women and the Bible

[lizzieg]

Hi there. I have a kind-of odd question for the Christian women on this forum...

My best friend, Ingrid, and I were discussing the issue of women in the Bible the other day, and we ended up with a question. We both grew up in a church environment that was very unfriendly to women, that treated us as inferior because we are female. Of course, that kind of teaching was caustic and damaging to us emotionally, and to every other woman involved in it. Both of us, as children and young adults, often heard women express feelings of shame and frustration with their "inferior" position.

As adults, we have both become more aware of women's issues and begun attending a church that is much more in line with mainstream Christianity. This church allows women in some leadership roles, and the women have a much more visible place in the worship. However, the women (and men too!) never discuss the issue of women in the Bible, either positively or negatively. At this more progressive church, it's as though women's issues don't even exist. There is no mention, either positively or negatively, of women in submission or authority, or Eve being the originator of sin for the world, or women being created as a "helpmate" for man.

Although Ingrid and I are relieved to be free of the blatently patriarichal system we grew up in, it has left us wondering -- how do mainstream Christian women really view themselves in light of the Bible? We both realize that we are carrying a lot of emotional baggage into our adult lives because of our pasts. But what about the average woman who wasn't raised in such a stifling environment? Do certain Bible verses make you feel inferior to men? Do you feel you need to be constantly justifying and explaining away certain Bible passages?

What I'm looking for here is not an exegesis of difficult Bible verses. And I'm not looking to rant against the Bible in any way. What we're asking is this: When we read a Bible verse and feel frustrated by its treatment of women, is that just our childhoods talking? Do lots of other women feel this way? If you were raised in an average Christian home, where women were not denegrated, do you still have trouble with some Bible passages? How do your sisters, mothers, or daughters feel about it?

I cannot emphasize enough how important it is for anyone who responds to me to be brutally honest. If this really is an issue solely rooted in our childhoods, then we need to deal with it in that way. If however, this is an issue that all adult Christian women deal with, then we need to approach it in a radically different way.

We would love some feedback. Thanks.

 

[Karl R]

What we're asking is this: When we read a Bible verse and feel frustrated by its treatment of women, is that just our childhoods talking? Do lots of other women feel this way? If you were raised in an average Christian home, where women were not denegrated, do you still have trouble with some Bible passages? How do your sisters, mothers, or daughters feel about it?

I haven't ever discussed these passages around my immediate family, but the topic has come up a couple time with close friends.

Your frustration seems normal. I think almost everyone has problems with those passages (with the exception of some chauvinists who use them to justify their attitudes).

I've always attended churches where women could have any leadership role (including the head pastor). In these circumstances, it's possible for a girl to reach adulthood without ever hearing one of those passages. By this point, they've been indocrinated in a culture that says men and women are equal (even if the culture occasionally fails to live up to this ideal).

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam originated in a culture where women were treated like property. All three were progressive in the way they treated women. I believe these religions were intended to start a trend to change the culture to become a culture of equality. Unfortunately, the cultural baggage got dragged along. Now some people try to take what were initially intended as progressive statements and use them to hold back continued progress toward equality.

That may be why mainstream churches ignore those verses. All churches have chauvinists, and church leaders may want to avoid giving them ammunition for their agenda.

Personally I'd rather see women have the knowledge and education as ammunition of their own.

 

[fromthe heart]

I had to laugh at your post but not in a bad way..it reminded me of how hearing it always made me wonder why women weren't as important as men in the scriptures. I've now been married for 36 years and I gotta tell you it comes down to more of how YOU see yourself. I'm a tough gal by those who know me and quite fiesty. I came to the understanding that women aren't second to men we are not to walk behind them OR in front of them but to walk beside them. It's ok to take direction in life from your husband if he is a biblical man...I think that is one of the reasons to pick your mate carefully. Rebellion against some of these things growing up can cause you to pick the wrong person just to make a point. You really don't lose your self worth by letting someone give you their input...You just have to remember if women weren't of value to God he would never have created one to begin with...He possibly had second thoughts when Eve did as she did but He's forgiving and we reap what we sow now so if we sow wisely we aren't as likely to resent taking a second position to a man if he is a godly man. If living biblically is important you will realize that women are of great importance...then and now. Just because more women aren't mentioned is because most of biblical accounts are of biblical leaders that strived to do God's will in most cases...but most of those strong men of biblical times had strong women as well. Taking second place is a mind set to see that as being somehow inferior...we aren't inferior; perhaps just in most cases we are the spine of our men...

 

[thenight_templer]

According To The Old Tastment The Women Positions Is Realy So Low And ,,,, But Cause U You Dont Work With Old Tastement And U Consider It Just Old Story The Situation Became Alittle Bit Easy ,
Althou We Can Not Forget What Jesus Said , He Came Not To Distroy But To Fulfill Which It Means U Have To Take And To Work With The Old Tasment , Any Way He Changed Some Stuff In The New Tastement And Now You Dont Need It All , Its Free World

 

[thenight_templer]

read for me
the easy forgivness
false christs strategies ,
the false phrohet
the philosophy of terrorism
hypothetical faith

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

I just think it took men a really really long time to get over that whole apple thing.

 

[thenight_templer]

this is how the christianty started and ended

 

[mr.guy]

I just think it took men a really really long time to get over that whole apple thing.

We're supposed to be over that? Still stings me from time to time.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

We're supposed to be over that? Still stings me from time to time.

Well, the way to a man's heart is through his stomach, and you guys get bored with the same old thing, and want us to spice things up from time to time.

 

[may]

The basic principle of headship is set out at 1 Corinthians 11:3: "The head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.................. Jesus did not get the glooms because he had a head , his head was his father Jehovah, and the head of a man is CHRIST, so if the man is listening to Jesus and following his example there should be no problems for the woman.

 

[sojourner]

The basic principle of headship is set out at 1 Corinthians 11:3: "The head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.................. Jesus did not get the glooms because he had a head , his head was his father Jehovah, and the head of a man is CHRIST, so if the man is listening to Jesus and following his example there should be no problems for the woman.

That basic principle is imbedded in a highly patriarchical culture -- a culture we don't live in here in 21st century America. It makes me sick to think that so many people keep women beat down in the name of "Christianity."

 

[flysky]

That basic principle is imbedded in a highly patriarchical culture -- a culture we don't live in here in 21st century America. It makes me sick to think that so many people keep women beat down in the name of "Christianity."

You got to check out this http://askmuslims.com/women.html

 

[sojourner]

You got to check out this http://askmuslims.com/women.html

Looks suspect to me. I know women who are Muslim, and women who lived in Muslim countries. Their experiences do not parallel the claims of that site.

Even if true, Isalmic social practices of today have almost certainly changed over the past 2000 years. We no longer live in the culture of the Biblical writers.

 

[nutshell]

If found this article written by an LDS apostle. I'm not sure what you'll think of it, but I like it.

Neal A. Maxwell, “The Women of God,” Ensign, May 1978, 10
We know so little, brothers and sisters, about the reasons for the division of duties between womanhood and manhood as well as between motherhood and priesthood. These were divinely determined in another time and another place. We are accustomed to focusing on the men of God because theirs is the priesthood and leadership line. But paralleling that authority line is a stream of righteous influence reflecting the remarkable women of God who have existed in all ages and dispensations, including our own. Greatness is not measured by coverage in column inches, either in newspapers or in the scriptures. The story of the women of God, therefore, is, for now, an untold drama within a drama.



We men know the women of God as wives, mothers, sisters, daughters, associates, and friends. You seem to tame us and to gentle us, and, yes, to teach us and to inspire us. For you, we have admiration as well as affection, because righteousness is not a matter of role, nor goodness a matter of gender. In the work of the Kingdom, men and women are not without each other, but do not envy each other, lest by reversals and renunciations of role we make a wasteland of both womanhood and manhood.



Just as certain men were foreordained from before the foundations of the world, so were certain women appointed to certain tasks. Divine design—not chance—brought Mary forward to be the mother of Jesus. The boy prophet, Joseph Smith, was blessed not only with a great father but also with a superb mother, Lucy Mack, who influenced a whole dispensation.



When we would measure loving loyalty in a human relationship, do we not speak of Ruth and Naomi even more than David and Jonathan? And no wonder God with His perfect regard for women is so insistent about our obligations to widows.



A widow with her mite taught us how to tithe. An impoverished and starving widow with her hungry son taught us how to share, as she gave her meal and oil to Elijah. The divine maternal instincts of an Egyptian woman retrieved Moses from the bullrushes, thereby shaping history and demonstrating how a baby is a blessing—not a burden.



What greater conversation of anticipation has there been than that of Elisabeth and Mary when also the babe in Elisabeth leaped in recognition of Mary? (Luke 1:41).



Does it not tell us much about the intrinsic intelligence of women to read of the crucifixion scene at Calvary, “And many women were there beholding afar off.” (Matt. 27:55.) Their presence was a prayer; their lingering was like a litany.



And who came first to the empty tomb of the risen Christ? Two women.



Who was the first mortal to see the resurrected Savior? Mary of Magdala. Special spiritual sensitivity keeps the women of God hoping long after many others have ceased.



The charity of good women is such that their “love makes no parade”; they are not glad “when others go wrong”; they are too busy serving to sit statusfully about, waiting to be offended. Like Mary, they ponder trustingly those puzzlements that disable others. God trusts women so much that He lets them bear and care for His spirit children.



In our modern kingdom, it is no accident that women were, through the Relief Society, assigned compassionate service. So often the service of women seems instinctive, while that of some men seems more labored. It is precisely because the daughters of Zion are so uncommon that the adversary will not leave them alone.



We salute you, sisters, for the joy that is yours as you rejoice in a baby’s first smile and as you listen with eager ear to a child’s first day at school which bespeaks a special selflessness. Women, more quickly than others, will understand the possible dangers when the word self is militantly placed before other words like fulfillment. You rock a sobbing child without wondering if today’s world is passing you by, because you know you hold tomorrow tightly in your arms.



So often our sisters comfort others when their own needs are greater than those being comforted. That quality is like the generosity of Jesus on the cross. Empathy during agony is a portion of divinity!



I thank the Father that His Only Begotten Son did not say in defiant protest at Calvary, “My body is my own!” I stand in admiration of women today who resist the fashion of abortion, by refusing to make the sacred womb a tomb!



When the real history of mankind is fully disclosed, will it feature the echoes of gunfire or the shaping sound of lullabies? The great armistices made by military men or the peacemaking of women in homes and in neighborhoods? Will what happened in cradles and kitchens prove to be more controlling than what happened in congresses? When the surf of the centuries has made the great pyramids so much sand, the everlasting family will still be standing, because it is a celestial institution, formed outside telestial time. The women of God know this.



No wonder the men of God support and sustain you sisters in your unique roles, for the act of deserting home in order to shape society is like thoughtlessly removing crucial fingers from an imperiled dike in order to teach people to swim.



We men love you for meeting inconsiderateness with consideration and selfishness with selflessness. We are touched by the eloquence of your example. We are deeply grateful for your enduring us as men when we are not at our best because—like God—you love us not only for what we are, but for what we have the power to become.



We have special admiration for the unsung but unsullied single women among whom are some of the noblest daughters of God. These sisters know that God loves them, individually and distinctly. They make wise career choices even though they cannot now have the most choice career. Though in their second estate they do not have their first desire, they still overcome the world. These sisters who cannot now enrich the institution of their own marriage so often enrich other institutions in society. They do not withhold their blessings simply because some blessings are now withheld from them. Their trust in God is like that of the wives who are childless, but not by choice, but who in the justice of God will receive special blessings one day.



I, along with my brethren of the priesthood, express undying gratitude to our eternal partners. We know that we can go no place that matters without you, nor would we have it otherwise. When we kneel to pray, we kneel together. When we kneel at the altar of the holy temple, we kneel together. When we approach the final gate where Jesus Himself is the gatekeeper, we will, if faithful, pass through that gate together.



The prophet who sits with us today could tell us of such togetherness, when at the time of his overwhelming apostolic calling he was consoled by his Camilla, who met his anguished, sobbing sense of inadequacy and, running her fingers through his hair, said, “You can do it, you can do it.” He surely has done it, but with her at his side.



Notice, brethren, how all the prophets treat their wives and honor women, and let us do likewise!



Finally, remember: When we return to our real home, it will be with the “mutual approbation” of those who reign in the “royal courts on high.” There we will find beauty such as mortal “eye hath not seen”; we will hear sounds of surpassing music which mortal “ear hath not heard.” Could such a regal homecoming be possible without the anticipatory arrangements of a Heavenly Mother?



Meanwhile, there are no separate paths back to that heavenly home. Just one straight and narrow way, at the end of which, though we arrive trailing tears, we shall at once be “drenched in joy.” I so testify in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

[nutshell]

Here's a talk by current LDS President and Prophet Gordon b. Hinkley from a 1996 conference"

Gordon B. Hinckley, “Women of the Church,” Ensign, Nov. 1996, 67
Half, possibly more than half, of the adult members of the Church are women. It is to them that I wish particularly to speak this morning. I do so with the hope that the men will also hear.



First let me say to you sisters that you do not hold a second place in our Father’s plan for the eternal happiness and well-being of His children. You are an absolutely essential part of that plan.



Without you the plan could not function. Without you the entire program would be frustrated. As I have said before from this pulpit, when the process of creation occurred, Jehovah, the Creator, under instruction from His Father, first divided the light from the darkness and then separated the land from the waters. There followed the creation of plant life, followed by the creation of animal life. Then came the creation of man, and culminating that act of divinity came the crowning act, the creation of woman.



Each of you is a daughter of God, endowed with a divine birthright. You need no defense of that position.



As I go about from place to place, I am interviewed by representatives of the media. Invariably they ask about the place of women in the Church. They do so in an almost accusatory tone, as if we denigrate and demean women. I invariably reply that I know of no other organization in all the world which affords women so many opportunities for development, for sociality, for the accomplishment of great good, for holding positions of leadership and responsibility.



I wish all of these reporters could have been in the Tabernacle a week ago Saturday when the general Relief Society meeting was held. It was an inspiration to look into the faces of that vast gathering of the daughters of God, women of faith and ability, women who know what life is about and have something of a sense of the divinity of their creation. I wish they could have heard that great chorus of young women from Brigham Young University, who touched our hearts with the beauty of their singing. I wish they could have heard the stirring messages of the Relief Society general presidency, each of whom spoke on a phase of the subject faith, hope, and charity.



What able people these women are. They express themselves with power and conviction and great persuasiveness. President Faust concluded that service with a wonderful talk.



If those reporters who are prone to raise this question could have sat in that vast congregation, they would have known, even without further inquiry, that there is strength and great capacity in the women of this Church. There is leadership and direction, a certain spirit of independence, and yet great satisfaction in being a part of this, the Lord’s kingdom, and of working hand in hand with the priesthood to move it forward.



Many of you are here today who were in that meeting. Today you are seated with your husbands, men whom you love and honor and respect, and who in turn love and honor and respect you. You know how fortunate you are to be married to a good man who is your companion in life and who will be your companion throughout eternity. Together, as you have served in many capacities and reared your families and provided for them, you have faced a variety of storms and come through them all with your heads held high. Most of you are mothers, and very many of you are grandmothers and even great-grandmothers. You have walked the sometimes painful, sometimes joyous path of parenthood. You have walked hand in hand with God in the great process of bringing children into the world that they might experience this estate along the road of immortality and eternal life. It has not been easy rearing a family. Most of you have had to sacrifice and skimp and labor night and day. As I think of you and your circumstances, I think of the words of Anne Campbell, who wrote as she looked upon her children:
You are the trip I did not take;
You are the pearls I cannot buy;
You are my blue Italian lake;
You are my piece of foreign sky.
(“To My Child,” quoted in Charles L. Wallis, ed., The Treasure Chest [1965], 54)



You sisters are the real builders of the nation wherever you live, for you have created homes of strength and peace and security. These become the very sinew of any nation.



Unfortunately a few of you may be married to men who are abusive. Some of them put on a fine face before the world during the day and come home in the evening, set aside their self-discipline, and on the slightest provocation fly into outbursts of anger.



No man who engages in such evil and unbecoming behavior is worthy of the priesthood of God. No man who so conducts himself is worthy of the privileges of the house of the Lord. I regret that there are some men undeserving of the love of their wives and children. There are children who fear their fathers, and wives who fear their husbands. If there be any such men within the hearing of my voice, as a servant of the Lord I rebuke you and call you to repentance. Discipline yourselves. Master your temper. Most of the things that make you angry are of very small consequence. And what a terrible price you are paying for your anger. Ask the Lord to forgive you. Ask your wife to forgive you. Apologize to your children.




continued in next post

 

[nutshell]

There are many women among us who are single. Generally, this is not of their own choice. Some have never had the opportunity to marry one with whom they would wish to spend eternity.



To you single women who wish to be married, I repeat what I recently said in a meeting for singles in this Tabernacle: “Do not give up hope. And do not give up trying. But do give up being obsessed with it. The chances are that if you forget about it and become anxiously engaged in other activities, the prospects will brighten immeasurably. …



“I believe that for most of us the best medicine for loneliness is work, service in behalf of others. I do not minimize your problems, but I do not hesitate to say that there are many others whose problems are more serious than are yours. Reach out to serve them, to help them, to encourage them. There are so many boys and girls who fail in school for want of a little personal attention and encouragement. There are so many elderly people who live in misery and loneliness and fear for whom a simple conversation would bring a measure of hope and happiness.”



Included among the women of the Church are those who have lost their husbands through abandonment, divorce, and death. Great is our obligation to you. As the scriptures declare, “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world” (James 1:27).



I received a letter from one who counts herself fortunate, and indeed fortunate she is. She writes:



“Although I have been raising our four boys as a single parent, … I am not alone. I have a wonderful ‘ward family’ that has rallied around us. …



“My Relief Society president has been there for me through my greatest hardships, encouraging my spiritual growth, personal prayer, and temple attendance.



“Our bishop has been generous in providing needed food and clothing and has helped send two of the boys to camp. He has had interviews with all of us and given each of us blessings and needed encouragement. He has helped me to budget and do what I can to help my family.



“Our home teachers have come regularly and even gave the boys blessings as they started the new school year.



“Our stake president and his counselors have checked in on us on a regular basis by taking time to visit with us at church, on the phone, or visiting our home.



“This Church is true, and my boys and I are living proof that God loves us and that a ‘ward family’ can make all the difference.



“Our priesthood leaders have been instrumental in keeping the boys active in church and in the Scouting program. [One] is an Eagle Scout and is receiving his fourth palm this week. [Another] is an Eagle with three palms. And [a third] has just turned in his Eagle papers this week. The youngest is a Webelos and loves Cub Scouts.



“We are always met with loving hearts and warm handshakes. The Christlike attitude of the stake and our ward has helped us through trials we never imagined possible.



“Life has been hard, … but we put on the whole armor of God as we kneel in family prayer … , asking for help and guidance and sharing thanks for the blessings we have received. I pray daily for the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost to guide me as I raise these boys to be missionaries and encourage them to be true to the gospel and the priesthood they hold.



“I am proud to say I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I know this Church is true. I sustain my Church leaders. We are doing well, and I thank everyone for their love, and prayers, and acceptance.”



What a great letter that is! How much it says about the way this Church functions and should function throughout the world. I hope that every woman who finds herself in the kind of circumstances in which this woman lives is similarly blessed with an understanding and helpful bishop, with a Relief Society president who knows how to assist her, with home teachers who know where their duty lies and how to fulfill it, and with a host of ward members who are helpful without being intrusive.



I have never met the woman whose letter I have read. Notwithstanding the cheerful attitude she conveys, I am sure there has been much of struggle and loneliness, and at times, fear. I notice that she works to provide for her needs and the needs of her boys, who are in their teens. I assume her income is inadequate, because she indicates that the bishop has helped them with food and clothing.



Some years ago President Benson delivered a message to the women of the Church. He encouraged them to leave their employment and give their individual time to their children. I sustain the position which he took.



Nevertheless, I recognize, as he recognized, that there are some women (it has become very many in fact) who have to work to provide for the needs of their families. To you I say, do the very best you can. I hope that if you are employed full-time you are doing it to ensure that basic needs are met and not simply to indulge a taste for an elaborate home, fancy cars, and other luxuries. The greatest job that any mother will ever do will be in nurturing, teaching, lifting, encouraging, and rearing her children in righteousness and truth. None other can adequately take her place.



It is well-nigh impossible to be a full-time homemaker and a full-time employee. I know how some of you struggle with decisions concerning this matter. I repeat, do the very best you can. You know your circumstances, and I know that you are deeply concerned for the welfare of your children. Each of you has a bishop who will counsel with you and assist you. If you feel you need to speak with an understanding woman, do not hesitate to get in touch with your Relief Society president.



To the mothers of this Church, every mother who is here today, I want to say that as the years pass, you will become increasingly grateful for that which you did in molding the lives of your children in the direction of righteousness and goodness, integrity and faith. That is most likely to happen if you can spend adequate time with them.



For you who are single parents, I say that many hands stand ready to help you. The Lord is not unmindful of you. Neither is His Church.



May He bless you, my beloved sisters who find yourselves in the situation of single parenthood. May you have health, strength, vitality to carry the heavy burden that is yours. May you have loving friends and associates to bear you up in your times of trial. You know the power of prayer as perhaps few others do. Many of you spend much time on your knees speaking with your Father in Heaven, with tears running down your cheeks. Please know that we also pray for you.



With all that you have to do, you are also asked to serve in the Church. Your bishop will not ask you to do anything that is beyond your capacity. And as you so serve, a new dimension will be added to your life. You will find new and stimulating associations. You will find friendship and sociality. You will grow in knowledge and understanding and wisdom, and in your capacity to do. You will become a better mother because of the service you give in the work of the Lord.



Now, in conclusion, I wish to say a word to you older women, many of whom are widows. You are a great treasure. You have passed through the storms of life. You have weathered the challenges now facing your younger sisters. You are mature in wisdom, in understanding, in compassion, in love and service.



There is a certain beauty that shines through your countenance. It is the beauty that comes of peace. There may still be struggle, but there is mature wisdom to meet it. There are health problems, but there is a certain composure concerning them. The bad memories of the past have largely been forgotten, while the good memories return and bring sweet and satisfying enrichment to life.



You have learned to love the scriptures, and you read them. Your prayers for the most part are prayers of thanksgiving. Your greetings are words of kindness. Your friendship is a sturdy staff on which others may lean.



What a resource are the women of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You love this Church, you accept its doctrine, you honor your place in its organization, you bring luster and strength and beauty to its congregations. How thankful we are to you. How much you are loved, respected, and honored.



I salute my own beloved companion. It will soon be 60 years that we walked from the Salt Lake Temple as husband and wife, with love for one another. That love has strengthened through all of these years. We have faced many problems during our years of marriage. Somehow, with the blessing of the Lord, we have survived them all.



It is becoming physically harder to stand tall and straight as we did in our younger years. No matter—we still have one another and we still stand together, even though we lean a little. And when the time for separation comes, there will be much of sorrow, but there will also be the comfort that will come from the assurance that she is mine and I am hers for the eternity that lies ahead.




continued on next post

 

[nutshell]

And so, my beloved sisters, please know how much we appreciate you. You bring a measure of wholeness to us. You have great strength. With dignity and tremendous ability, you carry forward the remarkable programs of the Relief Society, the Young Women, and the Primary. You teach Sunday School. We walk at your side as your companions and your brethren with respect and love, with honor and great admiration. It was the Lord who designated that men in His Church should hold the priesthood. It was He who has given you your capabilities to round out this great and marvelous organization, which is the Church and kingdom of God. I bear testimony before the entire world of your worth, of your grace and goodness, of your remarkable abilities and tremendous contributions, and invoke the blessings of heaven upon you, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, amen.