-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
WW2, The United States, and Nukes
- Thread starter jeffrey
- Start date
opensoul7
Active Member
Iwo Jima , U.S 6,821 killed in action , 19,217 wounded , 2,648 combat fatique , 28,686 total . 23,573 marine casualties , one third of all the marines involved in the invasion were either killed ,wounded , or suffered from combat fatique. The Japanese had a estimated 20,000 killed with 1,083 p.o.w's . http://www.mcldetachments.org/iwojima/iwo%20jima%20articles.htm (I hope I got that link right.
Okinawa, U.S 18,900+ killed ,38,000 wounded ,33,096 non combat wounded . The Japanese had 76,000+ killed (soldiers) 27,000 killed (civilian/armed militia) 7,455 surendered/captured. 150,000+ civilians killed."...having been convinced by Japanese propaganda that the americans were barbarians who commited horible atrocities, killed themselves and their families to avoid capture."
http://en.wickipedia.org/wiki/battle_of_okinawa
The mindset of the Japanese was fight to the last man woman and child .Okinawa and iwo Jima are two examples of the intense fighting in the Pacifc theatre . There are more statistics but I think the message is clear.For the Japanese had revitalized Bushido,the traditional code of the samurai,stressing honor,bravery, self discipline,and simple living.In Bushido it is considered dishonorable to be captured , there is honor though in Seppuku (ritual suicide). It was better to die at your own hands period than to be captured or surender to your enemy. The samurai had no respect for a samurai who surendered, because he was weak and honorless. This is what the Americans were facing , an entire population willing to fight to the death.
since 1930 the military in Japan had control over the goverment. Hedeki Tojo was the head of the Japanese military ,and had the real power and he was not going to surrender. Hirohito was emperor and was more of a figure head , wich is why the alies allowed the provision for him to retain his postion .on July 26,1945 Japan was given a ultimatum demanding unconditional surrender or destruction. Japanese premier Suzuke said Japan would not.August 6,1945 "little boy"is dropped on Hiroshima after warning leaflets had been dropped . Tojo refused to unconditional surrender.August 9,1945 "fatman"is dropped on Nagasaki. August 13 Japan signals for surrender.
The soldiers who were fighting in Europe were being shipped to the Pacific for the fight against Japan. During WW2 there was no 1 year (combat,one and a half marines) tour of duty, you went and you stayed till it was all over.
War is horrible period , it requires horrible acts to achieve winning outcomes. I don't think people truly realize the evil of war and what human beings are capable of. Everyone always says yeah war is bad , but fail to realize the true nature of it .Then they are shocked at what happened during it. Not many look into history and the true nature of war, and others know unfortunatly because of first hand experience , and are haunted the rest of their lives by it.It is easy to sit back and say ,that was unnesessary, or we did not need to do that after the fact.Like they say "hind sight is 20/20" War is evil and sad
and should be avoided at all costs.It is a display in the worst of human nature.
Okinawa, U.S 18,900+ killed ,38,000 wounded ,33,096 non combat wounded . The Japanese had 76,000+ killed (soldiers) 27,000 killed (civilian/armed militia) 7,455 surendered/captured. 150,000+ civilians killed."...having been convinced by Japanese propaganda that the americans were barbarians who commited horible atrocities, killed themselves and their families to avoid capture."
http://en.wickipedia.org/wiki/battle_of_okinawa
The mindset of the Japanese was fight to the last man woman and child .Okinawa and iwo Jima are two examples of the intense fighting in the Pacifc theatre . There are more statistics but I think the message is clear.For the Japanese had revitalized Bushido,the traditional code of the samurai,stressing honor,bravery, self discipline,and simple living.In Bushido it is considered dishonorable to be captured , there is honor though in Seppuku (ritual suicide). It was better to die at your own hands period than to be captured or surender to your enemy. The samurai had no respect for a samurai who surendered, because he was weak and honorless. This is what the Americans were facing , an entire population willing to fight to the death.
since 1930 the military in Japan had control over the goverment. Hedeki Tojo was the head of the Japanese military ,and had the real power and he was not going to surrender. Hirohito was emperor and was more of a figure head , wich is why the alies allowed the provision for him to retain his postion .on July 26,1945 Japan was given a ultimatum demanding unconditional surrender or destruction. Japanese premier Suzuke said Japan would not.August 6,1945 "little boy"is dropped on Hiroshima after warning leaflets had been dropped . Tojo refused to unconditional surrender.August 9,1945 "fatman"is dropped on Nagasaki. August 13 Japan signals for surrender.
The soldiers who were fighting in Europe were being shipped to the Pacific for the fight against Japan. During WW2 there was no 1 year (combat,one and a half marines) tour of duty, you went and you stayed till it was all over.
War is horrible period , it requires horrible acts to achieve winning outcomes. I don't think people truly realize the evil of war and what human beings are capable of. Everyone always says yeah war is bad , but fail to realize the true nature of it .Then they are shocked at what happened during it. Not many look into history and the true nature of war, and others know unfortunatly because of first hand experience , and are haunted the rest of their lives by it.It is easy to sit back and say ,that was unnesessary, or we did not need to do that after the fact.Like they say "hind sight is 20/20" War is evil and sad
and should be avoided at all costs.It is a display in the worst of human nature.Surya Deva
Well-Known Member
Were the terms unacceptable? In the article I quoted the above, the only condition was to keep the emperor in office?
Was that so bad, as to justify the death of 300,000 Japanese? Even if one could justify the first bomb, what justifies the second. If it is indeed true that Japan was ready to capitulate, in other words it was not the completely mental kamikaze nation it was being portrayed as, then I just don't know how Nagasaki and Hiroshima can be jutified.
For me, the most likely of reasons is that America had a new weapon of unimaginable destructive power and used it and sent waves across the world. After all, that is what weapons are created for right? It didn't take long for the weapon to be used, since the Manhattan project.
I just want to ask, as I'm not American, after the attacks, how did this affect the political reputation of Truman back at home?
Was that so bad, as to justify the death of 300,000 Japanese? Even if one could justify the first bomb, what justifies the second. If it is indeed true that Japan was ready to capitulate, in other words it was not the completely mental kamikaze nation it was being portrayed as, then I just don't know how Nagasaki and Hiroshima can be jutified.
For me, the most likely of reasons is that America had a new weapon of unimaginable destructive power and used it and sent waves across the world. After all, that is what weapons are created for right? It didn't take long for the weapon to be used, since the Manhattan project.
I just want to ask, as I'm not American, after the attacks, how did this affect the political reputation of Truman back at home?
gnomon
Well-Known Member
Ask the ten million chinese killed by the Japanese military. This alone in fact states that Japan was a military kamikaze nation for starting a campaign in the Asian and Pacific theatres. You cannot look at one single event in the war as a defining moment.Suraj said:
If the United States would have used more conventional bombing on those two cities with the same amount of life lost (think the firebombing of Dresden) would people even talk about those cities?
No.
Surya Deva
Well-Known Member
You know I understand what you are saying. However, I also undertand that China has done it's fair share of warring and killing. There are always two sides to a story, and I am getting the American version here only. Is there anybody who can represent the Japanese side? It would be interesting to hear what their view on the justification of being nuked is, and what their version of the history is.
opensoul7
Active Member
did you read my post? why did the Japanese not accept surrender before the first bomb was dropped ?or when the leaflets were dropped ? Why not surrender after the first bomb is dropped?why did they start the war in the first place by attacking Pearl harbor? Suzuke said japan would not accept the terms of surrender before the first bomb was dropped.and they did not accept it after the first was dropped.I also stated in my post that war is the worst of human nature.Japan did biological warfare testing on the Chinese during world war two killing thousands of innocent people ,did they need to ? no ,but they did.Japan was not ready to surrender or they would have.and they did have a suicidal mentality based on bushido ,sold to them through propaganda from the Japanese military and goverment.The historical facts are there , there are links in my post.Here is another that answers your questions http://www.ww2pacific.com/surrender.html the question is not about the Americans not doing something ,we were at war , a war we did not start . We gave opportunity for surrender ,the question is why Japanese leadership failed to surrender and save lives.
opensoul7
Active Member
well said gnomon ,I could not remember the death tolls in China by the Japanese. The base for biological warefare study done on live humans by the japanese in China was Ping Fan.And we could also talk about the Rape of Nanjing. http://www.skycitygallery.com/japan/japan.html This link covers those and more ,whats refered to as the Asian holocaust ,done by the Japanese.
Yerda
Veteran Member
I can't help but wonder if a significant display of the power of the weapon would have done the trick.
I've read from many sources that Japan would have surrendered weeks before the first bomb, but with that going against the popular views and a desire to think the best of the state (against all reason I would think) I can understand why Americans reject it.
The saddest thing is that the nukes weren't the worst things that happened during the war. It's a demoralising thought.
I've read from many sources that Japan would have surrendered weeks before the first bomb, but with that going against the popular views and a desire to think the best of the state (against all reason I would think) I can understand why Americans reject it.
The saddest thing is that the nukes weren't the worst things that happened during the war. It's a demoralising thought.
opensoul7
Active Member
The Japanese did have a chance to surender before the first bomb was dropped, on July,26,1945 when the U.S called for their unconditional surender.The japanese did not and the first bomb was dropped on August ,6,1945. This was in my first post (wich only Jeffrey took the time to read it appears)
Quoth The Raven
Half Arsed Muse
Actually, their record with regard to European POW's from other conflicts was outstanding up until then. To the point that according to the documentary I saw there were large numbers of German POW's that were treated so well (*Edit: found a prvious post about this...it was the Russo-Japanese war) that they elected not to go home when it was all over.michel said:
Their customs and culture with regard to war were formulated with a military elite in mind...not the common man that ended up adhering to a bastardised version of a code of honour that never even had them in mind, let alone the Gaigin. They really had low expectations of us in times past, because as an ethinic group we certainly weren't capable of living up to high ones.
What can you expect of people who wont even bathe, for heavens sake?
Quoth The Raven
Half Arsed Muse
I could be way off base here, but I'll take a punt he means something that didn't involve killing people.opensoul7 said:
greatcalgarian
Well-Known Member
On August 6 and 9, 1945, the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed by the first atomic bombs used in warfare.
Documents on the decision to use the atomic bomb are reproduced here in full-text form. In most cases, the originals are in the U.S. National Archives. Other aspects of the decision are shown from accounts by the participants. This page was new May 29, 1995, and it was last updated August 9, 2003.
http://www.dannen.com/decision/index.html
Official Bombing Order, July 25, 1945 - The bombing order issued to General Spaatz made no mention of targetting military objectives or sparing civilians. The cities themselves were the targets.
Documents on the decision to use the atomic bomb are reproduced here in full-text form. In most cases, the originals are in the U.S. National Archives. Other aspects of the decision are shown from accounts by the participants. This page was new May 29, 1995, and it was last updated August 9, 2003.
http://www.dannen.com/decision/index.html
Official Bombing Order, July 25, 1945 - The bombing order issued to General Spaatz made no mention of targetting military objectives or sparing civilians. The cities themselves were the targets.
opensoul7
Active Member
I think that is a safe assumption to take. But what gets through to you clearer, someone who threatens do smack you in the mouth , or someone who actually smacks you in the mouth ? The firebombing did not work , the call for their surrender did not work , so do you just talk some more , mabey go to counseling together...?
greatcalgarian
Well-Known Member
Did Truman pay any attention to this petition?
July 3, 1945
A PETITION TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
Discoveries of which the people of the United States are not aware may affect the welfare of this nation in the near future. The liberation of atomic power which has been achieved places atomic bombs in the hands of the Army. It places in your hands, as Commander-in-Chief, the fateful decision whether or not to sanction the use of such bombs in the present phase of the war against Japan.
We, the undersigned scientists, have been working in the field of atomic power for a number of years. Until recently we have had to reckon with the possibility that the United States might be attacked by atomic bombs during this war and that her only defense might lie in a counterattack by the same means. Today with this danger averted we feel impelled to say what follows:
The war has to be brought speedily to a successful conclusion and the destruction of Japanese cities by means of atomic bombs may very well be an effective method of warfare. We feel, however, that such an attack on Japan could not be justified in the present circumstances. We believe that the United States ought not to resort to the use of atomic bombs in the present phase of the war, at least not unless the terms which will be imposed upon Japan after the war are publicly announced and subsequently Japan is given an opportunity to surrender.
If such public announcement gave assurance to the Japanese that they could look forward to a life devoted to peaceful pursuits in their homeland and if Japan still refused to surrender, our nation would then be faced with a situation which might require a re-examination of her position with respect to the use of atomic bombs in the war.
Atomic bombs are primarily a means for the ruthless annihilation of cities. Once they were introduced as an instrument of war it would be difficult to resist for long the temptation of putting them to such use.
The last few years show a marked tendency toward increasing ruthlessness. At present our Air Forces, striking at the Japanese cities, are using the same methods of warfare which were condemned by American public opinion only a few years ago when applied by the Germans to the cities of England. Our use of atomic bombs in this war would carry the world a long way further on this path of ruthlessness.
Atomic power will provide the nations with new means of destruction. The atomic bombs at our disposal represent only the first step in this direction and there is almost no limit to the destructive power which will become available in the course of this development. Thus a nation which sets the precedent of using these newly liberated forces of nature for purposes of destruction may have to bear the responsibility of opening the door to an era of devastation on an unimaginable scale.
In view of the foregoing, we, the undersigned, respectfully petition that you exercise your power as Commander-in-Chief to rule that the United States shall not, in the present phase of the war, resort to the use of atomic bombs
July 3, 1945
A PETITION TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
Discoveries of which the people of the United States are not aware may affect the welfare of this nation in the near future. The liberation of atomic power which has been achieved places atomic bombs in the hands of the Army. It places in your hands, as Commander-in-Chief, the fateful decision whether or not to sanction the use of such bombs in the present phase of the war against Japan.
We, the undersigned scientists, have been working in the field of atomic power for a number of years. Until recently we have had to reckon with the possibility that the United States might be attacked by atomic bombs during this war and that her only defense might lie in a counterattack by the same means. Today with this danger averted we feel impelled to say what follows:
The war has to be brought speedily to a successful conclusion and the destruction of Japanese cities by means of atomic bombs may very well be an effective method of warfare. We feel, however, that such an attack on Japan could not be justified in the present circumstances. We believe that the United States ought not to resort to the use of atomic bombs in the present phase of the war, at least not unless the terms which will be imposed upon Japan after the war are publicly announced and subsequently Japan is given an opportunity to surrender.
If such public announcement gave assurance to the Japanese that they could look forward to a life devoted to peaceful pursuits in their homeland and if Japan still refused to surrender, our nation would then be faced with a situation which might require a re-examination of her position with respect to the use of atomic bombs in the war.
Atomic bombs are primarily a means for the ruthless annihilation of cities. Once they were introduced as an instrument of war it would be difficult to resist for long the temptation of putting them to such use.
The last few years show a marked tendency toward increasing ruthlessness. At present our Air Forces, striking at the Japanese cities, are using the same methods of warfare which were condemned by American public opinion only a few years ago when applied by the Germans to the cities of England. Our use of atomic bombs in this war would carry the world a long way further on this path of ruthlessness.
Atomic power will provide the nations with new means of destruction. The atomic bombs at our disposal represent only the first step in this direction and there is almost no limit to the destructive power which will become available in the course of this development. Thus a nation which sets the precedent of using these newly liberated forces of nature for purposes of destruction may have to bear the responsibility of opening the door to an era of devastation on an unimaginable scale.
In view of the foregoing, we, the undersigned, respectfully petition that you exercise your power as Commander-in-Chief to rule that the United States shall not, in the present phase of the war, resort to the use of atomic bombs