Would Western countries allow Muslims to have their own judiciary system?

[thomas t]

Yesterday, a fellow poster from the Muslim side asked: "Would you let Muslims to have their own courts and judge amongst themselves according to the Islamic Shariah? NOPE!"

Well, it depends, I think.
Here in Germany for instance, the judiciary system sometimes accept Sharia law for divorce or for inheritance.*


In my opinion there must be a line in the sand, though. There are basic rights for all in society. Nevertheless, anyone is entitled to give up these rights - when they are adults.
As I see it, freedom of religion cannot be given up, though. Apostasy must not be considered a crime.
Also, when they chop off part of the body, the Western health systems should pay for the health consequences then?


For underage persons, the state must ensure

* no female genital mutilation for underage girls

* girls must attend schools including swimming lessons... respecting potential bans on veils in public schools. All girls must have equal opportunities, even the Muslim ones.

* no public corporal punishment/ mutilations of minors of age. These things must not happen:

Maybe I forgot something to consider on the list for minors of age.

* source in German, just to back up my point: Islamisches Recht: Scharia hält Einzug in deutsche Gerichtssäle - WELT

 

[oldbadger]

Yesterday, a fellow poster from the Muslim side asked: "Would you let Muslims to have their own courts and judge amongst themselves according to the Islamic Shariah? NOPE!"

Well, it depends, I think.
Here in Germany for instance, the judiciary system sometimes accept Sharia law for divorce or for inheritance.*


In my opinion there must be a line in the sand, though. There are basic rights for all in society. Nevertheless, anyone is entitled to give up these rights - when they are adults.
As I see it, freedom of religion cannot be given up, though. Apostasy must not be considered a crime.
Also, when they chop off part of the body, the Western health systems should pay for the health consequences then?


For underage persons, the state must ensure

* no female genital mutilation for underage girls

* girls must attend schools including swimming lessons... respecting potential bans on veils in public schools. All girls must have equal opportunities, even the Muslim ones.

* no public corporal punishment/ mutilations of minors of age. These things must not happen:

Maybe I forgot something to consider on the list for minors of age.

* source in German, just to back up my point: Islamisches Recht: Scharia hält Einzug in deutsche Gerichtssäle - WELT

In the UK any clubs or communities can follow their own rules and may appoint people to judge 'situations'.

Even the local golf club can do that.

But all private courts must obey the National Legislation and that includes all religious courts.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yesterday, a fellow poster from the Muslim side asked: "Would you let Muslims to have their own courts and judge amongst themselves according to the Islamic Shariah? NOPE!"

Well, it depends, I think.
Here in Germany for instance, the judiciary system sometimes accept Sharia law for divorce or for inheritance.*


In my opinion there must be a line in the sand, though. There are basic rights for all in society. Nevertheless, anyone is entitled to give up these rights - when they are adults.
As I see it, freedom of religion cannot be given up, though. Apostasy must not be considered a crime.
Also, when they chop off part of the body, the Western health systems should pay for the health consequences then?


For underage persons, the state must ensure

* no female genital mutilation for underage girls

* girls must attend schools including swimming lessons... respecting potential bans on veils in public schools. All girls must have equal opportunities, even the Muslim ones.

* no public corporal punishment/ mutilations of minors of age. These things must not happen:

Maybe I forgot something to consider on the list for minors of age.

* source in German, just to back up my point: Islamisches Recht: Scharia hält Einzug in deutsche Gerichtssäle - WELT

They can have their own judiciary system such as companies having disciplinary systems, but those will have to follow the rules of the country.

 

[Harel13]

* girls must attend schools including swimming lessons... respecting potential bans on veils in public schools. All girls must have equal opportunities, even the Muslim ones.

Why is this a deal-breaker?

 

[thomas t]

Why is this a deal-breaker?

because the girls are underage.
It's discrimination when girls from a traditional Western background may attend swimming lessons and those who have Muslim parents can't.
Once they are adult they can ban themselves from whatever they want, though.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Why is this a deal-breaker?

Yeah, I also don't see what is wrong with the veils. That is just a cultural practice. What next? Are people going to say that girls must wear less clothes and ban clothing that covers more than 25% of the body because as a society we force them to wear clothes through public decency laws?

 

[Harel13]

because the girls are underage.
It's discrimination when girls from a traditional Western background may attend swimming lessons and those who have Muslim parents can't.

Why?
It's up to the parents to decide if they want their children to learn how to swim.
Unless there's some sort of law that says kids must learn how to swim. Is there such a law?

 

[thomas t]

Why?
It's up to the parents to decide if they want their children to learn how to swim.
Unless there's some sort of law that says kids must learn how to swim. Is there such a law?

yes, it's the law of non-discrimination.
And I disagree that it is the right of the parents to decide if their child learns how to swim.
Equal rights for all. Including children.

 

[Harel13]

yes, it's the law of non-discrimination.

How is it discriminatory for parents not to teach their children to swim? Is it equally discriminatory for them not teach their kids to dance? Play baseball? etc?

And I disagree that it is the right of the parents to decide if their child learns how to swim.
Equal rights for all. Including children.

Why is knowing how to swim a right?

 

[epronovost]

In my country, some members of the muslim community have tried to setup Sharia Courts for familly and divorce law. They were refused by the higher courts on account that it would be discriminatory.

 

[thomas t]

Yeah, I also don't see what is wrong with the veils. That is just a cultural practice. What next?

I think it's more. It's spreading the suspect of there being a rapist (molester) around that the girls have to protect themselves from.
This is from Quran:
Quran (33:59) - "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed." This is from the Noble Quran. The word 'annoyed' is yu'dhayna, which actually means 'harmed' or 'hurt' elsewhere in the same sura. How would a woman be 'harmed' for not covering herself? Let's just say that Yusuf Ali translates it as 'molested' - as in a woman could bring sexual abuse on herself if she is not properly covered.

See Islam and Veils

I totally understand that public schools don't tolerate these kinds of reproaches, even in the form of an indirect protection.
In Germany, it is the task of the public judiciary system to ensure that women and girls are prevented from being molested, also in the schools.
It is harming the atmosphere when people suspect their school surrounding of having potential molesters within their ranks.

 

[epronovost]

Why?
It's up to the parents to decide if they want their children to learn how to swim.
Unless there's some sort of law that says kids must learn how to swim. Is there such a law?

If it's in the school cursus, I in the context of the OP it was at school, then it's the law and is considered a basic of physical fitness.

 

[Harel13]

If it's in the school cursus, I in the context of the OP it was at school, then it's the law and is considered a basic of physical fitness.

I didn't see that the OP stated it was part of the state school curriculum, but maybe I missed that part.

 

[thomas t]

Why is knowing how to swim a right?

no, I referred to the right of non-dicrimination. If all other girls have the possibility of learning how to swim.... and just the girl with Muslim parents does not... she is dicriminated against.

How is it discriminatory for parents not to teach their children to swim? Is it equally discriminatory for them not teach their kids to dance? Play baseball? etc?

that wasn't my point, Harel.
It would be discrimination against the girls if the parents would be allowed to ban their girls from attending swimming classes at school.

 

[thomas t]

I didn't see that the OP stated it was part of the state school curriculum, but maybe I missed that part.

yes it is (in Germany). Maybe I should have made that clear....

 

[Spirit of Light]

Yesterday, a fellow poster from the Muslim side asked: "Would you let Muslims to have their own courts and judge amongst themselves according to the Islamic Shariah? NOPE!"

Well, it depends, I think.
Here in Germany for instance, the judiciary system sometimes accept Sharia law for divorce or for inheritance.*


In my opinion there must be a line in the sand, though. There are basic rights for all in society. Nevertheless, anyone is entitled to give up these rights - when they are adults.
As I see it, freedom of religion cannot be given up, though. Apostasy must not be considered a crime.
Also, when they chop off part of the body, the Western health systems should pay for the health consequences then?


For underage persons, the state must ensure

* no female genital mutilation for underage girls

* girls must attend schools including swimming lessons... respecting potential bans on veils in public schools. All girls must have equal opportunities, even the Muslim ones.

* no public corporal punishment/ mutilations of minors of age. These things must not happen:

Maybe I forgot something to consider on the list for minors of age.

* source in German, just to back up my point: Islamisches Recht: Scharia hält Einzug in deutsche Gerichtssäle - WELT

I believe Sharia law only are legal in countries that already are under Islam, that meaning if muslims move to a non muslim country they can not expect this new country to accept Sharia on a national level. And a muslim would have to obey the political law in the new country (as long it does not voilate Islam) But why not be a muslim who follow sharia at home, and accept that some countries does not accept it

 

[Harel13]

yes it is (in Germany). Maybe I should have made that clear....

Ah, well that's something else, I guess. What about private schools for Muslim girls? Must they also teach swimming?

 

[thomas t]

Ah, well that's something else, I guess. What about private schools for Muslim girls? Must they also teach swimming?

in Germany, actually I don't know. Maybe, this is not clear yet. German law requires private schools to adopt the public school curriculum "in essence"*. What "in essence" means with regard to swimming maybe never has been a point of debate here. I couldn't find anything on Google, at least.

Germany does require Muslim girls to attend swimming classes in public schools though.

A Muslim school in Berlin sometimes offers swimming classes for boys and girls seperately, (source in German language : ) Islamische Grundschule Berlin: "Wie jede andere konfessionelle Schule" - Qantara.de

* Privatschulen in Deutschland | bpb

edited to change a word

 

[viole]

Yesterday, a fellow poster from the Muslim side asked: "Would you let Muslims to have their own courts and judge amongst themselves according to the Islamic Shariah? NOPE!"

Well, it depends, I think.
Here in Germany for instance, the judiciary system sometimes accept Sharia law for divorce or for inheritance.*


In my opinion there must be a line in the sand, though. There are basic rights for all in society. Nevertheless, anyone is entitled to give up these rights - when they are adults.
As I see it, freedom of religion cannot be given up, though. Apostasy must not be considered a crime.
Also, when they chop off part of the body, the Western health systems should pay for the health consequences then?


For underage persons, the state must ensure

* no female genital mutilation for underage girls

* girls must attend schools including swimming lessons... respecting potential bans on veils in public schools. All girls must have equal opportunities, even the Muslim ones.

* no public corporal punishment/ mutilations of minors of age. These things must not happen:

Maybe I forgot something to consider on the list for minors of age.

* source in German, just to back up my point: Islamisches Recht: Scharia hält Einzug in deutsche Gerichtssäle - WELT

Of course not.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Samael_Khan]

I think it's more. It's spreading the suspect of there being a rapist (molester) around that the girls have to protect themselves from.
This is from Quran:
Quran (33:59) - "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known so as not to be annoyed." This is from the Noble Quran. The word 'annoyed' is yu'dhayna, which actually means 'harmed' or 'hurt' elsewhere in the same sura. How would a woman be 'harmed' for not covering herself? Let's just say that Yusuf Ali translates it as 'molested' - as in a woman could bring sexual abuse on herself if she is not properly covered.

See Islam and Veils

I totally understand that public schools don't tolerate these kinds of reproaches, even in the form of an indirect protection.
In Germany, it is the task of the public judiciary system to ensure that women and girls are prevented from being molested, also in the schools.
It is harming the atmosphere when people suspect their school surrounding of having potential molesters within their ranks.

There are SO many cases proving that to be true though.... there are loads of cases in my country alone where teachers prey on schoolgirls, raping them, lusting after them and trading higher grades for sex in return. American students are making a big deal out of women not being protected on campus because they on occasion are rapes. The world has a huge paedophile problem as well. People SHOULD be seeking ways to protect their children from predators.

The only problem here is that they do not consider modesty in dress to apply to boys, even though boys also get preyed on by teachers often.