katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
It's not God who is unable to hold up His part. It is men who are unwilling to heed the call. I know we don't agree on this point, and that's okay. We both love the Lord, and I am happy to leave it in His hands.
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Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)
- Thread starter Spockrates
- Start date
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Okay, but when you say that salvation is within your reach, you are implying that you have to do something more than merely "give a damn." How do you believe we go about "reaching" for it?
Actually, we agree on this.It's not God who is unable to hold up His part. It is men who are unwilling to heed the call. I know we don't agree on this point, and that's okay. We both love the Lord, and I am happy to leave it in His hands.
Some, like you, probably believe that God calls out to all people (which I sort of agree with, and sort of don't).
Some, like me, believe that God makes an irresistable call to some so that not all will be lost (which you probably disagree with).
Neither of us believe that God's arm is short.
Work out your salvation with fear and trembling by doing what Jesus requires of you.
So much ink (and blood) has been spilled over this that I have no real desire to exert a lot of time just chasing after idle questions.
Do you believe that you are currently unsaved and really want answers to serious personal questions?
(If so, then send me a private message and I will invest as much time and energy as you might require.)
If not, then read the bible and figure it out for yourself.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
It wasn't an idle question. I know what I believe Jesus requires of us. I was hoping to learn what you believe He requires.
No, I fully believe I'm saved. Sorry my questions/comments irritated you. You seem like a nice person and, even though, we may have some disagreements with respect to Christian doctrine, I had hoped that we could have a civil conversation.
I wasn't angry, just tired ... I can feel for the JW and Catholics around here since as a believer in "Reformed Theology" (aka. 5 point Calvinism) I get a lot of questions that are not really intended to ask a question, but just to set up the conversation for the delivery of a tired old one line attack (usually about my belief in a horrible mean God). I was afraid that I was retreading some same old territory.
So what I think is required can be summed up as:
I believe that the story of the thief on the cross beside Jesus does a good job of illustrating what is required from us ...
Luke 23:42-43
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
God expects us to lean (place all of the weight of our hope for getting into Heaven) on Jesus Christ and his work on our behalf.
- Thus it is GRACE ... unearned and not the wages of our own good works.
- This Grace is acquired by FAITH ... our decision to build our hope upon the promise and work of Jesus life, death and resurrection.
- This Faith is the GIFT OF GOD ... In my personal case, it was not my deep spiritual efforts that empowered me to find faith in Jesus. If I am honest, I had no real interest in finding God or Jesus. I just didn't care. It was God who pursued and wooed me over to a decision to consider that I might be willing to think about trusting him. God honored each baby step that he coaxed out of me, until one day I looked back and found myself walking ... following him.
Not in any effort to balance a scale of justice ... there are not sufficient good deeds to outweigh my debt of sin.
Not in any effort to buy favor with a Holy God ... I believe the scripture when it describes my best efforts as "filthy rags" and, frankly, attempting to buy love feels very crass.
Rather, my service is a gift from a grateful heart to his loving God.
Thus the reason to be concerned where you see no works is not because the Grace may not have been paid for (it cannot be paid for), but because the lack of gratitude suggests that the Grace was never received.
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Spockrates
Wonderer.
...
Sorry for the delay in responding. Relatives visiting from out of town.
At the Evangelical Presbyterian church where I was once a member, there was a moto on the door: "In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity." It seems that the 5% where you disagree with Atpollard has to do with essentials of the faith--what one must do to be saved from hell. You say baptism is required. He says it is not. Aren't you putting your faith in something different from him?
Sorry for the delay in responding. Relatives visiting from out of town.
At the Evangelical Presbyterian church where I was once a member, there was a moto on the door: "In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity." It seems that the 5% where you disagree with Atpollard has to do with essentials of the faith--what one must do to be saved from hell. You say baptism is required. He says it is not. Aren't you putting your faith in something different from him?
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
I think so. But I think God also calls people to respond who don't have the desire. God calls all people to respond Acts 17:30.
No, but I am bewildered as to why you would ask this.
Technically, Katiemygirl would be in more trouble if I was in charge of who is saved, and I would be in more trouble if Katiemygirl was in charge of who is saved, but since Jesus is in charge of who is saved, then she and I are both trusting in the same place....
Sorry for the delay in responding. Relatives visiting from out of town.
At the Evangelical Presbyterian church where I was once a member, there was a moto on the door: "In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity." It seems that the 5% where you disagree with Atpollard has to do with essentials of the faith--what one must do to be saved from hell. You say baptism is required. He says it is not. Aren't you putting your faith in something different from him?
Now I would probably be a terrible choice to host a baptism class at her church.
But that is not a reason to break fellowship ... I suspect that even the Evangelical Presbyterian church might agree. Both questions were laying a foundation for THIS important truth:
Which was the point of the post that I made:
To which you responded:
IN SUMMARY:
No, the desire does not mean that you are saved, but it does mean that you can be.
In my world, to be certain that salvation is with your reach is a VERY HUGE DEAL.
(It literally saved my life.)
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Not to worry. I can totally relate.
Okay, a lot of what you just said resonated very strongly with me. I'm surprised (but happily so) because I strongly suspected we had very little in common. It appears as if I was wrong.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
I agree with your conclusion, and although salvation being within reach is a big deal, it's also commonplace, not something unique.
Acts 17:26-27 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. [27] God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
It's man who rejects God.
Unfortunately, in my experience, most men choose to reject Him and many of the people that I knew growing up would have laughed in your face at the suggestion that God gave a rats *** about them ... that we could be forgiven after what we did ... almost daily ... was virtually unimaginable.
I think that a lot of people seriously need to hear that God cares and hope is within reach.
I am called to dumpster dive back into the darkness to follow the advice of General Booth to "go for sinners and go for the worst". (While I have no particular luck or skill at evangelism, I have received the privilege and grace to help those willing to struggle to find a little firmer footing on the narrow path).
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
I would bet all I own, were I a betting woman...
Sorry for the delay in responding. Relatives visiting from out of town.
At the Evangelical Presbyterian church where I was once a member, there was a moto on the door: "In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity." It seems that the 5% where you disagree with Atpollard has to do with essentials of the faith--what one must do to be saved from hell. You say baptism is required. He says it is not. Aren't you putting your faith in something different from him?
, that atpollard has been baptized.The question becomes "Why was Arthur baptized?" I would say he was baptized for the same reason I was. It was because his Lord commanded him to be. Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Jesus also said, "Why call Me Lord and not do as I say?" My guess is that Arthur made Jesus his Lord sometime back. He also loves the Lord as I do. So he obeyed.
Arthur may have had more reasons than what I wrote above. He can speak to those other reasons. I think he would agree with what I wrote in the previous paragraph.
Whether Arthur or I consider it necessary is beside the point. We were both baptized. As a matter of fact, I think all christians have been baptized, maybe not immersed, but have been baptized according to their own way of thinking.
Most important is that we can still be unified and in total fellowship with one another. You see, I don't believe that God ever expected us to agree on every detail, but He expects us to stay unified. Don't you agree?
For the record, I believe baptism is commanded in the Scriptures. How Jesus judges those who are never baptized is not my call, but His alone. Our God is a loving and merciful God. I leave it in His hands.
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katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Thank God we are not in charge.Technically, Katiemygirl would be in more trouble if I was in charge of who is saved, and I would be in more trouble if Katiemygirl was in charge of who is saved, but since Jesus is in charge of who is saved, then she and I are both trusting in the same place.
Now I would probably be a terrible choice to host a baptism class at her church.
I'd probably give everyone a pass, but I might make the real bad ones suffer a little first. lolA change of subject here: I'm wondering how you might interpret this verse?
"Many are called but few are chosen."
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
What is the irresistable call by God based on? IOW, what would be the criteria for one person getting the call and another not? And what happens to those who don't get the irresistable call? I'd like your thoughts on this, not because I want to debate, but because I'd like to know what you think.Actually, we agree on this.
Some, like you, probably believe that God calls out to all people (which I sort of agree with, and sort of don't).
Some, like me, believe that God makes an irresistable call to some so that not all will be lost (which you probably disagree with).
Neither of us believe that God's arm is short.
Spockrates
Wonderer.
I would bet all I own, were I a betting woman
The question becomes "Why was Arthur baptized?" I would say he was baptized for the same reason I was. It was because his Lord commanded him to be. Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Jesus also said, "Why call Me Lord and not do as I say?" My guess is that Arthur made Jesus his Lord sometime back. He also loves the Lord as I do. So he obeyed.
Arthur may have had more reasons than what I wrote above. He can speak to those other reasons. I think he would agree with what I wrote in the previous paragraph.
Whether Arthur or I consider it necessary is beside the point. We were both baptized. As a matter of fact, I think all christians have been baptized, maybe not immersed, but have been baptized according to their own way of thinking.
Most important is that we can still be unified and in total fellowship with one another. You see, I don't believe that God ever expected us to agree on every detail, but He expects us to stay unified. Don't you agree?
For the record, I believe baptism is commanded in the Scriptures. How Jesus judges those who are never baptized is not my call, but His alone. Our God is a loving and merciful God. I leave it in His hands.
I find it intriguing we have devoted several days and created several pages of this discussion, yet we still are considering the full truth of Ephesians 2:8, which is quoted in the first post. There is still more truth to be learned from these seven words!
By grace you are saved, through faith.
When I ask myself, "Faith in what?" the answer that comes to mind is, "Faith in the true way to be saved." And it seems obvious to me, after speaking at length to you both that you and Atpollard have polar opposite beliefs on the role baptism plays in saving us. For I think (and I hope he will correct me if I'm wrong) Atpollard and other Calvinists say it is in no way a cause of salvation and you say it most definitely is.
But I think you might have a different idea in mind of what this saving faith is than I do. If so, please tell me: In what do you believe I must put my faith to be saved?
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Spockrates
Wonderer.
KatieMyGirl:
And you might say, "What does it matter since we both believe we should be baptized?"
I guess what I think the difference that matters between the two of you comes down to is this: You believe belief and obedience is what saves you and me. Calvinists believe belief only saves you and me. So if faith is trusting in the correct way to be saved, then I'm making the inference that one of you might have this saving faith, but not both of you. For you seem to me to be trusting in a different ways to be saved.
Do you think this is an accurate assessment, or have I misunderstood your beliefs, Atpollard's beliefs or faith itself?
And you might say, "What does it matter since we both believe we should be baptized?"
I guess what I think the difference that matters between the two of you comes down to is this: You believe belief and obedience is what saves you and me. Calvinists believe belief only saves you and me. So if faith is trusting in the correct way to be saved, then I'm making the inference that one of you might have this saving faith, but not both of you. For you seem to me to be trusting in a different ways to be saved.
Do you think this is an accurate assessment, or have I misunderstood your beliefs, Atpollard's beliefs or faith itself?
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katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Jesus Christ!
There is no doubt in my mind that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ!
I don't put my faith in baptism. I put my faith in Jesus Christ and in His teachings. BChristian baptism was instituted and commanded by Jesus. For me, that makes it necessary.
It's the purpose of baptism Arthur and I disagree on. My understanding of the Scriptures is that baptism is the time GOD has chosen to forgive and save me. It's not the how. I base that understanding on several verses. First, Jesus clearly said that if we are not born of water and of the Spirit, we can't enter the kingdom of heaven. Peter stated that repentance and baptism are for the forgiveness of sins. Paul called baptism a circumcision made without hands. He said we were made alive with Him having our sins forgiven.
Baptism is the WHEN we are forgiven, not the HOW.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
No, you are wrong! I believe exactly what the Bible says. We are saved by grace through faith.
What I don't believe, nor can I find anywhere in Scripture, is that we are saved by faith alone.
The question becomes what does THROUGH FAITH mean. Imho, repentance, confession, baptism, loving one another, and obedience is what "through faith" is. All of the above are our responses to faith, and that's what saving faith is.
Salvation is by grace, but we must reach out and accept the gift. We do that through faith.
But keep in mind, we can do nothing without HIM. It is because of His grace that we can do the things He has asked us to do.
What I believe and what Arthur believes the Scriptures teach is irrelevant. I don't think we will be judged according to what we believe. We will be judged according to our deeds.
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