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Will Neo-Conservatism die with the Bush Administration?

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
I'm excited to see the top choices for the GOP are currently Giuliani and McCain. Neither of these two strike me as the typical Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney/Feith/Perle Neo-con mold. However, I'm not so optimistic to think that the neo-conservative movement is dead. :areyoucra What do you think?
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
I would hope people have figured out what a bankrupt model of gov't it is, but we shall see.
 

Gentoo

The Feisty Penguin
Would it be wrong of me to hope that the Neo-Conservatism will die with the Bush Administration?
 

xexon

Destroyer of Worlds
McCain, like Hillary is a closet neocon. He is no different than Bush on keeping strong "ties" with Israel. In other words, the zionists own him too.

Neocons span both major political parties. It is pure folly to think that voting for democratic candidates is going to change anything regarding foreign policy.

Neocons are not going away anymore than the zionists who whisper into their ears are.

At least not until after the war.

And no, I'm not talking about the Iraq war.



x
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
I think it will depend on how other political parties behave. For example, if voters are hearing Democrats or normal Conservatives saying stuff like "You guys suck and everyone that voted for Bush sucks and Cheney sucks and..." then I imagine a part of them will keep that in their memory and want to vote neo-con again as soon as possible.
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
I am curious to know what you folks would say neo-conservatism is before I offer my opinion. Are we all talking about the same thing?
 

xexon

Destroyer of Worlds
There are true conservatives (old school), who don't subscribe to the neocon theme.

Neocons have a very distinct philosophy behind them. They've been around for about 30 or so years and began their climb into power just after Nixon.

Jimmy Carter was the last president that didn't bow to them.


x
 

xexon

Destroyer of Worlds
And you see how he was set up because he didn't? He wouldn't bow to the zionists either, and they been tearing him apart ever since.

All the more so since his last book came out. He's approaching the end of his life, so he has nothing to lose now.



x
 
GeneCosta said:
I'm excited to see the top choices for the GOP are currently Giuliani and McCain. Neither of these two strike me as the typical Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney/Feith/Perle Neo-con mold. However, I'm not so optimistic to think that the neo-conservative movement is dead. :areyoucra What do you think?

McCain sold out to the neocons even though they stuck it to him when he ran against G.W.

Giuliani will do what he is told too.
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
comprehend said:
I am curious to know what you folks would say neo-conservatism is before I offer my opinion. Are we all talking about the same thing?

That's an extremely good thing to want clarified. (When I think of it, I'm not sure how to best articulate what I would define them as.)
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
xexon said:
McCain, like Hillary is a closet neocon. He is no different than Bush on keeping strong "ties" with Israel. In other words, the zionists own him too.

Neocons span both major political parties. It is pure folly to think that voting for democratic candidates is going to change anything regarding foreign policy.

Neocons are not going away anymore than the zionists who whisper into their ears are.

At least not until after the war.

And no, I'm not talking about the Iraq war.



x


so in your opinion. neo-con is a thinly veiled anti-semitic slur?
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
xexon said:
Neocons have a very distinct philosophy behind them.

yes, they do and so far it doesn't appear that you know what it is. Why do you think it has anything to do with Jews? Because there are Jews who are neo-cons? Would you mind if we talked about the neo-con philosophy rather than use the thread to slander Jews?
 

xexon

Destroyer of Worlds
I'm not slandering Jews, I'm harping on zionists, who happen to be jewish. I know the difference.



x
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
comprehend said:
so in your opinion. neo-con is a thinly veiled anti-semitic slur?

I think he thinks that they're 'zionists', which would make the neo-cons... erm... pro-semitic?

The more I look over it, I'm not sure how to describe Neo-Conservatism. It seems to mainly encompass the viewpoints of several political leaders, but I'm not sure where the viewpoint fits in with the voters or anything other than policy.
 

xexon

Destroyer of Worlds
comprehend said:
so in your opinion. neo-con is a thinly veiled anti-semitic slur?

To the contrary.

Neocon is a political idealogy in the same way zionism is a political ideology.

I have no trouble whatsoever with jews. Neocons and zionists make my skin crawl however.

Besides, do you know what a semite is? Most people don't sadly. It doesn't just pertain to jews, you know.


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Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Feathers in Hair said:
I think he thinks that they're 'zionists', which would make the neo-cons... erm... pro-semitic?

yes it would make the zionists pro, but it would make him anti-semetic. I was adressing his view not the zionists.

The more I look over it, I'm not sure how to describe Neo-Conservatism. It seems to mainly encompass the viewpoints of several political leaders, but I'm not sure where the viewpoint fits in with the voters or anything other than policy.

ok. here is a quick explanation but if you are not familiar with the writings it won't help much.

Plato's Republic is an argument/discussion searching for the true definition of Justice. In the book, Thrasymachus argues that Justice is "the advantage of the stronger" Plato argues against this.

There was a philosopher at the University of Chicago named Leo Strauss who believed that the book (the Republic) had been misunderstood and that Plato's point was to show that Justice really was the advantage of the stronger. It would help if you have read Strauss' writings. Included in Plato's argument was an argument against democracy and how poor of a government it is. Strauss believes that social democracy is good and that might makes right (justice is the advantage of the stronger).

Anyway, Irving Kristol was a student of his at the U of Chicago. He was probably the practical "father" of neo-conservatism. His son William Kristol is a major proponent today along with Fred Barnes, in the media.

So, If you are familiar with the arguments in the Republic and with Strauss' interpretation, you can see what the philosophy would entail. In case you aren't familiar, here is a very basic idea:

neo-con foreign policy is one of roll-back in the Allan Dulles style. Rather than simply contain our enemies (like George Kennen did) it is the neo-con position to actively work against our supposed enemies and this includes things like knocking down a country before they can attack us (pre-emptive war) to set up a democracy and turn them into a friend. This is the same foreign policy JFK had. It is very risky and very aggressive.

The neo-con domestic policy is one of social democracy. It is quite liberal (however Bush has a decidedly Christian twist to it). This is why we see things like expanded entitlements, prescription drug coverage, etc etc.

The bottom line is that the philosophy has nothing whatever to do with Jews and it is only anti-semitic people who continue to try to smear the Jews with this conspiracy theory. If somebody thinks that the Zionists or jews or whoever, is really running the government. Then lets see some reputable evidence. Not junk from your brother-in-laws conspiracy theory website, but rather some substantive evidence.

If anyone would actually like to get into a deeper discussion on what exactly the philosophy is, I will be happy to. I happen to be fairly educated in this area.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Feathers in Hair said:
I think it will depend on how other political parties behave. For example, if voters are hearing Democrats or normal Conservatives saying stuff like "You guys suck and everyone that voted for Bush sucks and Cheney sucks and..." then I imagine a part of them will keep that in their memory and want to vote neo-con again as soon as possible.

I agree with you. As soon as I hear a politician start attacking President Bush I completely shut them out. Not because I am a huge Bush fan, but because I hate that type of politics and it can be offending to the people who voted for him. Reminds my of when Kerry's wife said that everyone who doesn't agree with her is a moron (I paraphrased her statement - I don't remember the exact wording).

Bush isn't running for president, so I wish the candidates would quit attacking him. We have a chance to open a new chapter in American history. I'm looking for the person who is up for the challenges of the future...not the one who is dwelling in the rhetoric of the past.
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
neo-con foreign policy is one of roll-back in the Allan Dulles style. Rather than simply contain our enemies (like George Kennen did) it is the neo-con position to actively work against our supposed enemies and this includes things like knocking down a country before they can attack us (pre-emptive war) to set up a democracy and turn them into a friend. This is the same foreign policy JFK had. It is very risky and very aggressive.

If JFK was a neo-con, he was a pretty crappy one. Cuban Missle Crises, anyone? He actively opposed war with Cuba, despite the whispers surrounding him. And thank God! :eek:

If we're still on the subject of South-East Asia, I want to refer you to Ike and Truman. The policies of containment came way before Kennedy. :shrug:

neo-cons in domestic policy is one of social democracy. It is quite liberal (however Bush has a decidedly Christian twist to it).

I disagree completely with this assertment.

The most widely accepted definition of neo-cons are Democrats who turned away from the party in the 60s/70s after it went left on social and foreign policy issues.

Reagan is a perfect example. I would hardly call him a liberal.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
comprehend said:
I am curious to know what you folks would say neo-conservatism is before I offer my opinion. Are we all talking about the same thing?

I've been wondering the same thing. I get the idea that "neo-con" stands for everything that is bad in the world if you are liberal. Kinda like "liberal" stands for everything that is bad in the world if you are a conservative. When you get down to it, it is just immature name calling.
 
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