Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

[Spockrates]

I believe that the story of the thief on the cross beside Jesus does a good job of illustrating what is required from us ...

Luke 23:42-43

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”​

God expects us to lean (place all of the weight of our hope for getting into Heaven) on Jesus Christ and his work on our behalf.

• Thus it is GRACE ... unearned and not the wages of our own good works.
• This Grace is acquired by FAITH ... our decision to build our hope upon the promise and work of Jesus life, death and resurrection.
• This Faith is the GIFT OF GOD ... In my personal case, it was not my deep spiritual efforts that empowered me to find faith in Jesus. If I am honest, I had no real interest in finding God or Jesus. I just didn't care. It was God who pursued and wooed me over to a decision to consider that I might be willing to think about trusting him. God honored each baby step that he coaxed out of me, until one day I looked back and found myself walking ... following him.

From this personal experience of reality, I willingly respond with service to God, freely given.
Not in any effort to balance a scale of justice ... there are not sufficient good deeds to outweigh my debt of sin.
Not in any effort to buy favor with a Holy God ... I believe the scripture when it describes my best efforts as "filthy rags" and, frankly, attempting to buy love feels very crass.
Rather, my service is a gift from a grateful heart to his loving God.

Thus the reason to be concerned where you see no works is not because the Grace may not have been paid for (it cannot be paid for), but because the lack of gratitude suggests that the Grace was never received.

Atpollard:

Glad you joined us. What about repentance?

The criminal on the cross close to Christ chooses to change from condemning Christ to condoning Christ. Can you concur?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Or are you saying Paul never did choose the word faith and the translation of the text is in error?

I think that 'Faith' was an appropriate translation for the KJV 200 years ago, but I think in more modern translations like NIV, 'Faith' is the wrong word for this verse. The English language has changed enough over the last 200 years that 'Faith' no longer means what it meant when the KJV was printed.

 

[Spockrates]

I think that 'Faith' was an appropriate translation for the KJV 200 years ago, but I think in more modern translations like NIV, 'Faith' is the wrong word for this verse. The English language has changed enough over the last 200 years that 'Faith' no longer means what it meant when the KJV was printed.

Well, there are modern translations that are not translations of the KJV, but are instead translations of the ancient manuscripts. The NIV, for example is the work of translators who were experts able to read and understand the Ancient Greek and used the extant MSS as their sources.

Now I know of no credible translation that translates the word in Ephesians 2:8 as anything other than the word faith. To convince me it is incorrectly translated, you would have to (1) demonstrate you have mastered the anchient Greek language and (2) provide a logical explanation why these credible translations chooses to use the word, which you yourself believe to be inappropriate.

But before you provide such evidence, please tell me. Are you saying the word faith in Ephesians 2:8 should be translated as faithfulness? That is, is this a more appropriate rendering of the text?

For by grace you are saved through [faithfulness].

(Ephesians 2:8)​

 

[lovemuffin]

I think what brick means is not so much that "faith" isn't the most appropriate english word to use to translate πιστεως (pisteos), but more that the ancient greek meaning of the word isn't perfectly captured by the english "faith", especially in recent years when "faith" has come to be understood almost entirely as a category in relation to "belief" and "knowledge", in the sense that people think of "having faith" as meaning primarily expressing belief in the existence of God, or that Jesus rose from the dead, or etc. The emphasis in most modern usage is belief, but that doesn't capture everything that pisteos means. An example is in many translations Matthew 23:23 translates the same word as "faithfulness" because it fits the context better:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness..."
​

It's not that the pharisees didn't express a properly pious belief about God, but that they weren't faithful to living in a way that is appropriate to the commandments. That is, the rebuke should be heard in context with Jesus' exhortations that the whole of the law was to love God and to love your neighbor. They weren't loving, and thus they were not faithful, even if they believed in God

 

[Pegg]

I agree about the need for analysis. But please provide an example of an idea I've proposed, which you know is unbiblical.

Hell.

I know what many christians believe hell to be. What do you believe it to be?

I concur. So in analyzing what Jesus said, would you say it is logical to induce that he did not have the authority to give, but illogical to assume that he did not know?

Well what does the scripture tell you? It says that Jesus did not have the authority to give positions in the heavenly kingdom.

Where does 'I do not know' come into it?

That is, wouldn't assuming so be commiting the informal fallacy of making an argument from ignorance? Or does the fact he did not say anything about whether or not he knew sufficiently prove it was unknown to him?

He simply told them that he did not have authority to give someone a position in the kingdom. We dont need to add anything further...when we do, we are no longer learning from Jesus Apostles.

Again, I agree. But the question asked in the opening post still remains unanswered, I believe. Please don't keep me in suspense! Tell me, my friend: Exactly what are the requirements a chosen one must meet to be saved? If you are not sure, that's OK. Just let me know you are in the same boat of ignorance as myself.

The NT is clear that we must be holy in all our conduct.
We must put on the new personality.
‘put away the old personality which conformed to their former course of conduct and put on the new personality created according to God’s will.’ (Eph. 4:22-24)

We must comply with Gods laws.
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will observe my commandments

We must preach the good news of the kingdom.
“Preach the word, be at it urgently.”—2 TIMOTHY 4:2.

We must meet with like minded christians and support one another.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider* one another so as to incite* to love and fine works,+25 not forsaking our meeting together

We must repent and be baptised.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them: “Repent,+ and let each one of you be baptized+ in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins,+ and you will receive the free gift of the holy spirit.

We must be willing to follow Jesus example and die for our faith if required.
Matt 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake* and keep following me.+25 For whoever wants to save his life* will lose it, but whoever loses his life* for my sake will find it

This list is certainly not exhaustive, there is much we must do to be saved. Its not a simple case of 'believe' and you are saved. Your relationship with God is also very important and your knowledge of God must be based on truth.Your life and personality must be of a high standard and in harmony with Gods Will and with his holiness. So if anyone ever says all you need is faith, they are wrong. The scriptures have many boxes that must be ticked and it will take us many years of getting it right before we can tick them all.

 

[Desert Snake]

Hi. So I've heard it said we are saved from hell by grace alone through faith alone. The grace is God's part and faith is our part. But I wonder if faith is the only condition we must meet. One biblical passage we might consider is:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast.10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2)
​

The reason it states that one is saved by grace alone is because....grace can save, even with imperfect works; whereas works cannot save at all except when it is combined with grace.

I don't believe that the message is literally, grace alone saves, so forget about works. Works have always been a part of theological consideration, in fact, ''works'' can even mean different things. We are expected to act as Xians or under the New Covenant, however, we are not expected to go along with the wimsy of non-Xian interpretation of what constitutes ''works''.

 

[atpollard]

Atpollard:
Glad you joined us. What about repentance?
The criminal on the cross close to Christ chooses to change from condemning Christ to condoning Christ. Can you concur?

I am in favor of repentance.

(I think that I will probably need to apologize in advance, but I find that some spiritual truths are easier to communicate on the street than in the church. So ...)

Some people are convinced that their 'sh*t don't stink'.
They don't have any problems.
They don't need a savior, because they really aren't that bad.

How can anyone come to a place of accepting GRACE when they have no need of it?
So I see repentence as the mental prerequisite for accepting Grace and reaching a place of Faith (trust/belief in Jesus).

 

[katiemygirl]

="Spockrates, post: 4239970, member: 56793"]Thank you, MyGirl. Is this an exhaustive list, or are there perhaps other conditions I must meet to be saved?"

There are many verses in the NT that deal with salvation. We are told that the gospel saves. The blood of Jesus saves. Faith saves. I cannot possibly give you an exhaustive list. You'll have to read the NT for yourself.

Salvation is conditional. So is God's grace. His grace is a free gift. We cannot earn it, nor do we deserve it. However, His grace comes to us through our faith. Faith is our part. Faith will result in repentance, baptism and living a life of service to God. Do you agree?

I suspect from all of your questions to everyone that you are Calvinist.

How about being up front and telling us what you believe about salvation?

 

[katiemygirl]

...grace can save, even with imperfect works; whereas works cannot save at all except when it is combined with grace.

I don't believe that the message is literally, grace alone saves, so forget about works. Works have always been a part of theological consideration, in fact, ''works'' can even mean different things. We are expected to act as Xians or under the New Covenant, however, we are not expected to go along with the wimsy of non-Xian interpretation of what constitutes ''works''.

Hello Disciple.

You said,

"The reason it states that one is saved by grace alone is because..."

Where does it state one is saved by grace ALONE in the Scriptures???

 

[katiemygirl]

="atpollard, post: 4240010, member: 56780"]I believe that the story of the thief on the cross beside Jesus does a good job of illustrating what is required from us ...

I disagree with you. Here's why.

The thief WAS NOT saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ. He did not have the faith required by the gospel, like we do, which is to believe that Jesus died, was buried and raised from the dead..

Before He died on the cross, Jesus forgave people directly as He chose. Since His death, we must meet the terms of His will to be forgiven.

I am not saying that the thief didn't have faith. I'm saying he didn't have the faith which is required of us in the gospel of Jesus Christ. The thief could not believe in the resurrection of Jesus because it hadn't happened yet.

The truth is that the thief was not saved under the same law and dispensation that we are under. He was still under the Old Testament, not the gospel. That is why the thief was not required to believe what we must believe nor to receive the same baptism that we must receive. The terms of his forgiveness teach us nothing about what we must do to be saved.

Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection are the fundamental facts of the gospel that we must receive, believe, and hold fast in order to be saved. The thief on the cross could not possibly believe Jesus had been raised from the dead, because He had not yet died, let alone been buried and raised.

Romans 10:9 - If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

So, to have the faith required by the gospel, we must believe that God "has raised" Jesus from the dead.

The point is that the thief was saved before the terms of the gospel came into effect. So we cannot use his case to prove one way or the other what people must do today to be saved.

We have two excellent examples of "WHAT WE MUST DO TO BE SAVED" in Acts 2:36-41 and Acts 16:25-34.

 

[katiemygirl]

Thank you, MyGirl. Is this an exhaustive list, or are there perhaps other conditions I must meet to be saved?

Please state your beliefs about what we must do to be saved.

 

[Spockrates]

I think what brick means is not so much that "faith" isn't the most appropriate english word to use to translate πιστεως (pisteos), but more that the ancient greek meaning of the word isn't perfectly captured by the english "faith", especially in recent years when "faith" has come to be understood almost entirely as a category in relation to "belief" and "knowledge", in the sense that people think of "having faith" as meaning primarily expressing belief in the existence of God, or that Jesus rose from the dead, or etc. The emphasis in most modern usage is belief, but that doesn't capture everything that pisteos means. An example is in many translations Matthew 23:23 translates the same word as "faithfulness" because it fits the context better:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness..."
​

It's not that the pharisees didn't express a properly pious belief about God, but that they weren't faithful to living in a way that is appropriate to the commandments. That is, the rebuke should be heard in context with Jesus' exhortations that the whole of the law was to love God and to love your neighbor. They weren't loving, and thus they were not faithful, even if they believed in God

Well Named:

Welcome, and your knowledge is much appreciated! Speaking of knowledge, the word reminds me of something I learned about the Greek language that demonstrates the truth of your opinion. Please let me briefly explain:

When reading an English translation of Plato's Theatetus, I became puzzled by Socrates' question to the young Teatetus, "What is knowledge?" and "Is it different from wisdom?" For the two men quickly dismissed the idea that anything untrue could possibly be knowledge.

The conclusion at which they arrived after some discussion is that knowledge is true opinion. It became apparent to me that what Socrates was really asking is, "What is truth, and is it different from wisdom?" So I wondered why the translator did not simply use the word truth instead of knowledge, since in English, knowledge carries the meaning of something known, whether true or false.

So please tell me: Are you saying the Greek word pronounced pistis always means both faith and faithfulness? Or is your true opinion that it sometimes means faith and sometimes means faithfulness but does not always carry both meanings at the same time?

 

[Spockrates]

Hell.

I know what many christians believe hell to be. What do you believe it to be?

I do not know. I used the word for clarity, even though its meaning is ironically unclear to me! but you are correct. Paul does not say from what we are saved in Ephesians 2.

Well what does the scripture tell you? It says that Jesus did not have the authority to give positions in the heavenly kingdom.

Where does 'I do not know' come into it?

I thought your point was that he did not know. Please accept my apologies.

... The NT is clear that we must be holy in all our conduct.
We must put on the new personality.
‘put away the old personality which conformed to their former course of conduct and put on the new personality created according to God’s will.’ (Eph. 4:22-24)

We must comply with Gods laws.
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will observe my commandments

We must preach the good news of the kingdom.
“Preach the word, be at it urgently.”—2 TIMOTHY 4:2.

We must meet with like minded christians and support one another.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider* one another so as to incite* to love and fine works,+25 not forsaking our meeting together

We must repent and be baptised.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them: “Repent,+ and let each one of you be baptized+ in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins,+ and you will receive the free gift of the holy spirit.

We must be willing to follow Jesus example and die for our faith if required.
Matt 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake* and keep following me.+25 For whoever wants to save his life* will lose it, but whoever loses his life* for my sake will find it

This list is certainly not exhaustive, there is much we must do to be saved. Its not a simple case of 'believe' and you are saved. Your relationship with God is also very important and your knowledge of God must be based on truth.Your life and personality must be of a high standard and in harmony with Gods Will and with his holiness. So if anyone ever says all you need is faith, they are wrong. The scriptures have many boxes that must be ticked and it will take us many years of getting it right before we can tick them all.

Yes, I see that. I think a good place to start--with those who tell me faith alone is required--is with scriptures regarding repentance.

So then, I wonder why so many believe faith is all that is required. I don't believe ignorance is always the cause. For I've listened to some highly intelligent and articulate apologists explain and defend the idea. To support their views, they even quote such great thinkers as Martin Luther, John Wesley and John Calvin.

 

[Spockrates]

The reason it states that one is saved by grace alone is because....grace can save, even with imperfect works; whereas works cannot save at all except when it is combined with grace.

I don't believe that the message is literally, grace alone saves, so forget about works. Works have always been a part of theological consideration, in fact, ''works'' can even mean different things. We are expected to act as Xians or under the New Covenant, however, we are not expected to go along with the wimsy of non-Xian interpretation of what constitutes ''works''.

Hi, Disciple. Would you say there is a difference between the works mentioned in verse 9 and the works of verse 10?

9 ...not by works, so that no one can boast.10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
(Ephesians 2)
​

 

[Spockrates]

I am in favor of repentance.

(I think that I will probably need to apologize in advance, but I find that some spiritual truths are easier to communicate on the street than in the church. So ...)

Some people are convinced that their 'sh*t don't stink'.
They don't have any problems.
They don't need a savior, because they really aren't that bad.

How can anyone come to a place of accepting GRACE when they have no need of it?
So I see repentence as the mental prerequisite for accepting Grace and reaching a place of Faith (trust/belief in Jesus).

As am I, though I hope to not so frequently prove myself a liar by my actions.

So then, to those who try to educate us by saying, "Paul makes it clear you are saved by grace alone through faith alone!" how should we respond?

 

[Spockrates]

Please state your beliefs about what we must do to be saved.

I don't know what to believe. That's why I'm here.

 

[katiemygirl]

I don't know what to believe. That's why I'm here.

Have you read the New Testament? The answers are there and not difficult to understand.

 

[Spockrates]

There are many verses in the NT that deal with salvation. We are told that the gospel saves. The blood of Jesus saves. Faith saves. I cannot possibly give you an exhaustive list. You'll have to read the NT for yourself.

Salvation is conditional. So is God's grace. His grace is a free gift. We cannot earn it, nor do we deserve it. However, His grace comes to us through our faith. Faith is our part. Faith will result in repentance, baptism and living a life of service to God. Do you agree?

I suspect from all of your questions to everyone that you are Calvinist.

How about being up front and telling us what you believe about salvation?

Thanks, MyGirl. I've spent much of my life talking about Christian beliefs with Fundamentalists and Evangelicals. They tell me the word grace means God's unconditional love. They say unconditional love has no conditions, so being saved by grace must mean I need not meet any conditions to receive the free gift of eternal life, other than to accept it through faith.

But are you saying grace is not what they say? Are you saying grace is actually God's conditional love?

 

[katiemygirl]

As am I, though I hope to not so frequently prove myself a liar by my actions.

So then, to those who try to educate us by saying, "Paul makes it clear you are saved by grace alone through faith alone!" how should we respond?

You should respond by asking them to show you just ONE Scripture in the Bible that outright says this.

What you will get is a bunch of verses strung together and that person's conclusion because there is no verse that says this.

 

[katiemygirl]

Thanks, MyGirl. I've spent much of my life talking about Christian beliefs with Fundamentalists and Evangelicals. They tell me the word grace means God's unconditional love. They say unconditional love has no conditions, so being saved by grace must mean I need not meet any conditions to receive the free gift of eternal life, other than to accept it through faith.

But are you saying grace is not what they say? Are you saying grace is actually God's conditional love?

I agree that God's love is unconditional. He loves even the worst of sinners. He hates sin but loves sinners.

God's unconditional love is not the same as God's grace. They are two different things. His love is unconditional. His grace is not.

If God's grace were unconditional, then everyone would be saved.

Salvation, however, is conditional!

God sheds His grace on us every day of our lives. Life itself and the very air we breathe is due to God's grace. We do nothing to earn this grace. God gives it freely.

I don't think anyone on this thread has defined God's grace. The only thing I am disagreeing with is that we are saved by grace ALONE.

Jesus laid down certain conditions for salvation. Faith is but one of them. When a person has faith in Jesus, obedience to His will follows.

I am not evangelical or a fundamentalist. I am simply a christian.

I'm happy you have started this thread. You are asking good questions. Thank you for explaining your position.