternity? Not to mention how we arrive at length of time that makes for 1 year, which I would think would be nonsensical to God's Unity.

As I have said above, God triumphs but for a moment (in returning All to God's Strongly Preferred Form, before what you refer to as 'world of separation'), before Satan 'breaks away' again (being Disunity). And so on ad infinitum. This Eternal 'cycling back and forth' between God's different Forms is Reality.

If the preference was strong of one form over the other that God would actually hate a form (that is God), then this would be God's undoing (not Satan's).

Yup, as above.
 
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