Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

[Katzpur]

I've said from the beginning...works do not save, but we cannot be saved without them.

Amen.

 

[e.r.m.]

I'm also glad I'm in the era of online discussion forums. Socrates made som good points about the inadequacies of the written word compared to thoughtful discussion. Forums like these have great potential for helping us all to help each other to see the truth more clearly.



Were you Fundamentalist, Southern, American or some other flavor of Baptist?

I think Southern. My parents moved us from the Northeast to the Southeast (FL) when I was nine. My mom solidly attended Baptist churches for the next four years and then she then introduced me to what I now believe. She later returned to Baptist. I stayed.

 

[Spockrates]

Yes it is fair to say that I believe that (subject to the obvious caveat that MY acts of love are not causes of justification and salvation, but Jesus' act of love most definitely IS the cause of justification and salvation.)

Perhaps the semi-Calvinist (is it fair to say you are not fully Calvinist since you disagree with Calvin on at least on point?) is that Jesus is the cause of you faith and repentance, and so it's all caused by him.

 

[atpollard]

Perhaps the semi-Calvinist (is it fair to say you are not fully Calvinist since you disagree with Calvin on at least one point?) is that Jesus is the cause of you faith and repentance, and so it's all caused by him.

My reading (which I admit to being quite superficial on the subject) indicated that the term Calvinist was started by the Lutherans to discuss points on which their respective followers disagreed with one another. Recent claims by you and e.r.m. suggest that, at a minimum, Calvinism's namesake may have had feet of clay (although I have no real interest in expending the effort to verify the character of a long dead theologian). Semi-Calvinist may not be the most accurate term. I do agree (with varying convictions) on the 5 basic points of 19th century 'Calvinism' ... Although Reformed Theology might be a more accurate term. Infant Baptism (which you brought up) and murdering political or theological rivals (which e.r.m. brought up) were not among the basic 5 points that I learned defined 'Calvinism'.

Setting aside the semantics of Calvinism, Reformed Theology and my personal beliefs ... Yes, I believe that my faith and repentence are the effect and Jesus Christ is the cause of that effect.

 

[Spockrates]

I think Southern. My parents moved us from the Northeast to the Southeast (FL) when I was nine. My mom solidly attended Baptist churches for the next four years and then she then introduced me to what I now believe. She later returned to Baptist. I stayed.

A couple of Fundamentalist Baptist families spent time with me a a few others when I served in the military in Europe. They were good people and got me reading the Bible for the first time.

So please tell me: What did Mom teach you are the causes of salvation?

 

[Spockrates]

For the record, I agree with e.r.m. about works. If you look at the entire context of Paul's writings through the NT, you will soon realize that he battles constantly with the Judaizers who are leaning on the Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses. Paul uses the phrse "works of the Law" repeatedly in Romans and Galatians. I believe that is what he is referring to in Eph. 2:9.

Paul is saying that grace is not something earned by doing works of tha Law. If the Jews could have kept the Law perfectly, they could have boasted. Then the gift would have been of themselves.

Yes, this is what Catholics tell me they believe, too. Maybe they have some truth about salvation!

The good works in verse 10, I believe, are works of faith (repentance, confession, baptism, etc.) This is what I think Paul meant by "saved by grace THROUGH faith." Many interpret faith to be the gift. I do not.

Seems to me another example of scripture allowing differing interpretations to different people who sincerely seek truth. But I'm more interested in your answer to the next question:

I believe salvation is the gift. The"through faith" is our part. When a gift is offered, it can either be accepted or rejected. You either reach out and take it or you don't. Reaching out and accepting the gift requires action on the part of the person accepting. There's no getting around that. The only other alternative would be that there is no free will to accept or reject, and that's calvinism.

So is it fair to say grace causes salvation, but faith causes works of repentance, confession and baptism, and these works cause us to receive the gift of salvation?

I've said from the beginning...works do not save, but we cannot be saved without them.

Or am I misunderstanding you, and are you saying this? Grace causes our salvation and our faith causes us to receive salvation. This faith also causes works of repentance, confession and baptism, but these works do not cause us to receive salvation.

 

[Spockrates]

My reading (which I admit to being quite superficial on the subject) indicated that the term Calvinist was started by the Lutherans to discuss points on which their respective followers disagreed with one another. Recent claims by you and e.r.m. suggest that, at a minimum, Calvinism's namesake may have had feet of clay (although I have no real interest in expending the effort to verify the character of a long dead theologian). Semi-Calvinist may not be the most accurate term. I do agree (with varying convictions) on the 5 basic points of 19th century 'Calvinism' ... Although Reformed Theology might be a more accurate term. Infant Baptism (which you brought up) and murdering political or theological rivals (which e.r.m. brought up) were not among the basic 5 points that I learned defined 'Calvinism'.

Setting aside the semantics of Calvinism, Reformed Theology and my personal beliefs ... Yes, I believe that my faith and repentence are the effect and Jesus Christ is the cause of that effect.

Thanks. Is it also fair to say that the repentance and faith caused by grace are what cause our salvation--though we cannot take credit for them, for we did not cause them ourselves? Moreover is it accurate to add that this grace also causes good works--such as confession of sins and being baptized--but these works are in no way causes of our salvation?

 

[Spockrates]

Amen.

And I hope the cat has not gotten your tongue, Katzpur! I hope you will join in with the others so we may compare notes. Please tell me: What do you believe are the causes of salvation? I mean, I know Mormons have told me all but a few make it to at least the first level of heaven. But let's say I'm shooting higher. What would cause me to make it to the top? Or if you one of the few Latter Day Saints who have a different view of heaven and salvation, please share what you believe about what is required to make it there.

 

[katiemygirl]

="Spockrates, post: 4275511, member: 56793"]
Or am I misunderstanding you, and are you saying this? Grace causes our salvation and our faith causes us to receive salvation. This faith also causes works of repentance, confession and baptism, but these works do not cause us to receive salvation?

You're close to getting it.

No one would or could ever be saved without the blood of Jesus. He gave His life freely on our behalf. Jesus is the direct and ONLY cause of our salvation. It is by His mercy and His grace.

I don't think faith causes salvation. I believe our faith is the avenue or channel God uses to deliver His gift of salvation. Without that avenue of faith, we can't please God.

Rom. 5:1 says we are justified by faith. Does that mean faith is the cause of forgiveness or salvation? No, I don't think so. Again, faith is the avenue, the channel between us and God. We get faith by hearing the word of God. We can accept the word or reject it. I believe faith is a choice. Faith is our access to the free gift of salvation.

As far as RC's go, they place a whole lot more emphasis on works than I ever would. They believe if you're good, you will go to heaven, or at worst purgatory. I couldn't disagree more. There are many good people who don't believe in God.

 

[Spockrates]

You're close to getting it.

No one would or could ever be saved without the blood of Jesus. He gave His life freely on our behalf. Jesus is the direct and ONLY cause of our salvation. It is by His mercy and His grace.

Yes, I agree Jesus causes our salvation. I wonder if he chooses to be a sufficient cause. Maybe your answer to the next question will prove that he is.

I don't think faith causes salvation. I believe our faith is the avenue or channel God uses to deliver His gift of salvation. Without that avenue of faith, we can't please God.

Have you ever heard the argument made by advocates of the right to bear military-style firearms capable of killing a room full of people in a matter of seconds?

Guns don't kill people--people do!​

While it is true that if an insane shooter mortally wounds me I was killed by him, it is also true that if he had no automatic weapon, I would never be shot! One might say I was shot by him through the weapon, but both are causes, I think. Do you disagree with me?

Rom. 5:1 says we are justified by faith. Does that mean faith is the cause of forgiveness or salvation? No, I don't think so. Again, faith is the avenue, the channel between us and God. We get faith by hearing the word of God. We can accept the word or reject it. I believe faith is a choice. Faith is our access to the free gift of salvation.

As far as RC's go, they place a whole lot more emphasis on works than I ever would. They believe if you're good, you will go to heaven, or at worst purgatory. I couldn't disagree more. There are many good people who don't believe in God.

That remains to be seen. First let me know if you believe guns are a cause--though not a sufficient cause--of death.

 

[atpollard]

Thanks. Is it also fair to say that the repentance and faith caused by grace are what cause our salvation--though we cannot take credit for them, for we did not cause them ourselves? Moreover is it accurate to add that this grace also causes good works--such as confession of sins and being baptized--but these works are in no way causes of our salvation?

Trust me.
At first, this may not seem like I am answering your question, but I think that I am:

Have you ever hugged an angry child?
They are stiff and resistant and it is a very ackward experience.
If you are lucky, at some point the love will break through and the anger will melt and they will return the embrace.
It is one of those everyday miracles designed to teach us about God.

The cause of my salvation is that God decided to become incarnate in the person of Jesus, to die on a cross as the ultimate demonstration of His infinite love for me, to rise from the dead in triumphant procession - his deeds declairing the truth more loud and clear than any word of man or angel ever could, and then Jesus sought out a lost, dirty, angry me ... Jesus threw his arms of love around me and very slowly melted away my stiff anger ... holding on to me until I was able to return the love and embrace. Then Jesus could start to work on washing the dirt off my face and getting me some clean clothes to wear.

Grace is Jesus choosing to embrace the dirty, angry child and to hold on until my heart of stone had melted enough to be able to reciprocate that love.
Repentance and Faith are the change that goes on inside of me between the moment that Jesus first embraces a stiff angry me, until the moment that I return that embrace.
Salvation is that entire process from the moment Jesus first loved me in eternity past until I arrive at his house to live forever. From Jesus incarnation to my first returning His embrace is called Justification. The process of cleaning me up, which begins when I return his embrace, is called Sanctification. When he scoops me into his arms and swings me around, giggling uncontrollably, in the living room of our new home is called Glorification.

"all of life illustrates Bible doctrine" - Donald Grey Barnhouse


[P.S. Hey e.r.m., have you ever heard "T.U.L.I.P." expressed like that? ]

 

[Spockrates]

Trust me.
At first, this may not seem like I am answering your question, but I think that I am:

Have you ever hugged an angry child?
They are stiff and resistant and it is a very ackward experience.
If you are lucky, at some point the love will break through and the anger will melt and they will return the embrace.
It is one of those everyday miracles designed to teach us about God.

The cause of my salvation is that God decided to become incarnate in the person of Jesus, to die on a cross as the ultimate demonstration of His infinite love for me, to rise from the dead in triumphant procession - his deeds declairing the truth more loud and clear than any word of man or angel ever could, and then Jesus sought out a lost, dirty, angry me ... Jesus threw his arms of love around me and very slowly melted away my stiff anger ... holding on to me until I was able to return the love and embrace. Then Jesus could start to work on washing the dirt off my face and getting me some clean clothes to wear.

Grace is Jesus choosing to embrace the dirty, angry child and to hold on until my heart of stone had melted enough to be able to reciprocate that love.
Repentance and Faith are the change that goes on inside of me between the moment that Jesus first embraces a stiff angry me, until the moment that I return that embrace.
Salvation is that entire process from the moment Jesus first loved me in eternity past until I arrive at his house to live forever. From Jesus incarnation to my first returning His embrace is called Justification. The process of cleaning me up, which begins when I return his embrace, is called Sanctification. When he scoops me into his arms and swings me around, giggling uncontrollably, in the living room of our new home is called Glorification.

"all of life illustrates Bible doctrine" - Donald Grey Barnhouse


[P.S. Hey e.r.m., have you ever heard "T.U.L.I.P." expressed like that? ]

I'd say you are telling this kid who could use a bath: Christ is the cause of causes. The secondary causes Christ causes, which are causes of salvation and are repentance and faith. These secondary causes are causes not caused by me, but caused by Christ alone. The conclusion is Christ is in effect the only primary cause, albeit faith and repentance are certainly secondary causes of salvation, which are caused only by Christ. Do I gave cause to conclude you concur?

 

[atpollard]

I'd say you are telling this kid who could use a bath: Christ is the cause of causes. The secondary causes Christ causes, which are causes of salvation and are repentance and faith. These secondary causes are causes not caused by me, but caused by Christ alone. The conclusion is Christ is in effect the only primary cause, albeit faith and repentance are certainly secondary causes of salvation, which are caused only by Christ. Do I gave cause to conclude you concur?

Yup ... not that I could say that ten times fast.

 

[Spockrates]

Yup ... not that I could say that ten times fast.

LOL! So would you also say believing this way is what saving faith is?

 

[Spockrates]

I mean, let's say someone does not believe repentance is a cause of salvation and so he does not repent. Still he believes he is saved. Would we have cause for concern?

* * *

Edit: Wait! What am I asking? Believing what repentance really is, is no more faith than believing what faith really is! Such knowing is not faith, but wisdom, I believe.

I suppose, then we have three, not two secondary causes of salvation, each caused by God himself--repentance, faith and wisdom. A more complete description of how to be saved, then might be this:

By grace you are saved, through faith [and repentance and wisdom]--not by works, so that no one can boast.

(Ephesians 2:8-9)
​

Don't you think?

 

[e.r.m.]

Trust me.
At first, this may not seem like I am answering your question, but I think that I am:

Have you ever hugged an angry child?
They are stiff and resistant and it is a very ackward experience.
If you are lucky, at some point the love will break through and the anger will melt and they will return the embrace.
It is one of those everyday miracles designed to teach us about God.

The cause of my salvation is that God decided to become incarnate in the person of Jesus, to die on a cross as the ultimate demonstration of His infinite love for me, to rise from the dead in triumphant procession - his deeds declairing the truth more loud and clear than any word of man or angel ever could, and then Jesus sought out a lost, dirty, angry me ... Jesus threw his arms of love around me and very slowly melted away my stiff anger ... holding on to me until I was able to return the love and embrace. Then Jesus could start to work on washing the dirt off my face and getting me some clean clothes to wear.

Grace is Jesus choosing to embrace the dirty, angry child and to hold on until my heart of stone had melted enough to be able to reciprocate that love.
Repentance and Faith are the change that goes on inside of me between the moment that Jesus first embraces a stiff angry me, until the moment that I return that embrace.
Salvation is that entire process from the moment Jesus first loved me in eternity past until I arrive at his house to live forever. From Jesus incarnation to my first returning His embrace is called Justification. The process of cleaning me up, which begins when I return his embrace, is called Sanctification. When he scoops me into his arms and swings me around, giggling uncontrollably, in the living room of our new home is called Glorification.

"all of life illustrates Bible doctrine" - Donald Grey Barnhouse


[P.S. Hey e.r.m., have you ever heard "T.U.L.I.P." expressed like that? ]

Nope.

 

[e.r.m.]

A couple of Fundamentalist Baptist families spent time with me a a few others when I served in the military in Europe. They were good people and got me reading the Bible for the first time.

So please tell me: What did Mom teach you are the causes of salvation?

She didn't. Those from Church of Christ did. The scriptures I mentioned earlier Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and others. Not that their the causes, but the crossing point. God/Jesus is still the cause.

 

[katiemygirl]

Yes, I agree Jesus causes our salvation. I wonder if he chooses to be a sufficient cause. Maybe your answer to the next question will prove that he is.



Have you ever heard the argument made by advocates of the right to bear military-style firearms capable of killing a room full of people in a matter of seconds?

Guns don't kill people--people do!​

While it is true that if an insane shooter mortally wounds me I was killed by him, it is also true that if he had no automatic weapon, I would never be shot! One might say I was shot by him through the weapon, but both are causes, I think. Do you disagree with me?



That remains to be seen. First let me know if you believe guns are a cause--though not a sufficient cause--of death.

No, guns are not the cause.

Guns are the means. People are the cause. Faith is the means (access, avenue, channel), Jesus is the cause. How do you see it? Do you think faith causes us to be saved?

 

[katiemygirl]

She didn't. Those from Church of Christ did. The scriptures I mentioned earlier Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and others. Not that their the causes, but the crossing point. God/Jesus is still the cause.

We think alike.

P.S. I sent you a private message.

 

[e.r.m.]

We think alike.

P.S. I sent you a private message.

I responded.