Will Mankind Survive?

[dianaiad]

Yeah... I'm not sure evolution designed rainforests to burn. Do certain seeds in the amazon only grow if there is ash like in north america? Probably not right

...and JUST how many of the current Amazon fires were deliberately set by people?

I'm not attempting to downplay the tragedy of burned rainforest. I'm SAYING that it isn't the end of our ability to breathe.

Again, a volcanic eruption or two far out CO2 production than the lack of the rainforest will. It's the way the planet works.

I'm NOT saying that losing the rainforest isn't a bad thing. It very much is. I AM saying that losing as much as we have isn't going to be the end of the planet...or even the end of the human race.

Shoot. We made it through the black plague...three times. We made it through 'the population bottleneck.' We made it through a lot of things. Yellowstone survived the great fire.

And the Amazon will make it through this. What we NEED to do is stand ready to see it reforested, NOT to run around like kids in a carnival scaring ourselves silly.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What we NEED to do is stand ready to see it reforested, NOT to run around like kids in a carnival scaring ourselves silly.

How can WE do this, when humanity does not yet see that it is WE, as a united whole, that does have to act?


Regards Tony

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I'm NOT saying that losing the rainforest isn't a bad thing. It very much is. I AM saying that losing as much as we have isn't going to be the end of the planet...or even the end of the human race.

I think kind of comes back to a question of faith in that idea. I don't believe that we are impervious to failing in our relationship with nature, on the contrary my thinking is that nature might be sacred if anything is, and it may not forgive us if we sin against it. I know that the whole history of western thought is to deny that. But as we speak, there may be medicines that could have been synthesized out of amazonian plants that nature will not simply generate for us again, and some of these might be going extinct. As I type this. All because we refused to consider it to be sacred all these years.

 

[dianaiad]

How can WE do this, when humanity does not yet see that it is WE, as a united whole, that does have to act?


Regards Tony

You have a point.

However, the world seems to think that 'we' means the US...since everybody seems to be blaming the US for fires we didn't set..and pretty much everything else as well...so I guess 'we,' meaning the US, will have to reforest it. Which will get 'us' in trouble.

Typical.

 

[dianaiad]

I think kind of comes back to a question of faith in that idea. I don't believe that we are impervious to failing in our relationship with nature, on the contrary my thinking is that nature might be sacred if anything is, and it may not forgive us if we sin against it. I know that the whole history of western thought is to deny that. But as we speak, there may be medicines that could have been synthesized out of amazonian plants that nature will not simply generate for us again, and some of these might be going extinct. As I type this. All because we refused to consider it to be sacred all these years.

Perhaps. We will never know.

However, consider this: 99;9% of all the lifeforms that have ever existed on the planet have gone extinct. WE will probably never know much about most of those, either.

Our job isn't to agonize over the loss. Our job is to protect those that are left.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Our job is to protect those that are left.

I like this and on the other hand, humanity as a whole, how do we find a way to protect life, here and now?

Personally I see the answers have been provided. Some were mentioned earlier on in this thread.

Regards Tony

 

[Unity of Mankind]

In regard to the misuse of science you wrote the following:

Im not mute about that I just didn't find it relevant. And the reason for that is that science is a method, which can be used for both good and bad things. It doesn't make science anything. How human uses science to do harm to others have nothing to do with it. Science explore the natural world, so if there is possibility to destroy using it, we will figure out how to exploit it, at some point. But you make it sound like science is to blame?

I do think it relevant but not because I blame science when it is used for bad things. I agree you can say science is a method for exploring the natural world but science does not determine whether or not humans have a noble or ignoble character.

Here I would assert only God through Prophets have historically exerted the requisite power to bring out the noble side of human nature but only for a given length of time until a renewal of religion must take place through the appearance of more Prophets as determined by God.

Briefly I will mention what I have recently heard from mainstream news media in the US, as a result of investigative journalism, that the Trump Administration came up with a scheme to force as many scientists as they can out of government service in order to fulfill the President’s political agenda. A new series on TV I have begun to watch is entitled “The American Swamp.” I have only viewed the first installment of the series. The point I would make in bringing this up is my firm conviction that the current political system in the US is horrifically struggling, and sometimes failing, because of the ignoble nature of humans and I have no doubt such a cancerous problem probably exists elsewhere on our planet.

Their are no easy solution, but waiting for a deity to come fix it, is probably the worse solution, because if we convince ourselves that one will come, then it give people an excuse to not really take it all that serious, because that deity will fix it before it ruins us right?

Wrong! It is nonsensical to imagine a real deity in terms of coming and going. Only Prophets come and go as a process, one which a real Deity determines. If you refuse to consider such a possibility perhaps your bias gets in your way?

I have no clue how things is going to be fixed, I honestly think it is going to collapse slowly and painful first, before things might change. So as enough have collapsed or nature is not going to accept it anymore, then changes might come, but it will cost a lot of lives both humans and animals a like.

In other words if solutions are to come forth from man it will occur naturally with no help from a real Deity? Dream on with that!

The current variety of cultures and governmental structures all over the world are presently proving to be bankrupt and utterly impotent to constructively work towards any realistic solutions to problems plaguing the human race. Before progress can even conceivably take place some kind of effective unity would not only have to occur in all the nations of the world but world unity among all nations would also have to take place! So do you presently see any positive signs of unity anywhere in the world taking place? Every time I view what news from mainstream media I can gather of what is going on in the world I mostly see ominous signs of imminent collapse! What do you see?

 

[Nimos]

I do think it relevant but not because I blame science when it is used for bad things. I agree you can say science is a method for exploring the natural world but science does not determine whether or not humans have a noble or ignoble character.

Science is not especially or directly trying to determine how humans ought to behave. I do however think that it does it, as it can help get rid of some of the superstitions and misunderstandings that exists in the world. People have a lot of opinions about pretty much everything and for the most part this is based on guesses or what people want to believe.

For instance when some religions is against abortions, then such argumentation is often based on religious scriptures rather than a rational discussion about a topic that is not especially straight forward to get to an agreement about. But the moment such discussion could be had and someone say that it ought to be illegal because that is how they interpret their scriptures, then there can no longer be a rational discussion. Because then its no longer about finding the best solution for all people involved, but rather a rule that someone think ought to be pull over someone else head, due to their religious conviction, which is not up for debate.

But science is not about telling us what is morally right and neither is religion as neither of them have anything to do with morality. The only thing that ought to be taken into account when talking about such issues is that we as humans can defined what we think good and bad morality is and after that we can have a rational debate about it.

Here I would assert only God through Prophets have historically exerted the requisite power to bring out the noble side of human nature but only for a given length of time until a renewal of religion must take place through the appearance of more Prophets as determined by God.

The problem is that your prophets have no solutions, they have a lot of words about how we ought to treat each other and come together as one. But you don't have to be a prophet to figure that one out, its pretty obvious, at least to most people, that this would be a good thing. But how we are going to achieve it is the hard part. Religions yelling for God is just not a solution, they have done that for thousands of years and little have it helped and they haven't come up with any solutions. I remember talking with a JWs about this as well and she claimed the same, that it is only through the rule of God that things will ever be good. But to me that is a cowards way out if you ask me, its nothing other than a way for people to throw their hands in the air and not take responsibility and sit back and hope something will come sort things out. You have waited thousands of years now and yet there have been no signs or any improvement that come close to being considered divine. The only improvement to human lives is what WE have done ourselves by constantly improving educations, fields of studies etc.. And it is a slow progress, no doubt about it, but at least we try. God have done absolutely nothing that we can point at and say "Thank God for that".

The point I would make in bringing this up is my firm conviction that the current political system in the US is horrifically struggling, and sometimes failing, because of the ignoble nature of humans and I have no doubt such a cancerous problem probably exists elsewhere on our planet.

How on Earth can that come as a surprise? The US voted for a complete idiot to be their president of course things are screwed up. The man is an incompetent businessman which have been part of running several companies into the ground, while blaming others for it. He have no political experience and is probably suffering from some psychological issues. And the US citizens is caught in a fear for any change that is considered even remotely humane, as the moment anyone even suggest some sort of political solidarity changes, those that disagree just mention the word communism and socialism, knowing that people have been brainwashed to fear it, even though hardly anyone (from what I have seen) even know what it is or completely misunderstand it. So obviously a person like Trump can become president, but there is really no one else to blame than those that voted for him. They want things to improve, a good start would be to vote for changes to policies that increases equality and stop giving those with lots of money more and more and obviously stop voting people like Trump as their president.

I wouldn't be surprised if the US continues as they are now, that they are going to fall behind pretty much all other major country (including EU) in the world within a fairly short amount of time.

Wrong! It is nonsensical to imagine a real deity in terms of coming and going. Only Prophets come and go as a process, one which a real Deity determines. If you refuse to consider such a possibility perhaps your bias gets in your way?

Again, neither the prophets or God have offered any solution. Me and a lot of others are not convinced that neither the God you believe in exists or that the prophets are who they claim and again, none of them have offered any solutions, so regardless of them being who they are or not, there is nothing to work with.

In other words if solutions are to come forth from man it will occur naturally with no help from a real Deity? Dream on with that!

Mention one solution to a problem that came from God or a prophet, that weren't caused by their own belief in the first place?

The current variety of cultures and governmental structures all over the world are presently proving to be bankrupt and utterly impotent to constructively work towards any realistic solutions to problems plaguing the human race.

So according to Baha'u'llah how are we going to solve world hunger? Economic inequality in the world? wars over resources? religious conflicts? Dictatorship and corrupt governments? How do we solve the global warming issue? illegal drugs?

So lets try to be a little bit more specific? Based on his writings, what solutions does he as a prophet and messenger of God, put forward as solutions to these things, what advise did God give him to these things?

 

[Unity of Mankind]

All a prophet is, in my view, is someone who contemplates a lot of things and is good at creative writing. People could see into the future who simply thought about where things were heading enough.

Jesus Christ is not known to have written anything down Himself, except possibly in the sand, yet the religion He founded is responsible for the word “Creator” to appear in the US Constitution, among other amazing results in large portions of the world. However, others wrote down a record of His life and Teachings which lasted for centuries and even now survives.

Mohammad was known to be illiterate so what He dictated to be written down on whatever material was available resulted in the Koran. I would argue solely due to Mohammad Islamic Civilization appeared in Moorish Spain and its influence on Christian Europe was profound in that it brought to an end the Dark Ages whereupon the Renaissance arose. It established the university system of education and through it great strides were made in both science and medicine.

In my view the connection between what Prophets bring and civilization is clear. In these modern times the reason what civilization remains in the world is either under threat or breaking down is because its underpinnings, the God-sent Revelations of the past have basically been discarded, disbelieved, and most importantly, their renewal through Baha’u’llah, gone unrecognized. Despite prophecies in all the great religions of the past pointing directly to their fruition in the Baha’i Faith it has largely gone unrecognized.

 

[Unity of Mankind]

So lets try to be a little bit more specific? Based on his writings, what solutions does he as a prophet and messenger of God, put forward as solutions to these things, what advise did God give him to these things?

For one thing that the nations of the world should only have enough armaments to secure order within their own boarders and that if any nation should rise up against another its government should be crushed by an international peace keeping force. Further more, that all nations should belong to an international peace keeping community or government for collective security, and that it alone would have the requisite armaments to enforce its adjudications. This arrangement is referred to as the principle of "collective security." So all of what I have just written is put in my own words and for verification Baha'u'llah's actual Writings should be referred to.

If I may, I would like to insert here that I think US President Wilson historically, I think shortly before WWI, came up with the proposal of the League of Nations to establish peace among nations was, I suspect, due to the fact of having a relative who was a Baha'i. Unfortunately, the League was too weak to enforce any of its decisions as a result of its deliberations. Later the formation of the United Nations came about but due to its divisive political make up it too lacks the requisite elements to be an effective peace keeping force as outlined by Baha'u'llah.

Lastly I will end with a quote from Baha'u'llah as follows: "Glory not in he who loves his country but in he who loves his kind." In my opinion love without justice is a betrayal of it.

So according to Baha'u'llah how are we going to solve world hunger? Economic inequality in the world? wars over resources? religious conflicts? Dictatorship and corrupt governments? How do we solve the global warming issue? illegal drugs?

I think I have addressed some of this by explaining the best I could about the principle of collective security. I would add here that rooting out corruption is a primary, vital task that must be accomplished.

The US voted for a complete idiot to be their president of course things are screwed up. The man is an incompetent businessman which have been part of running several companies into the ground, while blaming others for it. He have no political experience and is probably suffering from some psychological issues. And the US citizens is caught in a fear for any change that is considered even remotely humane, as the moment anyone even suggest some sort of political solidarity changes

I think you completely misunderstand what the essential problem is with President Trump. Trump is no idiot but a conniving narcissist and white supremacy racist who's Administration has committed many evil acts.

For one thing US journalists have uncovered documents proving what amounts to his Administration murdering legally children receiving life saving hospital care by ordering them out of the US within 33 days or deportation procedures will commence. One such victim was invited to the US by a research MD when she was a child so he could investigate her rare condition and was expressly given permission for that purpose by the US Government. From childhood to adulthood she was not only kept alive but meanwhile graduated from a university in the US. She also received an official letter from the Trump Administration ordering her out of the US within 33 days. Her research MD was interviewed by an investigative journalist TV a few days ago who said if she is forced to return to Guatemala it would be a death sentence within a short period of time.

As a result of such exposure the Trump Administration said her case was simply transferred to ICE yet ICE was officially quoted saying it had no authority to keep her in the US so their reply was NO! for her to remain in the US for any reason.

A US Congressman attempted to intercede on her behalf but thus far unsuccessfully. So Nimos! How do you negotiate or reason with pure EVIL? You are ill informed if you imagine the only problem with Trump is that he is, or was, an unsuccessful businessman or is incompetent. In my opinion Trump is akin to Hitler.

I have not the strength or fortitude to further think or write about Trump! Even if Trump is not reelected he will continue with his own news media and following in the US to stir up trouble! For all I know Trump may not even accept the results of the 2020 Presidential Election but I don't think that would prevent him from not being elected.

Lastly, are you not familiar that the US has a racist past in its history? It is to those elements in the electorate that Trump appeals to!

 

[Nimos]

For one thing that the nations of the world should only have enough armaments to secure order within their own boarders and that if any nation should rise up against another its government should be crushed by an international peace keeping force.

How would you enforce it or even organize it on a global scale? Who decide how much military is needed to secure ones borders? There are roughly 1.4 billion Chinese, so obviously they would demand a rather huge army, including all the equipment needed for such. Whereas the US only have 325 million, just to compare those two countries. Do you honestly think that either of them would agree to any fixed size army, type of equipment etc? And at the same time, allow foreign observers to make sure that each of them keep their promises? And if each nation just have enough military to defend themselves how are they going to enforce an international peace keeping force?

Also knowing that all nations don't share each other views on what the right thing to do in the world is, just look at the mess in Afghanistan with US and some other nations on one side fighting the terrorist and Russia supporting Assad on the other side, while the US and Russia is not directly at war.

And what should happen if China decided that they were not going to follow the rules? Should the peace keeping force then invade them or how exactly is that going to work? You know just as well as me, that none of the major powers in the world hardly follow any of the rules they make so its not unreasonable to assume that most of them, if not all are not able to stick to whatever they would agree on, but also that it would be near impossible to imagine them even coming to an agreement in the first place. As I said earlier all these things said by these prophets are all good intentions, but offers no solution. Its like me saying that "All countries in the world have to get rid of government corruption, because that would be good" most people would probably agree that its a good idea, but just as the prophet I offer no solution, its just a well intended saying.

I think you completely misunderstand what the essential problem is with President Trump. Trump is no idiot but a conniving narcissist and white supremacy racist who's Administration has committed many evil acts.

All the stuff Trump does and those you mention here, I simply add together in the word "idiot"

For one thing US journalists have uncovered documents proving what amounts to his Administration murdering legally children receiving life saving hospital care by ordering them out of the US within 33 days or deportation procedures will commence. One such victim was invited to the US by a research MD when she was a child so he could investigate her rare condition and was expressly given permission for that purpose by the US Government. From childhood to adulthood she was not only kept alive but meanwhile graduated from a university in the US. She also received an official letter from the Trump Administration ordering her out of the US within 33 days. Her research MD was interviewed by an investigative journalist TV a few days ago who said if she is forced to return to Guatemala it would be a death sentence within a short period of time.

As a result of such exposure the Trump Administration said her case was simply transferred to ICE yet ICE was officially quoted saying it had no authority to keep her in the US so their reply was NO! for her to remain in the US for any reason.

We have cases like that in Denmark as well, where people which really need our help is sent back. I might remember wrong, but I seem to believe that we had one that were send back, but only if he could get hold of some certain medicin that he required. And some journalists traveled to him to see how he were doing, and as expected, the medicin he needed were not available there, now its some time ago, so I can't remember if he were allowed back or if it were just to bad for him. So these things happens else where as well, probably people in the US or most other countries might not hear about it, as US and their president is obviously more in the spotlight than other nations are. It not to defend Trump and what he is doing, just that these things happens in other countries as well. And to me its a result of how things are going in the world in general, lots of people live poor lives and therefore it causes them to flee to others countries, but as these numbers increases, people get worried about it and you have an increase in racism and people simply thinking that their country shouldn't allow more in, so you see an increase in strictness of the rules of who is allowed and who isn't and unfortunately you have people in need getting caught in these things.

A US Congressman attempted to intercede on her behalf but thus far unsuccessfully. So Nimos! How do you negotiate or reason with pure EVIL? You are ill informed if you imagine the only problem with Trump is that he is, or was, an unsuccessful businessman or is incompetent. In my opinion Trump is akin to Hitler.

Trump probably share his self confidence of always knowing best with Hitler. That everyone just have to do what he says, because he believe he is so much better than them, that the US is just so much better than everyone else etc. I do not however think that Trump is in for the same type of cleansing as Hitler was with a supreme race etc. To me what make Trump dangerous is because he is ill informed, have no experience with politics and his, as you say, narcissistic nature, is a cocktail for disaster. The issue is that the US population voted for him, how on Earth that could ever happen is as I explained in the last post, mostly because of the fear of socialism and communism or basically any change that would benefit the poorest Americans, which is so weird, taking into consideration that, they are very into nationalism and all that. But the moment it comes to doing something for their own people, they just seem to completely forget it.
I can only make some assumptions looking at how we do it in Denmark and the mentality of people here, compared to a huge amount of those in the US. I don't think there is hardly any Danes that would accept the amount of poverty that seem to be accepted in the US and the gap between rich and poor. That people can't receive healthcare when needed or that everyone shouldn't have access to good education regardless of how rich you are. To me the biggest difference is that the US citizens have to start looking at other nations especially those in Europe, if we can do it here, so can you. But if they are constantly misinformed about how things are in other countries, it will be very difficult to make changes.

This short animation highlight some of differences:

(The only thing I would add is that most students in Denmark will also take student loans, but that the interest on this loan is very low, I think its about 2% or something. Other than that its pretty accurate)

There is no reason to assume that the US couldn't have a similar system, they are just as rich as Denmark is. So the biggest difference is people themselves and the fear for "socialism" which is not what we have in Denmark. And that is apparently what a lot of people get mixed up, they really have no clue what socialism is.

Lastly, are you not familiar that the US has a racist past in its history? It is to those elements in the electorate that Trump appeals to!

This is a complicated topic as well. I am aware of the racist past in US history, but most countries have had that, Europe had slaves as well and didn't treat them well either. But I think a lot of the issues the US is facing is due to inequality and poverty being more common among the black Americans, which then lead to more crimes, which then lead to people pointing at them for causing problems, which then lead to racism. I might be wrong as its just my limited understanding of how it works in the US. But all studies shows that the more equal a society is, the better people are doing in general. Less crimes, better education, better healthcare, more happiness etc. To me the US is loosing so many of their people to how their system works, which then end up causing problems for their society later. They want to reduce all these bad things and improve on the good ones, changes are needed and until then nothing will change. And again, that the US voted for someone like Trump to be president is just crazy if you ask me. I know that the Clinton family have had their issues as well, which explain some of it. But still Trump apparently being seen as the best candidate among all of those available is slightly scary if you ask me.

 

[Trailblazer]

You just happen to be one of my favorite posters so I did not forget you; I just continue to be very busy trying to rent the house and other things. I also have to man my own forum and it has been busier lately although I do not expect that to last too long.

What do you mean everything goes, I really don't get that, do you mean sex outside marriage and that being disgusting? And when Islamic countries allow men to marriage children, then that is just all jolly good I suppose? or when priests have a go at the young boys?

It was so long ago, I forgot why I said that. No, I did not mean sex outside of marriage is disgusting per se, although I very much disapprove of it. Yes, priests going for sex with young boys is disgusting, but men marrying children in Islamic countries is not for sex. See where the mind of the Western man goes.

So what you are saying is that God make sure that religious people behave morally and not selfish or what exactly is the point with what you are writing here? How does an atheist behavior show it self to you? Because when a priest have a go at a young boy for instance, using his influence through his religious position to do these things, then that to me is immoral. Same goes when someone marriage a child, because that is what their religion say is ok. Are these people guided by God?

A lot of atheists are more moral than religious people. I think a Jewish poster on this forum posted that the most moral people are atheists and the highly religious. The middle of the road religious are not that moral because they do not take their religion very seriously.

I guess what I meant to convey is that religious people have the “potential” to be more moral than nonbelievers because they have laws in their religion and they have fear of God.

Unless you can proof that a soul exists then assuming that it is harmed is just not relevant. Its like me telling you, that if don't spend at least 2 hours a day naked in the sun, you will damage your aura and your really don't want that. Obviously you would not follow or agree with what im saying unless I can proof to you that an aura exists, everything else would be stupid.

Nobody can prove that the soul exists. Here is what Bahaullah wrote about the soul being a mystery, but he wrote a lot more about the function of the soul and its eternal destination.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

So the problem is the system not humans as I see it, as humans will adapt to whatever rules apply to us, but it just happens to be that the rules we have imposed or developed over time, is not well suited for securing the well being of all humans or even our planet. The reason for that, is most likely because its a system based on old ideas that is not easily changed as everyone is kept in a constant competition.

You are right that an economic system based upon old ideas will never work, because humanity has changed a lot and this is a new age. Of course that is the basic underpinning of the Baha’i Faith, a new world order that will replace the old one, but we see that the problem is a spiritual problem so people have to evolve spiritually in order for real change to take place. People have to care about the whole of humanity rather than just themselves and their country or city or family.

“The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is … essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. It is free from any form of ecclesiasticism, has neither priesthood nor rituals, and is supported exclusively by voluntary contributions made by its avowed adherents. Though loyal to their respective governments, though imbued with the love of their own country, and anxious to promote at all times, its best interests, the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected….”
The Promised Day Is Come, vi - vii

No it really doesn't matter, if we know who wrote it or not.Qur'an is based on the bible, so if the Bible is wrong, so is the Qur'an and since Muhammad didn't know Jesus or Moses either, then his credentials are as good as Baha'u'llahs and those that wrote the original Bible. Because you know that it was Muhammad that dictated it, what does that change?

The Qur’an is NOT based upon the Bible, not any more than the Baha’i Faith is based upon the Qur’an or the Bible. These are all separate Revelations from God.

There is a poster on my forum who keeps insisting that the Baha’i Faith is a sect of Islam and he is just wrong, dead wrong. Here is what I told him last night.

The Baha’i Faith is NO MORE an offshoot of Islam than Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism…. It is a SEPARATE religion revealed by a new Manifestation of God. Moses -- Judaism, Jesus -- Christianity, Muhammad -- Islam, Baha’u’llah -- The Baha’i Faith.

The Baha’i Faith is a separate religion, an independent religion, NOT associated with Islam. Jesus was a Jew and Baha’u’llah was a Muslim, but so what? The Baha’i Faith is not Islam anymore that Christianity is Judaism.

If their claim is of little importance, no one cares to question them. However if someone make an extraordinary claim then people will demand evidence. And if evidence are not or can not be presented then one ought to be skeptical about the claim. And its fairly obvious that Baha'u'llah make some extraordinary claims, so we should expect the evidence to be of equal quality.

I fully agree. An extraordinary claim require extraordinary evidence.

How each of us look at these evidence is clearly difference as pretty much all the stuff you call evidence is actually claims.

NO, my evidence is NOT the claims. It would be circular reasoning to believe someone was a Messenger of God just because He said so, but it is not circular reasoning because there is evidence that can be used to support His claim. Anyone can say that they are a Messenger of God but why would I believe them without a lot of evidence to back up that claim?

As I said before, Baha’u’llah had a good character, an important mission on earth that was completed successfully, and scriptures that contain valuable information about God and other things we need to know in order to fulfill the purpose for our existence. Those scriptures have social teachings and laws for this new age in this new age and the blueprint instructions humanity needs to build the Kingdom of God on earth. There is a religion established by His followers who are living according to the teachings and laws and completing the tasks assigned by Him. Baha’u’llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies that refer to the Messiah and the return of Christ, many of which are so specific and that they could not be fulfilled by anyone else in the future. On top of all that, Baha’u’llah made many predictions that came to pass.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you know that it came from Baha'u'llah because he said it. You choose to ALSO believe that Baha'u'llah was a messenger of God and therefore draw the conclusion that he is telling the truth.

NO, I do not believe it came from God because Baha’u’llah said so because that would be circular reasoning. I did not CHOOSE to believe that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God like I would choose chocolate ice cream over vanilla. I put a lot into researching the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, His scriptures, what others wrote about Him, the Bible prophecies He fulfilled, etc. before I believed His claim.

But besides knowing that if came from Baha'u'llah, nothing is known for certain, its purely based on faith, which you have no way to verify. And that is why I say that I don't think you approach it with the correct amount of skepticism or critical thinking. But merely jump to conclusions, it is not how skepticism and critical thinking works.

No, it is NOT purely based upon faith, because the evidence I posted in the previous post is verifiable evidence. I cannot prove is that Baha’u’llah received a Revelation from God so that is based upon faith and the evidence and my reasoning applied to the evidence.

No, that Baha'u'llah knows better than everyone else, just because he say so and therefore people follow him. Despite there being no evidence for him knowing the truth or even being who he claim to be.

I do not want to beat that dead horse anymore. You already know my position.It is not because He says so and there is evidence to back up His claim.

The God of the Qur'an is based on that of the Bible and if the Bible is wrong then there is no reason to assume that the Qur'an.ain't also. Both the OT and the Qur'an claim to be the true word of God, and since stories in the Qur'an comes from the OT, it would mean that if the OT is false, then the Qur'an is also filled with errors.

I will have to plead ignorance about what is in the Qur’an. I don’t know the stories. I will only say as I said in the previous post that the Qur’an is a separate revelation from God, it is all new. It was not plagiarized from the OT. Sure, some things are similar to the Bible but that is because it comes from the same God.

It is sad that all you can SEE is the Bible. It is as if you have blinders on. This is kind of funny considering you are an atheist

Because as I wrote just above, these religions are connected. The Qur'an would not exists without the OT and my guess is that Bahai faith wouldn't either. So if you start going through each of them and start saying that OT is not the word of God, then you have no reason to trust the Quran either and therefore, you eventually have no other guideline for who God is than what Baha'u'llah claims.

You are correct in saying these religions are all connected, that is what progressive revelation is, one religion building upon another, like successive chapters in a book build to a climax. The difference is that revelation never ends like a book ends, it just keeps going forever.

Moses had to come and prepare the way for Jesus, and Jesus had to prepare the way for Muhammad and especially for Baha’u’llah.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Baha’u’llah was the Spirit of truth. He has guided us to all the truth we are ready to hear in this age, but in the future another Manifestation of God will come and reveal more truth, and so on and so forth.

But as you have already said earlier you don't really care about where Baha'u'llah got all these things from and don't care to read the bible or the Quran, you just trust that Baha'u'llah is telling the truth and as I wrote to you in an earlier reply.

I do not need to read the Bible or the Qur’an in order to validate Baha’u’llah. Baha’ullah did not “get” anything He wrote from those scriptures; He got it from God.

The bible does not talk about Baha'u'llah and that this is out of contexts. So when you say you are skeptic and critical towards your faith, I have to say, I don't really follow you. Because if you think these old texts are not really true or the word of God, then why would Baha'u'llah even reference them or even care to bring the different religions together. When they are clearly based on false things that we can't trust.

The Bible does refer to Baha’u’llah in prophecies that refer to the Jewish Messiah and the return of Christ. Otherwise, there would be no reason to reference Baha’u’llah because the Bible represents SEPARATE revelations from God.

Baha’u’llah referenced the Bible because the Bible is the Word of God in the following sense:

In studying the Bible Bahá'ís must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scriptures are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, is not wholly authentic.
(28 May 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet....

...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)
The Bible

Now this is obviously a weird example since we are talking about a human, but when we talk about God, we look at what he have done throughout history, because it tell us something about him and whether he actually live up to what people claim about it. Therefore what God cared about 2000 years ago or 500 years ago matters.

The thing is, we do not know that God cared about what people wrote in the Bible because the Bible is a Pandora’s Box. Moreover, the Bible was suited to the times and the people who lived in those times, so it does not represent the way God is relating to humans NOW. It would be like holding a grudge because someone did something to you when you were a child. How long do you think it is healthy to hold onto that? Moreover, if the people living back then deserved God’s wrath, that is naught but manifest justice, as Baha'u'llah says about these days, so that does not make God less then benevolent.

And that is why its so strange that you just throw it away like it not important, that God endorsed slavery, killing of children and all the other stuff he have done seems to not fit the God you believe in. Simply because you don't want it to be.

But did God do those things, or did people just write them in the OT? I know what God is because Bahaullah describes God, so I do not care what people wrote about God 4000 years ago. Obviously YMMV. If you want to hang onto the distant past that is your choice.

But at the same time there seem to be no issue maintaining the claim that he is all good. You are not the only religious person that does this, pretty much every believer does it, to me that is a lack of critical thinking, as I have already told you, that I think religious people throw away the moment they talk about their beliefs.

If God exists God is all good. What humans do is to define good according to their own ego and then expect God to live up to their expectations, as if they could EVER know more than an All-Knowing God about what is good.

Im sorry but there really ain't. First of all NDE stands for "near death experience" if im not mistaken. What do you expect would happen if a brain starts to loose oxygen and the body start to collapse? Im not a doctor, but I will make a guess here and say that I would expect a lot of weird stuff to happen to a person's brain under such circumstances and I would not be surprised if those that experienced it would tell some weird stuff afterwards. However it does not proof an afterlife. Spirits and mediums is not something I consider valid either. Im sorry.

There is an atheist on my forum who says the same thing and I told him today that I am not beating this dead horse with him anymore. I am tired of hearing the same old thing about the oxygen and the brain. It’s old hat. Some people just do not want to face the fact that there is an afterlife and admittedly, it is an ominous thought. However, there is too much evidence that there is more to NDEs than a brain deprived of oxygen. People who were declared dead recall seeing things an unconscious person could not see, so that means that they were able to see without the brain functioning at all, because it was the soul which had left the body that could see.

So the way I left it with my atheist friend is that he will have to learn the hard way that there IS an afterlife; that means he will learn after he dies and finds out.

As for spirits and mediums, what they report is eerily similar to what little Baha’u’llah wrote about the afterlife, so that is one reason I lend them credence. They also use evidentiary approach in that the departed spirits said things to family members about their life on earth that the medium could not have possibly ever known.

It is not in the bible directly, but the way you are saved according to some peoples understand of it is, that if you accept Jesus as your savior, then that is enough. The ancient people just believed that to be true and I think a lot of people even today believe it. A lot of convicts seem to pick up faith in jail, so maybe they hope to be saved as well, don't know.

So do you believe that just because it is in the NT? That is cherry picking because Jesus said that works are necessary, not just belief in Him. Matthew 25:31-46.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Of course, most Christians deny what is plainly written in the NT because Paul and the Church convinced them they are saved by faith alone.

 

[Nimos]

You just happen to be one of my favorite posters so I did not forget you; I just continue to be very busy trying to rent the house and other things. I also have to man my own forum and it has been busier lately although I do not expect that to last too long.

No worries, Ill try to leave some of the topics and narrow it down a bit, so the posts don't get to long

The Baha’i Faith is NO MORE an offshoot of Islam than Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism…. It is a SEPARATE religion revealed by a new Manifestation of God. Moses -- Judaism, Jesus -- Christianity, Muhammad -- Islam, Baha’u’llah -- The Baha’i Faith.

I would probably agree with you that Bahai faith is not all that well connected to the others, as the rest are with each other. However the Quran is filled with stories taken from the bible, there are variations, but there is no doubt that these are related and that the Quran depends on the Bible, which make sense since its written later. Which also makes sense why the Bible keep referring back to the OT, because these are connected, now one of the reasons for this, is because without the OT there wouldn't be creation story in bible. So it is needed for the Bible to make sense and is one of the reasons all these texts are connected. And obviously because a lot of what is written in the NT refer to something or someone in the OT. And since its fairly obvious that the Quran gets a lot of its stories from the bible, it is connected to this one. Keep in mind that Moses and Jesus are mentioned more times in the Quran than Muhammad is, and to me probably also explain why you rarely see Muslims burn the Bible, whenever someone decide to burn or destroy the Quran.

It is sad that all you can SEE is the Bible. It is as if you have blinders on. This is kind of funny considering you are an atheist

No the reason, I refer to the bible is because that is the one I have read and studied the most and also because, as mention above the Quran gets a lot of stories from it. So whether the Muslims see Jesus as a prophet rather than God or the son of God, makes little difference, the story for the most part is the same. Mary gave birth to Jesus etc etc. Whether some Muslims think the angel that gave her the news were the archangel Gabriel or not, matters little as long as we are not discussing separate verses or Muhammad in particular. but rather God in general, again as I wrote just above, Moses and Jesus is mentioned more in the Quran than Muhammad is. The reason you don't see or know about these similarities or connections, is probably because as you have said several times, you see no need to read these things:

"I do not need to read the Bible or the Qur’an in order to validate Baha’u’llah. Baha’ullah did not “get” anything He wrote from those scriptures; He got it from God."

But the God you are talking about is (partly) based on these writings. The moment Baha'u'llah refer to verses about Jesus, Moses, Muhammad or anyone else that is considered a prophet, they come from these texts that you think for the most part is irrelevant. To me, that is sort of like me claiming to know the truth about evolution based purely on someones opinion about it, as I can't be bothered reading any of the stuff people have written about it that let us to knowing that its a fact. Why? Because its just old stuff and this person that shares his opinions, just know all of it anyway. That is not a sensible way to approach things. Especially not one that can lead to so many difference understandings or interpretations as religious texts can.

You are correct in saying these religions are all connected, that is what progressive revelation is, one religion building upon another, like successive chapters in a book build to a climax. The difference is that revelation never ends like a book ends, it just keeps going forever.

No, according to Islam, there is not going to be anything after the Quran, it is considered the final revelation from God. Which is most likely also one of the reasons muslims have a hard time with Baha'u'llah and the Bahai faith I could imagine. I fully understand that you are into all this progressive revelation, because without it the whole Bahai faith would collapse, since it is not in general a shared view among the other religions and especially not Islam. So you wrote earlier if I recall correctly, that you found the Quran to be more trustworthy than the Bible, but does that also apply to the Quran being the final revelation? I assume that they got that part wrong?

NOW. It would be like holding a grudge because someone did something to you when you were a child. How long do you think it is healthy to hold onto that?

There is no comparison between this. But lets play with the idea anyway. If someone hurt me as a child and this person were fully aware that it was wrong, then I would hold the grudge forever. Obviously depending on what this "hurt" was. As in some cases an apology might be enough. But we are not talking about a human being here, which is why I say that there is no way to compare it. Because the claim is that this God is all good, all knowing and all powerful. The only way for such being to hurt someone is because:

1. All the claims are wrong about God.
2. God doesn't exists
3. The hurting was done on purpose.
4. God doesn't care about humans when it comes to good and evil as we define them.

If you want to keep all these claims or attribute for God, you have to choose either 1,3 or 4. I don't see any other options. Do you?

But did God do those things, or did people just write them in the OT? I know what God is because Bahaullah describes God, so I do not care what people wrote about God 4000 years ago.

If those that wrote the OT just made up all these things, remember God is extremely chatty in it, nothing like in the NT where he hardly speak. So pretty much the whole OT is just wrong as we would have to disregard all verses where God talks as these would have to be considered wrong or made up as well. There would be no commandments. The OT would be reduced to a pixi book where nothing made sense. An alternative is to believe that God allowed the writers of the OT to just write whatever none sense about him as they wanted, of how he slaughters people. Which leaves everyone reading it at a later point completely clueless of who God is and that he simply didn't care for approximately 2000 years, until he decided that Baha'u'llah should come and reveal more stuff, that hardly convinces anyone taking the amount of followers into account. I sorry to say it, but how stupid would an all knowing God have to be to do something like that? And even if we assume that Baha'u'llah is correct, we still know nothing about God, absolutely nothing. How did he create the world? Did Baha'u'llah write exactly how the creation happened and is it that of the Bible or the Quran? We might as well throw out the bible and the Quran based on what you are writing. That is why I object to what you are saying so much. And Im not talking about taking everything that is written in the bible literately, because it shouldn't. But it is for the most part rather obvious which part of it is supposedly metaphorically and which ain't, there are disagreements about this obviously, but it doesn't come close to what you are suggesting.

There is an atheist on my forum who says the same thing and I told him today that I am not beating this dead horse with him anymore. I am tired of hearing the same old thing about the oxygen and the brain. It’s old hat. Some people just do not want to face the fact that there is an afterlife and admittedly, it is an ominous thought.

You might think its beating a dead horse, but if you look at it closely, it does make rather good sense. So these are symptoms of brain hypoxia:

During recovery from brain hypoxia, people may experience several challenges. These typically resolve over time. They include:

• amnesia
• hallucinations
• insomnia
• memory loss
• mood changes
• muscle spasms and twitches
• personality changes
• seizures
• vision problems

Just looking at the list, it should be pretty obvious that the brain is not going to react well to this. And there is probably a whole lot of other things that can cause problems for the brain if the body suddenly shut down.

So do you believe that just because it is in the NT?

It depends how you read and understand the bible. Personally, I would believe Jesus and God over Paul, if I believed any of it. So I would assume that one would have to follow the laws of God as that according to God and Jesus is the only way to get saved.

 

[Trailblazer]

No worries, Ill try to leave some of the topics and narrow it down a bit, so the posts don't get to long .

Thanks, I am going to also try to hone in on your main points and keep my responses shorter.

However the Quran is filled with stories taken from the bible, there are variations, but there is no doubt that these are related and that the Quran depends on the Bible, which make sense since its written later.

Obviously you know more about what is in the Qur’an than I do. I do not know what you mean by “depends upon the Bible.” My point was that the Qur’an was a revelation to Muhammad, so the Qur’an was not plagiarism of the Bible.

Which also makes sense why the Bible keep referring back to the OT, because these are connected, now one of the reasons for this, is because without the OT there wouldn't be creation story in bible. So it is needed for the Bible to make sense and is one of the reasons all these texts are connected. And obviously because a lot of what is written in the NT refer to something or someone in the OT. No the reason, I refer to the bible is because that is the one I have read and studied the most and also because, as mention above the Quran gets a lot of stories from it.

Obviously to me, the OT is necessary for the NT to make sense because the OT refers to Jesus and predicts His coming. But also the OT is the necessary foundation for everything that comes after it, because it starts at the beginning of creation.

It could be that Moses and Jesus are mentioned more than Muhammad because they were key players in history and also because Muhammad was not going to talk Himself up and glorify Himself. When you say the Qur’an “gets stories from the Bible” I do not know if you mean it was plagiarized.

"I do not need to read the Bible or the Qur’an in order to validate Baha’u’llah. Baha’ullah did not “get” anything He wrote from those scriptures; He got it from God."

But the God you are talking about is (partly) based on these writings. The moment Baha'u'llah refer to verses about Jesus, Moses, Muhammad or anyone else that is considered a prophet, they come from these texts that you think for the most part is irrelevant.

You are talking about scriptures as if they are man-made stories of fiction. From my perspective as a Baha’i and a believer, God is not based upon any scriptures; rather, the scriptures reveal God through what is revealed by God to the Manifestation of God (Messengers/prophets). So, from my perspective, the moment Baha'u'llah refer to verses about Jesus, Moses, Muhammad or anyone else that is considered a prophet, Baha’u’llah is not referring to texts they are coming from, but rather to revelations Jesus, Moses, and Muhammad received from God. Baha’u’llah did not have to read previous scriptures in order to know what happened in the past because Baha’u’llah had the knowledge from God revealed to Him through the Holy Spirit.

No, according to Islam, there is not going to be anything after the Quran, it is considered the final revelation from God. Which is most likely also one of the reasons muslims have a hard time with Baha'u'llah and the Bahai faith I could imagine.

So what? That is what the adherents to all religions believe, that their Prophet and their religion is the last and final one, and they twist the meaning of their scriptures to say that, because no scriptures say that.

The Truth is the Truth and it cannot be contradictory. All the older religions cannot be that last and final religion unless the religions that came after theirs are false; so that is what they all believe. Jews believe Christianity is false and Christians believe that Islam is false. They HAVE TO believe this in order to preserve their position as the Only Way to God.

At least Islam recognizes Judaism and Christianity but Muslims also incorrectly believe theirs is the final religion. Seal of the Prophets only means Muhammad was the last Prophet in the Prophetic Cycle that began with Adam (Adamic Cycle); it did not mean no more Prophets would come after Muhammad. Moreover, Muslims believe in the return of Jesus or in the Mahdi, depending on whether they are Sunni or Shia, so they DO believe that anther holy man will come after Muhammad; so why not call Him a Prophet, that is just a label meaning He was sent by God.

Obviously all the older religions cannot be the last and final one unless only one of them is a true religion. That means that they all have a false belief. Baha’i solves that problem by saying they are all true religions but the Baha’i Faith is the most recent religion from God. But we do not claim to be the last and final religion, just the current religion.

So you wrote earlier if I recall correctly, that you found the Quran to be more trustworthy than the Bible, but does that also apply to the Quran being the final revelation? I assume that they got that part wrong?

I find the Qur’an more trustworthy because of how it came to be recorded, by scribes who were dictated to by Muhammad; by contrast, nobody knows the authors of most of the Bible. No, as I said above, I do not believe that the Qur’an is the final revelation. The Revelation of Baha’u’llah is the last revelation from God but not the final one.

But we are not talking about a human being here, which is why I say that there is no way to compare it. Because the claim is that this God is all good, all knowing and all powerful. The only way for such being to hurt some is because:

1. The claims all wrong about it.
2. God doesn't exists
3. The hurting was done on purpose.
4. God doesn't care about humans when it comes to good and evil, as we define them.

If you want to keep all these claims or attribute for God, you have to choose either 1,3 or 4. I don't see any other options. Do you?

I am not sure what you mean by “hurt” but IF God did some hurtful things in the OT, I have another possibility:

5. 4000 years ago humans and the world they lived in were a lot different so punishment was necessary to keep humans in line. Customs were also different so laws were different, as we discussed before.

It could also be 1, but I can tell you it is not 2, 3, or 4.

If those that wrote the OT just made up all these things, remember God is extremely chatty in it, nothing like in the NT where he hardly speak. So pretty much the whole OT is just wrong as we would have to disregard all verses where God talks as these would have to be considered wrong or made up as well. There would be no commandments in creation etc. The OT would be reduced to a pixi book where nothing made sense. An alternative is to believe that God allowed the writers of the OT to just write whatever none sense about him as they wanted, of how he slaughters people. Which leaves everyone reading it at a later point completely clueless of who God is and that he simply didn't care for approximately 2000 years, until he decided that Baha'u'llah should come and reveal more stuff, that hardly convinces anyone taking the amount of followers into account. I sorry to say it, but how stupid would an all knowing God have to be to do something like that?

I understand your point, but why can’t there be a middle ground? Why can’t some of the OT commandments be from God and other ones parts of the OT be what people wrote, maybe to suit their purposes? Also, God did not wait till Baha’u’llah came, He sent Jesus in the interim to teach love and forgiveness. There is not hate or killing in the NT is there, Mr. Expert Bible scholar?

Here is more on the Baha’i perspective of the OT from an authoritative source:

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh
. (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

In studying the Bible Bahá'ís must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scriptures are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, is not wholly authentic.
(28 May 1984 to an individual believer)
The Bible

Mírza Abú'l-Fadl was praised and recommended by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and has been justifiably called the most learned and erudite Bahá'í scholar.

Regarding the Old Testament, Fadl said that it contained two types of teaching: a) revelation from God, such as the 10 commandments of Moses, the Psalms of David and the books of the Prophets, and b) historical information, such as the books Joshua, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles "...which contain no statement, sign or hint of being divine speech and therefore should not be considered as revelation."[17]
A Bahá'í View of the Bible

And even if we assume that Baha'u'llah is correct, we still know nothing about God, absolutely nothing. How did he create the world? Did Baha'u'llah write exactly how the creation happened and is it that of the Bible or the Quran?

Baha’u’llah wrote that God and His Creation have always existed. I can post the passages to you later if you want, because I don’t want this post to exceed the 12,000 character limit.

So God did not create Creation because Creation has always existed, but it in incongruent with science to say that life on Earth has always existed so I think the Baha’i position would be that it evolved slowly over time, although humans have always been a separate species than the animals, since we have a rational soul and they do not, they have an animal spirit.

You might think its beating a dead horse, but if you look at it closely, it does make rather good sense. So these are symptoms of brain hypoxia:

During recovery from brain hypoxia, people may experience several challenges. These typically resolve over time. They include:
· amnesia
· hallucinations
· insomnia
· memory loss
· mood changes
· muscle spasms and twitches
· personality changes
· seizures
· vision problems

Just looking at the list, it should be pretty obvious that the brain is not going to react well to this. And there is probably a whole lot of other things that can cause problems for the brain if the body suddenly shut down.

But even if that is true, logically speaking, that does not mean that brain hypoxia is responsible for all NDEs. There are things about NDEs that cannot be explained by it.

It depends how you read and understand the bible. Personally, I would believe Jesus and God over Paul, if I believed any of it. So I would assume that one would have to follow the laws of God as that according to God and Jesus is the only way to get saved.

Do you mean saved from original sin so you won’t go to hell?

 

[Muffled]

I decided to share a paragraph from a book written by a German Baha’i entitled “the light shineth in darkness”. The paragraph is located in a section of his book entitled “Belief and Unbelief Today”, after which I made some comments.

“Baha’u’llah’s call to the leaders of his time remained unheeded. None of the rulers addressed by Baha’u’llah was mindful of his warning and counsels. Today we are experiencing the significance of those monitory words. It becomes more and more obvious that we are living in a period of crisis, the most critical phase in the history of mankind and that the future of mankind is threatened as never before by its own destructive forces, that man is on the way to a catastrophe, to self-annihilation. Since the report of the Club of Rome about the situation of mankind has been published and become a bestseller, wider circles of the population are now aware of what eminent scientists and philosophers have been observing for a long time: mankind is on the way to destruction, if it does not come to a fundamental change in consciousness.” (Udo Schaefer, the light shineth in darkness, pp. 12-13)​

The reference to the report of the “Club of Rome” is dated in 1972. The question is has the crisis lessened or has it even deepened? As a Baha’i I have faith that God has provided for a peaceful way to disarm the “destructive forces” of mankind. Nevertheless, I expect even greater destruction to ensue before that occurs as a result of what is being reported in the mainstream news of the world. I believe an Old World Order is dying and a New World Order is struggling to be born. In general, on a lesser scale, I think many transitions from old to new have occurred in the world. However, I think if safe to say that today the scale of destruction versus the potential for peace and prosperity is unprecedented.

Lastly, there is a great deal in the aforementioned book I did not comment on. One lingering principle I seem to recall is the fact that it will take more than intellectual endeavors for humankind to work his way out of darkness and into the light! Also, that Baha’u’llah stated that if His Revelation from God was withdrawn humankind would perish.

The "B" man had a revelation from God or claimed to? That is news to me.

 

[Muffled]

Now that the Revelation has been given, it cannot be withdrawn.

It can be totally ignored.

We have reached an era where civilization can be destroyed by
Mutually Assured Destruction (nuclear war)
Conventional Global War (China, Russia, US, India, Pakistan, with allies)
Climate Change
Polution

Huston, we have a problem.

I believe that he must have not understood the Book of the Revelation of Jesus. Man is going to be in the New Jerusalem with pearly gates and golden streets. The "B" man can't change that.

 

[Muffled]

6billion people will die in my life time

the planet can sustain only 9billion

if I live to 90yrs.....there will be 12billion

the spirit and intellect of Man will gel only a little bit more

Man as a species is terminal

I believe we are terminal until we get eternal life then we are not.

 

[JJ50]

We should live this life to the full, I am of the opinion when we die, end of story. I hope I am right, the idea of any afterlife involving the unpleasant Biblical god would be one's worst nightmare!

 

[Thief]

We should live this life to the full, I am of the opinion when we die, end of story. I hope I am right, the idea of any afterlife involving the unpleasant Biblical god would be one's worst nightmare!

how about?....spending the rest of eternity
with people that think and feel as you do
and no One is Charge

what?.....no order or discipline in the next life?

we have hierarchy in this life
I suspect Hierarchy in the next

fearing God is not a bad thing
we humans fear what we cannot outrun or subdue

but eternal darkness is physically real
if you escape the grave.....fine and good

but you cannot escape heaven
or hell