Will Mankind Survive?

[Unity of Mankind]

you are so typical of fundies

Fundies?

 

[Nimos]

I think I missed some of the things you wrote in the last post, so this is just answering them

What you say would be true if God was threatening to punish us, as some Christians seem to think the Bible is saying. It is all a matter of interpretation, and from what I know of the Bible, it is not about threats.

Its not only about at, and wont go through all verses as there are to many, so will just take an example:

This is from Deuteronomy 4 1;4

1. "Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers is giving you.
2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
3 Your eyes have seen what the Lord did at Baal Peor; for the Lord your God has destroyed from among you all the men who followed Baal of Peor.
4 But you who held fast to the Lord your God are alive today, every one of you.

So this is Moses speaking to the Jews and tells them to not change the law and to follow it (2). Then he tells them what happens to people God doesn't like. (3) And finally he tells them how they were rewarded for doing Gods will (4)

To me that is a treat and you will find this text structure all over the bible. 1. Do this and that 2. What happens if you don't 3. How good it will be for you if you do. Some will probably say that God is guiding them and so forth. But it doesn't change the fact that those people in this case, those that followed Baal, were not treated that good by God as he destroyed them.

I do not believe there is any eternal suffering for people unless they choose it for themselves. That might sound odd that people would choose that but some people do.

It depends how one interpret the bible, some teach their kids that people do suffer in hell and it not difficult to find people explaining how this affected them as children if you search around the internet. But as you say, some don't believe it, so in the end it depends on how you read the bible.

I do not think atheists go to hell just because they do not believe God exists. I think they can come to believe after they die, and if they lived a moral life and cared about other people they will just be surprised when they die and are not dead.

Its a friendly thought But again reading the bible I would say it suggests otherwise:

John 3; 16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

So what happens to those that don't believe him?

2 Corinthians 6:14-15
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?

Again doesn't really express a great love for non believers

And you can find verses like this all over the bible as well, it is a book about putting your trust in God and throw yourself at his feet, so it would be strange not to find verses about what happens to people that don't. Also remember that a lot of people that God commands to be destroyed are those of different religions, which most likely are to be understood in the same way as atheism. Both are non believers of God.

How would you do it if you were God?

I would reveal my self in the most extraordinary way possible, if my intention were to help humans and care for them, I would make this revelation a personal experience for each individual on the planet at the same time and have angels decent from "Heaven", have Jesus, Moses and all the other prophets gather for all humans to see and to help guide them towards a better life. I would restore all areas of Earth which were ruined by humans, It would be something so divine that you probably can't even imagine it.

One reason is because God does not want to convince you; God wants belief to be a free will choice based upon independent investigation of truth.

If God didn't want to convince me or others, why reveal himself to the Jews and "make" them write a book in the first place, it seems to have convince quite a lot of people?

Why does that seem weird? Would you want God to also try to convince you of other things in your life, such as convincing you how you should live?

Yes, I would have no issue with that, if the alternative is me having to spend an eternity of suffering and if Paradise is as wonderful as we are to believe, I would prefer that. I don't see what the issues is with being convinced? Science convinces us constantly about what is true and what is false, it doesn't seem to be all that harmful, it gives us medicin, computers, cars etc. Yet you don't see people demonstrating in massive numbers trying make them stop doing it.



.

 

[ecco]

Please show the specific prediction made about Napoleon and clearly show why many people did not share his views.

Excerpts from the Tablet to Napoleon III:

“Give ear, O King, unto the Voice that calleth from the Fire which burneth in this verdant Tree, on this Sinai which hath been raised above the hallowed and snow-white Spot, beyond the Everlasting City: ‘Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful!’ We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth. Arise thou to serve God and help His Cause. He, verily, will assist thee with the hosts of the seen and unseen, and will set thee king over all that whereon the sun riseth. Thy Lord, in truth, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty......

O King! The stars of the heaven of knowledge have fallen, they who seek to establish the truth of My Cause through the things they possess, and who make mention of God in My Name. And yet, when I came unto them in My glory, they turned aside. They, indeed, are of the fallen. This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow…....

For what thou hast done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought. Then wilt thou know how thou hast plainly erred. Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast by this firm Cord. We see abasement hastening after thee, whilst thou art of the heedless. It behoveth thee when thou hearest His Voice calling from the seat of glory to cast away all that thou possessest, and cry out: ‘Here am I, O Lord of all that is in heaven and all that is on earth!’
Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, pp. 18-20

That Tablet was written in 1869 when Napoleon was at the height of His glory. . In 1870, Napoleon III fell in battle:

In July 1870, Napoleon entered the Franco-Prussian War without allies and with inferior military forces. The French army was rapidly defeated and Napoleon III was captured at the Battle of Sedan.

Napoleon III - Wikipedia

I did not say that many people did not share his views. The only person to whom this Tablet was delivered was Napoleon III.

I do apologize for my unclear wording. I have seen and read the tablet before in a discussion with another Bahai. So I am aware of its general content. When I wrote: Please show the specific prediction made about Napoleon, I meant for you to take the excerpt and extract the specific portion(s) that elevate this writing to the level of a "prophesy".

A word about predictions...you are of the opinion that the writing to Napolean has a meaning greater than just an ordinary admonishment. You believe that the writing is based on some ability to foretell the future. Every day millions of people make "predictions". People predicted Donald Trump would win the 2016 election. People predicted Nyquist would win the Kentucky Derby. Nostradamus made hundreds of "predictions" including the attack of 9-11.

To be considered worthy of the elevated status a prophesy it must be specific and concise and it must be something that would not be discernable even to well-informed persons.

For example: "In the latter part of this year, there will be an airplane crash" doesn't qualify. "On a foggy morning in October, 2019 a Delta Airliner carrying 314 passengers and 9 crew will crash into the Allegheny Mountains", could be considered a prophesy.

The Baha'u'llah writing to Napolean does not seem to meet the criteria. So, please show what part of the "tablet" does meet the criteria.

Barring that we must see it as just: Accept Jesus and me or you are doomed.

 

[ecco]

Unity of Mankind said: ↑​

What can I say? What I see going on in the US alone is a stumbling from one crisis to another rather than people having a problem of being constrained by solutions available to them due to religion. What does religion have to do with an apparent corrupt Trump administration backed by most Republicans for fear what Trump might do to their chances of getting reelected? Partisan politics is shaking the US to its very foundation!​

Apparently they worked something out. Otherwise there would never have been a binding document known as the US Constitution by which the US Government claims to be operating according to.

So what is your point?

Let's keep my response in the context of what you wrote. You made the assertion that America: is a stumbling from one crisis to another rather than people having a problem of being constrained by solutions available to them due to religion.

My point is that that is not anything new. Also, not anything new is people hawking religion as the salvation to problems. It certainly has not alleviated any problems but, rather, has exacerbated them and added problems where there would not have been any.

If you are saying humans are prone to falling into disagreements which at times have involved violence and death I agree with you that has been very much mankind’s history. Why would that not also be true when it comes to religion? On a religious bases Catholicism resisted pioneers in scientific inquiry and even persecuted eminent ones like Galileo who as I recall discovered the earth revolved around the sun rather than the sun revolving around the earth. Then Islamic Civilization in Spain made great strides in the advancement of the sciences and established the university system of education. Without Mohammad can one even imagine there being an Islamic Civilization anywhere!

You seem to be saying that Christianity failed where Islam excelled. That's odd coming from someone who believes there is only one God of all religions. But, yes, if Mohammed didn't invent Islam there would not be an Islam.

From my Baha’i perspective true religion is in harmony with science. Of the two I would say religion is more important since science has been manipulated for the destruction of mankind rather than supporting its welfare.

So, science has been manipulated whereas religions remain pure. Seriously?

True religion motivates both mind and heart in positive ways whereas pure science has little or no sway in motivating the heart. Humans operate on both levels.

Reading the above, the word "nonsense" comes to mind.

What is "true religion"? Who has been motivated by "true religion"? If you cannot answer that, then your concept falls apart.

On the other hand, knowledge of the immensity of the universe affects both mind and heart in positive ways.

So do you think atheism is the true path forward?

As John Lennon explained in imagine, there would be one less reason to kill and die for.

The way Baha’u’llah authenticated Jesus Christ is what initially attracted me to further investigate the Baha’i Faith.

So, some guy who had the ability to write lots and lots of barely coherent tomes, authenticated Christ whereas the Gospels didn't. Hmm.

Only later did I connect Baha’u’llah’s Revelation, in other words His Writings, with an alternative to the madness the world has descended into.

What alternative? Seriously!

 

[ecco]

In reality, religions are the ‘light of the world’ and, according to Baha’u’llah’s teachings, the foundation of human culture.

Religious nonsense is religious nonsense. People are turning away from it when they see it for what it is.

What do you mean by religious nonsense? Do you mean it in the context of religion in general regardless of which one or in the context of the Baha’i Faith itself?

I wrote that in response to your "religions are the ‘light of the world’" comment. But, generally speaking, it pertains to what many people say about their religions and my general feeling about such comments.

Unless you truly investigated the Baha’i Faith itself your opinion of it is nothing more than prejudice.

As I, and others, have stated many times, it is not necessary to investigate all religions to understand that all religions are nonsense.

Did you thoroughly investigate Scientology or Islam or Hinduism before turning to Bahai?



You're over the age of thirty so you should know the definition. However, I'll be glad to refresh your memory...

prej·u·dice
/ˈprejədəs/

noun
1.
preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.​

Note the words "not based on reason or actual experience".

What leads you to assume that my views are "not based on reason or actual experience"? Or, perhaps, you just thought it would be OK to falsely label me as prejudiced.

 

[ecco]

I think the problem is materialistic values because that is what drives the demand for more than people need.
...
but clearly that was what Baha’u’llah taught that we need to do.

Yeah. Materialism is bad.

I guess even the religious dead have a need for majestic materialistic places to rest for eternity.

 

[ecco]

(my emphases in following)

I have been posting almost exclusively to atheists and agnostics for many hours a day on various forums for over five years. The biggest obstacle is that they do not consider a Messenger of God to be evidence that God exists. This is true of all nonbelievers and that is why they are nonbelievers. Some nonbelievers do not understand why God doesn’t communicate directly to everyone, and it does not help that I have a logical explanation for that, because they do not accept it since

they want God to do what they want God to do, which is illogical because an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do, not what people want Him to do.

Please show me a comment from any atheist that asserts that they want God to do what they want God to do. That is a really ridiculous comment.

 

[ecco]

The atheists who are willing to entertain the possibility that God uses Messengers always have a reason to find fault with Baha’u’llah or the religion itself.

What atheists are you referring to? Are there any on religiousforums.com who meet that description? I sure don't know of any.

I think the biggest problem is that most atheists were formerly Christians so they have confirmation bias, so they cannot see how a new religion could be any different from Christianity. I have pointed out how it is different but they just do not hear what I am saying.

Oh, we hear you. It's just we know that, at the core, all religions are pretty much the same. You and I have discussed this. It's not just similarity or Bahai to Christianity, but also to Islam, Hinduism, Scientology, et.al.

If they really wanted to know if God exists and if they looked at all the evidence without bias they might have a chance to believe it, but I do not know anyone who meets both those criteria.

Do you mean the evidence that all atheists have looked at over and over? The evidence that shows that gods are the creation of man's imaginings? The evidence that shows that all scripture is nothing more than the writings of mortal humans pushing an agenda? The evidence that shows there is no evidence for any god ever created by man's imaginings? Is that the evidence you are referring to?

 

[Trailblazer]

This is from Deuteronomy 4 1;4
So this is Moses speaking to the Jews and tells them to not change the law and to follow it (2). Then he tells them what happens to people God doesn't like. (3) And finally he tells them how they were rewarded for doing Gods will (4)

To me that is a treat and you will find this text structure all over the bible. 1. Do this and that 2. What happens if you don't 3. How good it will be for you if you do. Some will probably say that God is guiding them and so forth. But it doesn't change the fact that those people in this case, those that followed Baal, were not treated that good by God as he destroyed them.

First off, I do not necessarily believe that God destroyed people as it says in the Bible as I do not consider the Bible an accurate representation of history. On the other hand, if God did destroy people that was His prerogative because He is God so He has the power and He calls the shots.

There are passages in the Writings of Baha'u'llah that say that God is terrible at punishing, but I do not believe God punishes people just because they do not believe in Him. I could be wrong about that though because it is not clearly written anywhere. All we do know is that believers are rewarded, not specifically what happens to nonbelievers, although there are a few passages that seem to indicate the punishment nonbelievers will sustain will their own, not a punishment inflicted by God:

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

Its a friendly thought But again reading the bible I would say it suggests otherwise:

John 3; 16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

It is important to understand what eternal life actually is. I think that there is a lot of confusion among Christians as to what it means to have eternal life, but it is clearly explained in the Baha’i Writings.

All humans have a soul that continues to exist forever (is immortal) but that is not to be confused with eternal life, which is a state of the soul that is near to God, meaning that they know and love God. That knowing and loving comes from recognizing the Manifestations of God, and Jesus was one such so that is why believing in Jesus conferred eternal life. Now, in this new age (new religious dispensation), believing in Baha’u’llah confers eternal life.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225

Those people who do not recognize the Manifestations of God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

So what happens to those that don't believe him?

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil

The condemnation is rejecting Jesus, which equates to choosing darkness rather than light. We condemn ourselves to separation from God when we reject a Manifestation of God such as Jesus, and that is what hell is, separation from God.

2 Corinthians 6:14-15
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?

Again doesn't really express a great love for non believers

I will tell you right off the bat that I am not too fond of Paul. I believe that Paul changed the gospel message and the original Christianity of Jesus was derailed by Paul.

I started a thread last October: How Paul changed the course of Christianity

Here is an excerpt from that thread: “Measured by the standard of Baha’u’llah revelation, the Pauline doctrine of Justification, the doctrine of Original Sin, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, the sacramentalisation of the Christian religion, the whole Church plan of salvation — which not only contradicts the Jewish understanding of God (255) but was also strongly repudiated by the revelation of God which succeeded Christianity (256) — these are a deformation of Jesus’s teaching.”

And you can find verses like this all over the bible as well, it is a book about putting your trust in God and throw yourself at his feet, so it would be strange not to find verses about what happens to people that don't. Also remember that a lot of people that God commands to be destroyed are those of different religions, which most likely are to be understood in the same way as atheism. Both are non believers of God.

Of course, all religions teach that we are to put our trust in God, since that is the primary purpose of religion. I do put my trust in God but I do not throw myself at His feet. So are you saying that the Bible says that those who are from religions other than Judaism and Christianity are to be destroyed?

I would reveal my self in the most extraordinary way possible, if my intention were to help humans and care for them, I would make this revelation a personal experience for each individual on the planet at the same time and have angels decent from "Heaven", have Jesus, Moses and all the other prophets gather for all humans to see and to help guide them towards a better life. I would restore all areas of Earth which were ruined by humans, It would be something so divine that you probably can't even imagine it.

That sounds nice, but there are some problems with doing it that way, and the primary problem is that some people do not deserve to hear from God. The other problem is that God does not relate to humans directly, since there would be no way for us to understand God directly. That is why God uses Messengers who act as mediators between God and man. They are not just men, they are both divine and human, and that is why they can bridge the gap.

What you described about angels and the Prophets descending from heaven and restoring the Earth is what Christians believe Jesus will do when He returns and it sounds nice, but it is a fantasy. God has never done anything like that so there is no reason to believe God will suddenly change His modus operandi and do this. God’s Method since humankind has existed has been to send Messengers (Manifestations of God) who reveal scriptures that can be used by humans to fix their own problems. Even before the art of writing was developed God sent Messengers who established religions, but there is no way we can know about those religions because they are so remote in history.

If God didn't want to convince me or others, why reveal himself to the Jews and "make" them write a book in the first place, it seems to have convince quite a lot of people?

I am not going to say I believe that I believe what happened on Mt. Sinai, God revealing Himself to millions of Israelites. That might have happened but if it did it was a one shot deal. However, it was Moses who was actually responsible for the scriptures that were needed to guide the Jews, so that fits with the “Messenger” Method of communication.

I am not saying that God does not want you to be convinced, that is what scriptures are for. I am saying that God is not going to speak to you directly or reveal Himself in some fantastic way in order to and convince you.

Yes, I would have no issue with that, if the alternative is me having to spend an eternity of suffering and if Paradise is as wonderful as we are to believe, I would prefer that. I don't see what the issues is with being convinced? Science convinces us constantly about what is true and what is false, it doesn't seem to be all that harmful, it gives us medicine, computers, cars etc. Yet you don't see people demonstrating in massive numbers trying make them stop doing it.

Science does not convince scientists; they have to do something in order to be convinced. Science does not convince people who benefit from what scientists discover; they have to read and be convinced. It is no different with religion. If people want to be convinced that God exists they have to do the research, and the scriptures is what they have to research. One reason God does not want to convince people is because that would take away their right to choose. You cannot assume everyone wants to believe in God but even if they did they have to do something to be worthy of that belief. That is another reason God does not reveal Himself to everyone. If God did that, some of the “everyone” would be unworthy.

Everything worthwhile that we get in this life is based upon our own efforts. Why should belief in God be any different?

 

[Trailblazer]

I do apologize for my unclear wording. I have seen and read the tablet before in a discussion with another Bahai. So I am aware of its general content. When I wrote: Please show the specific prediction made about Napoleon, I meant for you to take the excerpt and extract the specific portion(s) that elevate this writing to the level of a "prophesy".

We have been down this road before and I said that these Tablets to the kings and rulers were not written with the intention of making predictions that would serve to prove that Baha’u’llah was a Prophet. Rather, they were warnings and because these warnings were not heeded, what Baha’u’llah predicted came to pass.

That said, here is the prediction that Baha’u’llah made that came true:

“Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast by this firm Cord.” Proclamation of Baha'u'llah

A word about predictions...you are of the opinion that the writing to Napolean has a meaning greater than just an ordinary admonishment. You believe that the writing is based on some ability to foretell the future.

Of course Baha’u’llah had the ability to foretell the future, He was a Manifestation of God and they all have special powers. But that is not what should be used to determine who He was.

Every day millions of people make "predictions". People predicted Donald Trump would win the 2016 election. People predicted Nyquist would win the Kentucky Derby. Nostradamus made hundreds of "predictions" including the attack of 9-11.

I never said that the predictions that Baha’u’llah made prove He was a Prophet/Messenger of God. In fact, some time ago, I told you what Baha’u’llah considered evidence of His claim.

To be considered worthy of the elevated status a prophesy it must be specific and concise and it must be something that would not be discernable even to well-informed persons.

But Baha’u’llah was not making predictions to prove He was a Prophet; it is YOU who is trying to use those predictions for that, but that is not what they were intended for.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah. Materialism is bad.

The holy shrines and the grounds at the World Centre are not materialism because they are not “a demand for more than people need.” They are what was warranted for a Faith as stupendous as the Baha’i Faith and now that they are built, they will stand for... well, however long buildings last.

I guess even the religious dead have a need for majestic materialistic places to rest for eternity.

Yeah, when those dead were Manifestations of God who ushered in a whole new religious cycle that will last no less than 500,000 years, they get better accommodations.

Next....

 

[Trailblazer]

Please show me a comment from any atheist that asserts that they want God to do what they want God to do. That is a really ridiculous comment.

They are plastered all over the forums, and can be seen whenever an atheist complains about God using Messengers to communicate and says that God should communicate differently, preferably directly to them. That is wanting God to do what they want God to do. All evidence indicates that God does not communicate any way other than Messengers, if God exists and communicates, so God is not doing what they want God to do.

Some of the atheists might not care what God does, and some atheists might not be wanting God to do anything, and some might just be hoping God will do something differently, but I can find plenty who are wanting. I have been listening to them for five years, day in day out. I feel like I work in the complaint department at customer service.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: The atheists who are willing to entertain the possibility that God uses Messengers always have a reason to find fault with Baha’u’llah or the religion itself.

What atheists are you referring to? Are there any on religiousforums.com who meet that description? I sure don't know of any.

I guess you do not read on many threads. They are all over the place. Of course, most atheists do not entertain the possibility that God uses Messengers, but the ones that do always have a reason to find fault with Baha’u’llah or the religion itself. You are a case in point.

Trailblazer said: I think the biggest problem is that most atheists were formerly Christians so they have confirmation bias, so they cannot see how a new religion could be any different from Christianity. I have pointed out how it is different but they just do not hear what I am saying.

Oh, we hear you. It's just we know that, at the core, all religions are pretty much the same. You and I have discussed this. It's not just similarity or Bahai to Christianity, but also to Islam, Hinduism, Scientology, et.al.

So you just did what you said no atheists on RF do... you found fault with Baha’u’llah or the religion itself.

Indeed, at their core all religions are the same, because they all come from the same God. But Scientology is not a religion because it does not come from God. It does not even claim to come from God.

Trailblazer said: If they really wanted to know if God exists and if they looked at all the evidence without bias they might have a chance to believe it, but I do not know anyone who meets both those criteria.

Do you mean the evidence that all atheists have looked at over and over? The evidence that shows that gods are the creation of man's imaginings? The evidence that shows that all scripture is nothing more than the writings of mortal humans pushing an agenda? The evidence that shows there is no evidence for any god ever created by man's imaginings? Is that the evidence you are referring to?

The evidence I am referring to is the evidence that you and other atheists do not consider evidence for God’s existence, Messengers of God and their scriptures, that which is the ONLY evidence for God’s existence, other than Creation.

For whatever reason you just cannot see it for what it obviously is.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah. Materialism is bad.

I guess even the religious dead have a need for majestic materialistic places to rest for eternity.

There are so many pilgrims from all Nations that these places are now quite small. Just imagine the future. The 9 day pilgrim intake is now over 300 each time and that accounts for a small number that come to these places. For a Baha'i there is no material intent, in fact it was Baha'i donations that built all these places.

As for the Shrine of the Bab, it is one of the places forerold in the Bible;

Isaiah 2:2 "In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it."

I would say the other place will be the Bahai House of Worship also to be in Haifa on Mt Carmel, but is yet to be built.

Regards Tony

 

[Nimos]

First off, I do not necessarily believe that God destroyed people as it says in the Bible as I do not consider the Bible an accurate representation of history. On the other hand, if God did destroy people that was His prerogative because He is God so He has the power and He calls the shots.

I don't believe God did it either, but the bible is filled with these stories, so whether they are meant to be actual accounts of historical events or not, I think is less important.

First of all, due to the message of these stories. Which is that God chose the Jews as his special people and they try to illustrate to others how this is the case, but showing or telling stories of how he saved them and help them destroy and cleanse those that opposes him and the Jews from the Earth. So if all these accounts are simply stories made up by the Jews (there are a lot of them in the bible,) It still shows us how they view and thought how others ought to think about their God. Remember this was a God made for the Jews and not anyone else, that is something that is added later. God in the OT do really not care about anyone else, especially not those standing in the way of the Jews. So as I see it, basically one would have to say that the Jews experience or understanding of God and writing all these stories are so wrong about what God is, that if we are to believe Christians, that don't look at these stories as accurately describing God, that we might as well dismiss the whole OT, because there is no way for us to validate or understand God based on it. People simply cherry pick the stories that the like and remove those that shows him as being wicked towards other people than the Jews.

To me that is simply not fair towards the Jews, the bible or even God. Its people (as usual) personalizing God to what they want him to be, with no respect to the actual scriptures. I can't remember if it were you I told, that even though im an atheist, that I would still defend the bible, if people are misusing it and saying it says things that it clearly doesn't or claim that it doesn't say certain things even though it can be found in the bible. That is my respect for it as a collection of books, simply because so many people care little about what it actually says, but simply make up things to fit their own world view.

So why would the Jews or even God allow them to fill the bible with stories that paint God as an ethnic cleanser, which clearly favors the Jews, if that were wrong? Remember in the OT God talks a lot with the Jews, so that would also mean that either this is not true either, which makes its completely impossible to understand God. Other option is that God do not care what the Jews write about him or last that these is actual descriptions of God.

On the other hand, if God did destroy people that was His prerogative because He is God so He has the power and He calls the shots.

Yes and show that he clearly does not care about all people, except the Jews which would support the claim that this religion were invented for them originally and not everyone else. Because from an ancient Jews point of view, God is with them!! its their God!!. No difference than Thor, Odin were the God of the vikings, that helped them and not anyone else.

It is important to understand what eternal life actually is. I think that there is a lot of confusion among Christians as to what it means to have eternal life, but it is clearly explained in the Baha’i Writings.

People have different opinions of what it means to have eternal life, but I don't know if there is that huge an amount of confusion about it? You are simply promoting another view of what is meant with eternal life, which is fair enough, but I don't think its proofs or make Christians view worse than yours, its simply different.

The condemnation is rejecting Jesus, which equates to choosing darkness rather than light. We condemn ourselves to separation from God when we reject a Manifestation of God such as Jesus, and that is what hell is, separation from God.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil

Again its very common in the bible, that whoever rejects Jesus or God is wrong and are not part of those that are welcome in heaven. Its common for people to say that we have to freely choose God and come to him and then they quote some passage. Yet they ignore all the others passages which clearly say, that either you acknowledge God's authority and hold his law or you will pay the price. If you read the OT, God is not afraid to let people know that he is in charge. Sentences like "I am you Lord", "I am your God" are so many that you would think that either the Jews back then had an extremely short memory span or God is very keen on promoting himself and really enjoy telling people how he is in charge. The bible is filled with example of God killing people, even Jews that doesn't do what he says.

Numbers 15
32 When the Israelites were in the desert, they found a man gathering wood on the Sabbath day.
33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses, Aaron, and the entire community.
34 They placed him in custody, because it wasn't clear what should be done to him.
35 Then the LORD said to Moses: The man should be put to death. The entire community should stone him outside the camp.
36 The entire community took him outside the camp and stoned him. He died as the LORD had commanded Moses.

So a story like this is for the most part ignored. When people talk about how good and just God is. Because they either haven't read the bible or because their knowledge of it, comes from preachers that focuses and teaches people how good God is rarely mentioned these things. But this story as countless of others, shows you the nature of God, you either do as he have told you or you will suffer the consequences. So all that talk about free will is utter nonsense, you have free will, because God commanded you to have it.

Now if God choose to treat Jews like this, what makes you think he would treat a non believer any better?

I will tell you right off the bat that I am not too fond of Paul. I believe that Paul changed the gospel message and the original Christianity of Jesus was derailed by Paul.

I would agree with that, Paul changes the words of Jesus and God to make it fit for all people. And to me people seem to believe more in him than Jesus and God which are basically just there to fill the gaps. I can understand them, because what Paul says is not as rough, but yet, he is a self proclaimed apostle, who have never met Jesus and with a story of him meeting him that can't be verified.
So I think he is committed, but that he were desperately trying to spread the word to the none believers, that he was willing to change the teachings to fit these needs.

So are you saying that the Bible says that those who are from religions other than Judaism and Christianity are to be destroyed?

Christianity didn't exist before Jesus, so according to the OT, I would say that God have very little respect for other religions and often refer to them as having false Gods. He especially hate Baal and want that destroyed. The first commandment is that you can have no other Gods, if that is the case, then all other religions are clearly not to be followed. Which is not surprising, so nothing wrong with that.

God’s Method since humankind has existed has been to send Messengers (Manifestations of God) who reveal scriptures that can be used by humans to fix their own problems. Even before the art of writing was developed God sent Messengers who established religions, but there is no way we can know about those religions because they are so remote in history.

You asked me how I would do it, if I were God As I clearly think God is doing it in a stupid way.

One reason God does not want to convince people is because that would take away their right to choose.

How is God revealing himself different than presenting evidence? If God is as he is, then that is a reasonable way for him to present himself, don't see anything wrong with that. He doesn't have to hide behind messengers etc. He is the freaking creator!!

 

[ecco]

Rather, they were warnings and because these warnings were not heeded, what Baha’u’llah predicted came to pass.

That said, here is the prediction that Baha’u’llah made that came true:

“Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast by this firm Cord.” Proclamation of Baha'u'llah

Only a Bahai apologist would consider this to be a prediction that came to pass. It is nothing more than: Believe in Gods the way I believe in Gods, or you will lose everything.

Would any person on the level of a Napoleon be impressed by this? No. Would you be impressed if a Scientologist knocked on your door and said join us or you will get cancer? Would you join Scientology? What if, a year later, you got cancer. Would you then believe you made a mistake, or would you believe it was just a coincidence?

Nevertheless, I have to ask, how do we know this was actually written when Bahai's say it was written? How do we know it wasn't written after Nappy's defeat?

 

[ecco]

Of course Baha’u’llah had the ability to foretell the future, He was a Manifestation of God and they all have special powers. But that is not what should be used to determine who He was.

But, in the Napolean example, he really did not make a prediction. There was no specificity. Bill Maher predicted Trump would win the 2016 election. Did God give him special powers? Is he a Manifestation of God

I never said that the predictions that Baha’u’llah made prove He was a Prophet/Messenger of God. In fact, some time ago, I told you what Baha’u’llah considered evidence of His claim.

A Bahai, several months ago, stated one of the reasons he believed Baha’u’llah was a true Messenger were the predictions.

But Baha’u’llah was not making predictions to prove He was a Prophet; it is YOU who is trying to use those predictions for that, but that is not what they were intended for.

See above. I am just showing that the predictions are not worthy of being called predictions because they are far too vague. I also question when they were made.

 

[ecco]

The holy shrines and the grounds at the World Centre are not materialism because they are not “a demand for more than people need.” They are what was warranted for a Faith as stupendous as the Baha’i Faith and now that they are built, they will stand for... well, however long buildings last.

So Bahais need the World Center. For what? To Glorify Ballula? Yeah, that's a good reason to pretend materialism is not materialism.

Yeah, when those dead were Manifestations of God who ushered in a whole new religious cycle that will last no less than 500,000 years, they get better accommodations.

No less than 500,000 years? I'm quite certain a Bahai said it's 1000 years between Manifestations (more or less).

On the other hand, when asked about The Bab and Ballula, Bahais make up a story that The Bab was just around to introduce Ballula: Ladies and Gentlemen and Children around the world - let me present the Next Great thing in Religion - a Real Messenger. Who am I? I am The Bab. I was supposed to be the Next Messenger. I even started a New Religion (well a modification of Islam). But I got my butt dumped in jail, so let's hear it for Ballula (or however he spells his name)!

 

[ecco]

Please show me a comment from any atheist that asserts that they want God to do what they want God to do. That is a really ridiculous comment.

They are plastered all over the forums, and can be seen whenever an atheist complains about God using Messengers to communicate and says that God should communicate differently, preferably directly to them.

If they are "plastered all over the forums" it should be easy to show just one to support your allegation.

 

[ecco]

Some of the atheists might not care what God does, and some atheists might not be wanting God to do anything, and some might just be hoping God will do something differently, but I can find plenty who are wanting.

Please show comments from actual atheists that support your silly notion.

I have been listening to them for five years, day in day out. I feel like I work in the complaint department at customer service.

Unless you can support your allegations with actual proofs, then it is clear that you, like many theists, just make up stuff about atheists. God only knows why*.


*Sarcasm